Saudi FM: No Normalization with Israel Until a Two-State Solution.

[Sixties Fan]

I already told you what's wrong with Olmert's offer.

I missed it. Post it again.

 

[Sixties Fan]

[ What part of it was not ok for Abbas? I think the word Peace with Jews and the idea of possible assassination were a big factor in saying no. It always is with the Palestinian leaders ]

From the end of 2006 until the end of 2008, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert held 36 negotiating sessions with Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas in an effort to reach a peace agreement. Additional talks were being held at the same time between Israel’s Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni and Palestinian negotiator Ahmed Qurei.

Olmert presented a comprehensive plan for peace on September 16, 2008. The main elements of Olmert’s proposal were the following:

• Israel would cede almost 94% of the West Bank for the establishment of a Palestinian state.
• Israel would retain approximately 6.4% of the West Bank. “All the lands that before 1967 were buffer zones between the two populations would have been split in half. In return there would be a swap of land (to the Palestinians) from Israel as it existed before 1967.” According to Condoleezza Rice, “Olmert gave Abbas cause to believe that he was willing to reduce that number to 5.8 percent.”
• Sparsely populated settlements would be evacuated, but Gush Etzion, Ma’ale Adumim and Ariel would be annexed by Israel. In exchange, Israel offered to give up area around Afula-Tirat Tzvi, the Lachish region, an area near Har Adar, and areas in the Judean desert and around Gaza equaling 5.8% of Israeli territory.
• Maintain the contiguity of the Palestinian state and create a safe passage between the West Bank and Gaza. “It would have been a tunnel fully controlled by the Palestinians but not under Palestinian sovereignty, otherwise it would have cut the state of Israel in two.”
• Jewish neighborhoods in Jerusalem would be under Jewish sovereignty, Arab neighborhoods would be under Palestinian sovereignty, so it could be the capital of a Palestinian state.
• No one would have sovereignty in the holy basin in Jerusalem containing sites holy to Jews, Muslims and Christians, including the Mount of Olives, the City of David and part of the Arab neighborhood of Silwan. This area “would be jointly administered by five nations, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, the Palestinian state, Israel and the United States.”
• No “right of return” for Palestinian refugees. Israel would agree on a humanitarian basis to accept 1,000 refugees every year for five years “on the basis that this would be the end of conflict and the end of claims.” An effort would also be made to establish an international fund to “compensate Palestinians for their suffering.” The agreement would also include recognition of the suffering of Jews from Arab countries who were forced out of their homes after 1948.
• Palestine would have a strong police force, “everything needed for law enforcement.” It would have no army or air force.
• The Palestinian border with Jordan would be patrolled by international forces – possibly from NATO. The Palestinians would not allow any foreign army to enter Palestine, and its government would not be permitted to enter into any military agreement with a country that does not recognize Israel.
• Israel would retain the right to defend itself beyond the borders of a Palestinian state and to pursue terroristsacross the border.
• Israel would be allowed access to airspace over Palestine, and the Israel Defense Forces would have rights to disproportionate use of the telecommunications spectrum.

“My idea was that, before presenting it to our own peoples, we first would go to the UN Security Council and get a unanimous vote for support,” Olmert told Bernard Avishai. “Then we would ask the General Assembly to support us, and you can imagine that if we both would ask, only Iran or Syria might say no. Then we would go to a joint session of Congress, then to the European Parliament, then a big ceremony on the White House lawn with 25,000 people, with all the leaders of the region where we would initial it.”

Olmert showed Abbas a map which he considered a final offer, not a basis for future negotiations. He told Abbas, “‘This is the offer. Sign it and we can immediately get support from America, from Europe, from all over the world.’ I told him he’d never get anything like this again from an Israeli leader for 50 years. I said to him, ‘do you want to keep floating forever – like an astronaut in space – or do you want a state?’”

U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice called Olmert’s offer “amazing” and warned that “Yitzhak Rabin had been killed for offering far less.”

Abbas rejected the deal.

Ehud Olmert wrote later in a Washington Post op-ed: “To this day, I cannot understand why the Palestinian leadership did not accept the far-reaching and unprecedented proposal I offered them… It would be worth exploring the reasons that the Palestinians rejected my offer and preferred, instead, to drag their feet, avoiding real decisions.”

