School Choice

[chanel]

A State Senate panel unanimously approved a measure on Thursday that would allow parents to use taxpayer money to transfer their kids out of failing public schools to private institutions. In an unusual move, the vote took place outside the State House annex when the committee chairman, Senator Raymond Lesniak (D), said he wanted to allow hundreds of supportive demonstrators an opportunity to watch the hearing. The regular hearing room was mostly filled with opponents of the legislation.

The measure, if approved by the full Legislature and signed by the governor, would provide corporations the incentive of state tax credits for donating into a scholarship fund. Parents would then use the scholarship money to pay for their kid's tuition at a private school. Supporters hope 4,000 students can take advantage of the program by the time the next school year begins in September.

School Choice Bill Heads To Full Senate Vote - New Jersey 101.5 FM

How does it work in your state? Can vouchers be used for religious schools? Can anyone qualify or is it just based on need?

 

[editec]

In the longer run this idea might have merit.

In the shorter run it's going to be hard on public education, I suspect.

Public school have no choice but to take those kids whose education costs more than it does for average kids.

And if people can freely choose to go to schools where such kids are excluded, then the average cost per student for public schools will rise even as the overall revenues brought in through a voucher system will go down.

But public schools have non-operating costs (like retirement contracts) that won't go down, even if the number of students declines.

So, from a professional teacher's standpoint, vouchers might be a grand idea.

But the general public will, I think, in the aggregate, end up paying more for educating their kids.

 

[RadiomanATL]

I'm glad my children go to private school.

Public schools are in the shitter around here. 300 teachers laid off in my county, class sizes now at 40 students per teacher, at the middle school level art, music and athletics are being canceled, and they are discussing the idea of going to a 4 day school week at 9 hours per day and canceling PE.

So they're going to put 40 middle schoolers in a room with one teacher, not allow them a physical release through PE, not allow them a creative release through art or music, and basically lecture them on the "3 R's" for 9 hours.

Kids need more than that. Much, much, much more. They are setting up these kids for failure, not success.

 

[chanel]

It's an interesting idea to let corporations fund "scholarships" as opposed to checks issued from the govt. That's probably how they got around the religion part.

It will be a great boon to Catholic schools, which I support. I can't imagine having to send my child to a school in Newark or Camden.

Radioman - We laid off 36 teachers in my district. I'm not sure what the impact will be on class size, but I don't think it will be up to 40 kids. However, they have eliminated those programs you mentioned in the middle schools. That's where kids get in the most trouble in my opinion (and lose interest in school). Sad.

 

[jillian]

In the longer run this idea might have merit.

In the shorter run it's going to be hard on public education, I suspect.

Public school have no choice but to take those kids whose education costs more than it does for average kids.

And if people can freely choose to go to schools where such kids are excluded, then the average cost per student for public schools will rise even as the overall revenues brought in through a voucher system will go down.

But public schools have non-operating costs (like retirement contracts) that won't go down, even if the number of students declines.

So, from a professional teacher's standpoint, vouchers might be a grand idea.

But the general public will, I think, in the aggregate, end up paying more for educating their kids.

the people who push vouchers generally do so because they WANT to suck funds from public education and have us pay for their kids' parochial school and destroy what they consider 'secular' education.

and you're right of course, public schools have no choice about the kids they take...

 

[Si modo]

In the longer run this idea might have merit.

In the shorter run it's going to be hard on public education, I suspect.

Public school have no choice but to take those kids whose education costs more than it does for average kids.

And if people can freely choose to go to schools where such kids are excluded, then the average cost per student for public schools will rise even as the overall revenues brought in through a voucher system will go down.

But public schools have non-operating costs (like retirement contracts) that won't go down, even if the number of students declines.

So, from a professional teacher's standpoint, vouchers might be a grand idea.

But the general public will, I think, in the aggregate, end up paying more for educating their kids.

the people who push vouchers generally do so because they WANT to suck funds from public education and have us pay for their kids' parochial school and destroy what they consider 'secular' education.

and you're right of course, public schools have no choice about the kids they take...

I disagree. I don't think those who are in favor of vouchers are because they want to hurt public schools. That's an odd motivation for anyone (although there are freaks in the world). They see public education continuing to decline and are concerned about already having at least one generation of idiots as a product of that.

Perhaps their motivation is not a destructive one, rather it is a constructive one. But, I suppose we all will project a bit onto those with whom we disagree.

 

[editec]

In the longer run this idea might have merit.

In the shorter run it's going to be hard on public education, I suspect.

Public school have no choice but to take those kids whose education costs more than it does for average kids.

And if people can freely choose to go to schools where such kids are excluded, then the average cost per student for public schools will rise even as the overall revenues brought in through a voucher system will go down.

But public schools have non-operating costs (like retirement contracts) that won't go down, even if the number of students declines.