Ehud Olmert’s Peace Offer

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

 

[rylah]

Look at the history .lsrael was always raiding Lebanon to steal topsoil and water assets. Look how they fought to take the Litani and Wazani rivers.

What a lie's rotten brain.

The Litani was taken for 8 days,
until Pali-Jihadis withdrew north.

 

[surada]

What a rotten brain.

The Litani was taken for 8 days,
until Pali-Jihadis withdrew north.

They advanced to the banks of the Litani and stayed much longer than that. Both the Litani and Wazani rivers are in Lebanon proper. Ariel Sharon made public threats... Have you forgotten?

 

[Sixties Fan]

Part 1

Israel has long sought a peaceful northern border. But Lebanon’s position as a haven for terrorist groups has made this impossible. In March 1978, PLO terrorists infiltrated Israel. After murdering an American tourist walking near an Israeli beach, they hijacked a civilian bus. The terrorists shot through the windows as the bus traveled down the highway. When Israeli troops intercepted the bus, the terrorists opened fire. A total of 34 hostages died in the attack. In response, Israeli forces crossed into Lebanon and overran terrorist bases in the southern part of that country, pushing the terrorists away from the border. The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) withdrew after two months, allowing United Nations forces to enter. But UN troops were unable to prevent terrorists from reinfiltrating the region and introducing new, more dangerous arms.

Violence escalated with a series of PLO attacks and Israeli reprisals. Finally, the United States helped broker a ceasefire agreement in July 1981. The PLO repeatedly violated the cease-fire over the ensuing 11 months. Israel charged that the PLO staged 270 terrorist actions in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, and along the Lebanese and Jordanian borders. Twentynine Israelis died and more than 300 were injured in the attacks.

Meanwhile, a force of some 15-18,000 PLO members was encamped in scores of locations in Lebanon. About 5,000-6,000 were foreign mercenaries, coming from such countries as Libya, Iraq, India, Sri Lanka, Chad and Mozambique. Israel later discovered enough light arms and other weapons in Lebanon to equip five brigades. The PLO arsenal included mortars, Katyusha rockets and an extensive antiaircraft network. The PLO also brought hundreds of T34 tanks into the area. Syria, which permitted Lebanon to become a haven for the PLO and other terrorist groups, brought surface-to-air missiles into that country, creating yet another danger for Israel.

Israeli strikes and commando raids were unable to stem the growth of this PLO army. The situation in the Galilee became intolerable as the frequency of attacks forced thousands of residents to flee their homes or to spend large amounts of time in bomb shelters. Israel was not prepared to wait for more deadly attacks to be launched against its civilian population before acting against the terrorists.

Background & Overview of First Lebanon War

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

 

[Sixties Fan]

Part 2

The Last Straw​

The final provocation occurred in June 1982 when a Palestinian terrorist group led by Abu Nidal attempted to assassinate Israel’s Ambassador to Great Britain, Shlomo Argov. The IDF subsequently attacked Lebanon again on June 4-5, 1982. The PLO responded with a massive artillery and mortar attack on the Israeli population of the Galilee. On June 6, the IDF moved into Lebanon to drive out the terrorists in “Operation Peace for Galilee.”​

Former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger defended the Israeli operation: “No sovereign state can tolerate indefinitely the buildup along its borders of a military force dedicated to its destruction and implementing its objectives by periodic shellings and raids.”

On June 21, 1982, two weeks after the outbreak of the war, Prime Minister Menachem Begin and U.S. President Ronald Reagan met in Washington. When Reagan referred to Israel’s action as an “invasion,” Begin insisted that was a “misnomer” and that Israel was engaged in its “inherent right of self-defense against aggression.”

Begin said Israel was responding to attacks launched by Palestinian terrorists based in Lebanon. Playing on Reagan’s Cold War concerns about the Soviet Union, the prime minister related that the Soviets were arming the Palestinians and that Israel had “found 10 times more weapons than our intelligence had predicted.”

Begin also emphasized the terror created by the type of rockets the Soviets provided. Thousands of Israelis were under fire from Katyushas, which caused Israelis in the area to live “with the permanent fear of sudden death.” He said, “They cried out to us – put an end to it.”

Reagan also raised his concern about the fate of the Palestinian refugees living in Lebanon. He thought that a solution would be for them to become Lebanese citizens and mistakenly believed the Palestinians were citizens in “every other Arab country” and would be welcomed by Lebanon as well.

Israel’s Ambassador to the UN, Yehuda Blum, explained to the president, “In Lebanon, there is also a problem of the religious balance that could be upset by granting the refugees permanent status,” since most Palestinians are Muslims. “I could see why Lebanon would be reluctant to admit them permanently,” he said.

Begin argued the Palestinians should be sent to other Arab countries such as Libya, Iraq, and Syria. “The Arab countries have vast territories, much water, oil, and billions of dollars.” But Defense Minister Moshe Arens noted those countries were unwilling to accept the refugees.

Much of the discussion echoed discussions about the broader Palestinian refugee problem, with Begin referring to other refugee problems that were solved by “resettlement.” This had been the original idea for settling the Palestinians after the 1948 War, but the Arab states were no more willing to accept refugees in 1982.

“On Lebanon, it is clear that we and Israel both seek an end to the violence there, and a sovereign, independent Lebanon,” President Reagan said after the meeting. “We agree that Israel must not be subjected to violence from the north.”

Background & Overview of First Lebanon War

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

 

[Sixties Fan]

Part 3

PLO Tyranny in Lebanon

The initial success of the Israeli operation led officials to broaden the objective to expel the PLO from Lebanon and induce the country’s leaders to sign a peace treaty. In 1983, Lebanon’s President, Amin Gemayel, signed a peace treaty with Israel. A year later, Syria forced Gemayel to renege on the agreement. The war then became drawn out as the IDF captured Beirut and surrounded Yasser Arafat and his guerrillas.

For Arab residents of south Lebanon, PLO rule was a nightmare. After the PLO was expelled from Jordan by King Hussein in 1970, many of its cadres went to Lebanon. The PLO seized whole areas of the country, where it brutalized the population and usurped Lebanese government authority.

On October 14, 1976, Lebanese Ambassador Edward Ghorra told the UN General Assembly the PLO was bringing ruin upon his country: “Palestinian elements belonging to various splinter organizations resorted to kidnaping Lebanese, and sometimes foreigners, holding them prisoners, questioning them, and even sometimes killing them.”

Columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak, not known for being sympathetic toward Israel, declared after touring south Lebanon and Beirut that the facts “tend to support Israel’s claim that the PLO has become permeated by thugs and adventurers.” Countless Lebanese told harrowing tales of rape, mutilation and murders committed by PLO forces.

New York Times correspondent David Shipler visited Damour, a Christian village near Beirut, which had been occupied by the PLO since 1976, when Palestinians and Lebanese leftists sacked the city and massacred hundreds of its inhabitants. The PLO, Shipler wrote, had turned the town into a military base, “using its churches as strongholds and armories.”

When the IDF drove the PLO out of Damour in June 1982, Prime Minister Menachem Begin announced that the town’s Christian residents could come home and rebuild. Returning villagers found their former homes littered with spray-painted Palestinian nationalist slogans, Fatah literature and posters of Yasir Arafat. They told Shipler how happy they were that Israel had liberated them.

Background & Overview of First Lebanon War

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

 

[Sixties Fan]

Part 4

The PLO’s Reluctant Retreat​

When the IDF captured Beirut, the civilian population was forced to suffer because of the PLO’s refusal to surrender. By mid-June, Israeli troops had surrounded 6,000-9,000 terrorists who had taken up positions amid the civilian population of West Beirut. To prevent civilian casualties, Israel agreed to a cease-fire to enable an American diplomat, Ambassador Philip Habib, to mediate a peaceful PLO withdrawal from Lebanon. As a gesture of flexibility, Israel agreed to permit PLO forces to leave Beirut with their personal weapons. But the PLO continued to make new demands.