So, from a professional teacher's standpoint, vouchers might be a grand idea.

But the general public will, I think, in the aggregate, end up paying more for educating their kids.

the people who push vouchers generally do so because they WANT to suck funds from public education and have us pay for their kids' parochial school and destroy what they consider 'secular' education.

and you're right of course, public schools have no choice about the kids they take...

Yeah that's true.

The school voucher idea is just one aspect of the neo-cons's plans to starve off government until it is meaningless.

But this plan resonates with more people than just neo-cons.

And the reason for that is far too many people know perfectly well that the public school system is failing their kids.

Now obviously not every school system is failing, but enough are that the neo-cons have a bludgeon to use against public education.

 

[RadiomanATL]

the people who push vouchers generally do so because they WANT to suck funds from public education and have us pay for their kids' parochial school and destroy what they consider 'secular' education.

and you're right of course, public schools have no choice about the kids they take...

Not the people I know.

I'm for vouchers. Not because I want to destroy public education, but because by and large the state and local governments refuse to change the way public education is handled.

And you kind of touched on it. Public schools have no choice about the kids they take. Private schools do.

When I was in middle and high school, the degenerates and habitual troublemakers were shipped to their own school. Can't do that anymore. I can see why people would have a problem with doing it, but putting them back in the general population of a school doesn't work either. So now the troublemakers continue to disturb things, and the teachers really can't do a damn thing about it anymore. At least in the two school districts that I am familiar with. Brings the whole thing down. The teacher has to teach to the lowest common denominator, and education suffers.

In my daughter's private school, you only get so many discipline warnings and then you're out. For good. And the teachers expect the students to keep up with the curriculum, not the other way around.

Anecdote time: My daughter went to public school for kindergarten and first grade. During her first grade year there were groups of kids that you could tell were just plain raising themselves, with no parental involvement. One of the kids from that group went around calling all the caucasian girls in his class (my daughter included) "fucking cracker sluts." First freaking grade, and I don't think he even knew what the terms meant. He had obviously heard it from older brothers or sisters. Although we went to the administration, the school couldn't really do anything because the parents refuse to be involved at any level in these kids lives. And the parents expected the school to essentially be a babysitter. Add to this that while my first grader was going to this school, she tried to emulate the "cool" kids in her class, with the finger wagging, hand on hip "oh no I AIN'T gonna do what you say" disrespect for adults.

It was then that I decided that no matter what the cost, my children would not be going to public school while this crap was going on. This past year in private school, my daughter's attitude has changed dramatically for the better, the worst the "problem kids" do are skip lunch lines or whisper in class, and she is actually having to WORK to learn, as the teacher is stretching her capabilities.

Change the tail wagging the dog in public education in discipline and curriculum, and I would send my kids back to public schools in a heartbeat because I do believe that the diversity they would encounter there would help them grow tremendously. I don't see that happening any time soon though.

 

[chanel]

Editec - this is being spear headed by the Black Ministers Council. It is not the "neo-cons' This program will only benefit poor children in failing schools. Who could oppose that?

 

[Si modo]

If I had kids, there is no way I would send them to public school. I would look into private schools, look at the tuition, thenl ook at my local taxes. I would want something done about that wasted money. If tuition was too prohibitive for my budget, I would home school - not because of any religion, rather for a decent education.

 

[Big Black Dog]

It seems to me that the public schools are concentrating on everything except for education these days. Put that concept on top of the mismanaged funding for our public schools and it's a receipe for failure. Here is my example... Several years ago, two of the schools in my rural area were merged because funding was inadequate for both schools. Town "A" school students now ride the bus to town "B" to attend school. They have decided to build a new sports complex and pour money into the football field instead of hiring more staff to deal with the increase in students and doctor up the classrooms to meet the needs of the students. So, now, there are large classroom sizes, not enough teachers and the school is very crowded. It all points to mismanagement. I contend that there is more mismanagement in the public school systems than the lack of funding. What funds are available are not used wisely thus the students are the ones who suffer in the long run.

 

[chanel]

Excellent Education for Everyone (E3) is a 501(c) 3 non-profit organization devoted to improving urban public education through the powers of parental school choice. E3 promotes school choice in several different ways. E3 is organized into four major groups, each operating to achieve particular school choice goals. Each functions both autonomously and to support the activities of the other groups.

E3 (Excellent Education for Everyone) E3 Board

The Executive Director and several members of the Board are black. Why do libs insist on knowing what is "best" for other people's children? Insulting in the least.

And yes count - the avg. teacher salary in NJ is $55K, but the average classroom cost in these urban schools is close to $400K. Where's the money going? (Rhetorical question of course.)

 

[jillian]

It seems to me that the public schools are concentrating on everything except for education these days. Put that concept on top of the mismanaged funding for our public schools and it's a receipe for failure. Here is my example... Several years ago, two of the schools in my rural area were merged because funding was inadequate for both schools. Town "A" school students now ride the bus to town "B" to attend school. They have decided to build a new sports complex and pour money into the football field instead of hiring more staff to deal with the increase in students and doctor up the classrooms to meet the needs of the students. So, now, there are large classroom sizes, not enough teachers and the school is very crowded. It all points to mismanagement. I contend that there is more mismanagement in the public school systems than the lack of funding. What funds are available are not used wisely thus the students are the ones who suffer in the long run.

i have to wonder if you have children in school. i can't speak to places where the educational system is a failure... and, to be fair, the kids at the G&T end of the system get a great education, so my pov might be a little skewed.. plus, ny has done some excellent things.

but there were even larger classroom sizes years ago... and there wasn't the same assistance for kids who needed remedial help.

just sayin'.

 

[RadiomanATL]

and, to be fair, the kids at the G&T end of the system get a great education, so my pov might be a little skewed..

Whats G&T?

 

[uscitizen]

Darned socialistic school system.

If you cannot afford to educate your children then don't have any.

 

[PoliticalChic]

A State Senate panel unanimously approved a measure on Thursday that would allow parents to use taxpayer money to transfer their kids out of failing public schools to private institutions. In an unusual move, the vote took place outside the State House annex when the committee chairman, Senator Raymond Lesniak (D), said he wanted to allow hundreds of supportive demonstrators an opportunity to watch the hearing. The regular hearing room was mostly filled with opponents of the legislation.

The measure, if approved by the full Legislature and signed by the governor, would provide corporations the incentive of state tax credits for donating into a scholarship fund. Parents would then use the scholarship money to pay for their kid's tuition at a private school. Supporters hope 4,000 students can take advantage of the program by the time the next school year begins in September.

School Choice Bill Heads To Full Senate Vote - New Jersey 101.5 FM

How does it work in your state? Can vouchers be used for religious schools? Can anyone qualify or is it just based on need?

I wonder how the folks who object to the above rationalize the success of another government plan that attached funds to the student and allowed the student to attend any school of their choice, private, parochial, public, whatever...

It was called the G.I. Bill.


"The G.I. Bill (officially titled Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944, P.L. 78-346, 58 Stat. 284m) was an omnibus bill that provided college or vocational education for returning World War II veterans (commonly referred to as G.I.s) as well as one year of unemployment compensation. It also provided many different types of loans for returning veterans to buy homes and start businesses. Since the original act, the term has come to include other veteran benefit programs created to assist veterans of subsequent wars as well as peacetime service.
College, business
Technical or vocational courses
Correspondence courses
Apprenticeship/job training
Flight training (with the exception of private pilot training)
Under this bill, benefits may be used to pursue an undergraduate or graduate degree at a college or university, a cooperative training program, or an accredited independent study program leading to a degree.
G.I. Bill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Whether they realize it or not, those arguing against funding only for public schools, and eliminating choice for citizens, are simply in the thrall of the unions.

 

[AllieBaba]

So people who can't afford private schools shouldn't have kids?

That's not elitist at all.

 

[chanel]

Darned socialistic school system.

If you cannot afford to educate your children then don't have any.

Yes. And if you don't want them to be shot, move out of the city.

So simple, eh?

 

[AllieBaba]

Private and charter schools also have more leeway in their hiring practices. Teachers are not maintained based on tenure alone, as they are in public schools. They don't necessarily need "teaching" degrees, and may actually be educated in the fields they are teaching, instead of being educated on "how to teach".

My kids are in a charter school. In our community, the school was to be closed and our students bussed to another, slightly larger school about 20 miles away. The community came together, created a charter, and continued with a local school.

It's wonderful. We have 3 grades together in each classroom at the grade school/middle school level. Our kindergarten teacher works under the guidance of another teacher; she is not certified. I am SO happy she's the kindergarten teacher. The children love her and they both really bloomed under her.

 

[PoliticalChic]

So people who can't afford private schools shouldn't have kids?

That's not elitist at all.

The basis for your post is a misunderstanding of the term 'private school.'

It is the poor who sacrifice to send their children to those 'private schools' known as parochial schools.The majority of school-age children in private school attend parochial schools.

a. Many Catholic families joined the middle-class exodus from blighted communities, and few such schools were fund in the suburbs. “…middle-class Irish and Italian families started moving to the suburbs, leaving urban Catholic schools to cater to a majority of lower-income blacks and Hispanics.” Catholic Schools: How to Fix Parochial Schools' Decline - TIME

b. Urban parochial schools were serving a growing share of disadvantaged and frequently non-Catholic youngsters. In a study published in 1990, for example, the Rand Corporation found that, of the Catholic school students in these Catholic high schools in New York City, 75 to 90 percent were black or Hispanic.