The PLO also adopted a strategy of controlled violations of the ceasefire, with the purpose of inflicting casualties on Israel and provoking Israeli retaliation sufficient to get the IDF blamed for disrupting the negotiations and harming civilians. For more than a month, the PLO tried to extract a political victory from its military defeat. Arafat declared his willingness “in principle” to leave Beirut, then refused to go to any other country. Arafat also tried to push the U.S. to recognize the PLO. Throughout the siege, the PLO hid behind innocent civilians, accurately calculating that if Israel were to attack, it would be internationally condemned.

“The Israelis bombed buildings, innocent looking on the outside, where their intelligence told them that PLO offices were hidden,” wrote Middle East analyst Joshua Muravchik. “Their intelligence also told them of the huge network of underground PLO storage facilities for arms and munitions that was later uncovered by the Lebanese Army. No doubt the Israelis dropped some bombs hoping to penetrate those facilities and detonate the dumps. The PLO had both artillery and antiaircraft [equipment] truck mounted. These would fire at the Israelis and then move.” The Israelis would fire back and sometimes miss, inadvertently hitting civilian targets.

In numerous instances, the media mistakenly reported that Israel was hitting civilian targets in areas where no military ones were nearby. On one night in July, Israeli shells hit seven embassies in Beirut. NBC aired a report that appeared to lend credence to PLO claims it had no military positions in the area. Israel, Muravchik noted, “soon released reconnaissance photos showing the embassy area honeycombed with tanks, mortars, heavy machine guns and antiaircraft positions.”

Israel was determined to drive the PLO out of Beirut. In an effort to end the war, an international contingent of American, French, and Italian troops was created to supervise the evacuation of PLO forces from Beirut. Eight countries agreed to grant asylum to the Palestinians: Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Republic of South Yemen, North Yemen, Sudan, Tunisia and Algeria. The multinational force arrived on August 21 and by September 1, approximately 14,000 PLO fighters had left, with Arafat leaving for Tunisia on August 30.

The Lebanon war provoked intense debate within Israel. For the first time in Israel’s history, a consensus for war did not exist (though it did at the outset). Prime Minister Menachem Begin resigned as demands for an end to the fighting grew louder. The national coalition government that took office in 1984 decided to withdraw from Lebanon, leaving behind a token force to help the South Lebanese Army (which Israel had long supported) patrol a security zone near Israel’s border.

Though the IDF succeeded in driving the PLO out of Lebanon, it did not end the terrorist threats from that country. The war was also costly, 1,216 soldiers died between June 5, 1982, and May 31, 1985.​

Background & Overview of First Lebanon War

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

 

[Sixties Fan]

Part 5

Jerusalem repeatedly stressed that Israel did not covet a single inch of Lebanese territory. Israel’s 1985 withdrawal from Lebanon confirmed that. The small 1,000-man Israeli force, deployed in a strip of territory extending eight miles into south Lebanon, protects towns and villages in northern Israel from attack. Israel also repeatedly said it would completely withdraw from Lebanon in return for a stable security situation on its northern border.

Most of the terrorist groups that threaten Israel have not been disarmed. For example, several thousand terrorists currently in Lebanon are members of Hezbollah. The group receives financial support and arms from Iran, usually via Damascus. Hezbollah -which had initially confined itself to launching Katyusha rocket attacks on northern Israel and ambushing Israeli troops in the security zone-has in recent years stepped up its attacks on Israeli civilians.

In April 1996, the IDF mounted “Operation Grapes of Wrath“ to halt Hezbollah’s bombardment of Israel’s northern frontier. During the operation, Israeli artillery mistakenly hit a UN base in Kafr Kana, killing nearly 100 civilians. Afterward, a Joint Monitoring Machinery, including American, French, Syrian and Lebanese representatives, was created to prohibit unprovoked attacks on civilian populations and the use of civilians as shields for terrorist activities.

The Syrian-backed Lebanese Army has yet to take action against Hezbollah, or other terrorist organizations, such as the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command (PFLP-GC) or Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP), which have bases in the Syrian-controlled Bekaa Valley in eastern Lebanon. Syria, in fact, declared its unqualified support for stepped-up violence in the area. Consequently, attacks against Israeli troops in the Security Zone and civilians in northern Israel continued.

Israel Withdraws​

Israel pulled all its troops out of southern Lebanon on May 24, 2000, ending a 22-year military presence there. All Israel Defense Force and South Lebanon Army outposts were evacuated. The Israeli withdrawal was conducted in coordination with the UN, and constituted an Israeli fulfillment of its obligations under Security Council Resolution 425 (1978).

On January 17, 2018, thirty-one years after the end of the First Lebanon War, the last fallen soldier from the war was laid to rest. Sgt. Abraham Ajami was just 19 years old in 1987 when he suffered a critical head injury due to a shell exploding near him, and was placed in a vegetative state. Ajami lived in a hospital with machines keeping him alive for three decades, and passed away in January 2018 at the age of 50, surrounded by friends and family.

Background & Overview of First Lebanon War

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

 

[rylah]

They advanced to the banks of the Litani and stayed much longer than that. Both the Litani and Wazani rivers are in Lebanon proper. Ariel Sharon made public threats... Have you forgotten?

Pali-Jihadis withdrew from the south Lebanon,
north of Litani, the operation lasted 8 days.
Why the need to make up stuff?

If they went to Egypt and Arabia, most Lebanese rejoice.
Threats in the Middle East, are like coffee breaks during work.

 

[rylah]

Of all the nations in the Middle East,
Lebanese are closest to the Israeli Jews.

Very familiar, it's the mentality, value of education.
Levant remains uniquely distinct from the "Arab world".

 

[USAF 2023]

I already told you what's wrong with Olmert's offer.

Abbas admits he rejected 2008 peace offer from Olmert

PA president says he declined proposal -- which included near-total withdrawal from West Bank and relinquishing Israeli control of Jerusalem's Old City -- because he wasn't allowed to study map

www.timesofisrael.com

No, you didn't . Nice try !


The “ Saudi Peace Initiative “ is DOA. To expect Israel to give up everything including the Jewish Quarter, being forbidden to visit Holy Sites pre 67 and run the possibility of having a Jewish Minority isn’t going to happen. That’s not how “ negotiations “ work

You see nothing wrong with this? THANK GOD THE REST OF US DO

 

[USAF 2023]

The Taliban.

What does that have to do with the Israeli/ Palestinian issue? Another stupid remark.

 

[rylah]

What does that have to do with the Israeli/ Palestinian issue? Another stupid remark.

Heard about the Pashtuns?

Saudis can barely withstand Yemenite villagers,

talk about Mountain Jews, they withstand both Russia and the US...

and mix them up real well...let me suggest research that in context of 1948.

 

[USAF 2023]

Israel attacked Egypt in 1967 and international law doesn't allow colonization of occupied territory. That's why we chased Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait.

Another lie. Egypt initiated the War by closing the Straits. Keep trying

 

[USAF 2023]

The Israelis don't respect international law... Never have. Now they want the Saudis to fight Iran on their behalf.

“International Law” is a myth. Please tell us why Egypt succeeded in blocking International Waters or better yet why the INTERNATIONAL PEACEKEEPERS Left just prior to the 67 War??

 

[USAF 2023]

Nothing changed. The Saudi peace initiative of 2002 is still on the table. Trump gave everything away in his pathetic "negotiations". That's not how it works.

The “ Saudi Peace Initiative “ is going back to 67 Borders that weren’t recognized in the first place PLUS “ right of return “ The PLO already stated the Jews would not be allowed at the Western Wall PLUS they would have control of all Jewish Holy Sites. Give me one reason why Israel would even consider this

 

[JohnDB]

Since this surrounds the Saudis....
They were integral to the oil embargo of the 70's....
Because we were responsible for supplying arms to Israel for self defense and attack, the Arab Nations decided they would not sell the US any oil. And we had immediate shortages. 55mph federal speed limits and a real energy crisis.

The Future Of U.S. Offshore Oil Drilling Hangs In The Balance | OilPrice.com

The Biden Administration is finalizing the next five-year offshore leasing program, which has been delayed by several months already, creating yet another uncertainty for the U.S. oil industry which has had to grapple with numerous mixed messages from Washington

oilprice.com

 

[MartyNYC]

Saudi investor is largest shareholder in Israeli mobility intelligence company. “We like the innovation and technology culture of Israel,” said Muhammad Asif Seemab…

Saudi Family Office Builds Largest Stake in Israel’s Otonomo