Russia's New Armata Tank: The Best Tank in the World?

[Bleipriester]

Russia will have the most modern forces soon while western militaries are on the decline.
The only option for Europe is to stay on friendly terms with Russia. Phrump needs to know that.

Russia's New Armata Tank: The Best Tank in the World?

 

[SandSquid]

The T-14 was supposed to have 2300 tanks by 2020. Instead they are going to have 12. And they cancelled the main production run instead opting for 32 total tanks. 32. They cut the program.

It's a lot like the T-50 fighter. 150 units originally asked for. Cut to 50, and now down to 12.

And the PAK-DA bomber, now they are going back to putting the TU 160 blackjacks back into production instead (first was flying in 1981).

Same with the Borei and Yasen class subs. And their nuclear cruise missile program.


It's what is called in military term a "death spiral". Spending all your money on testing and bringing a weapon to market at high costs, but never reaping the benefits of the reduced unit costs of mass production of it and wasting the budget.


Why do you think cutting the modern tank and instead going back to cold war designs gives them the "most modern forces"? Seems to be not a thought based in reality you have there.

 

[Bleipriester]

The T-14 was supposed to have 2300 tanks by 2020. Instead they are going to have 12.

And what we've seen again and again, unless a tank doesn't have the firepower to compete (the Abrams does), four things tend to heavily impact tank battles.

1. Tactics. US spends a LOT more with actual training and integrated live fire exercises.
2. Air superiority. Saw this often that owning the skies can be devastating to any armored forces.
3. Firing (and hitting) first. T-14 has a 12x mag sight, whereas the Abrams has a 50x. The T-14 is essentially a non factor if it loses it's sensors while the Abrams can still fire line of sight. Russia last we knew was decades behind the US in terms of thermal imaging. Ballistic computers (ability to fire on target on the move) have always favored the American tanks, despite Russia saying again and again their computers have caught up, they've always disappointed.
4. Armor. This tank is 15-20 tons lighter than an Abrams, and much cheaper. Meaning it's unlikely the armor is some very expensive lightweight composite (See the Japanese Type 10).

The Abram´s gun is a licensed German L/44, an outdated canon.

"By 1990, the L/44 was not considered powerful enough to deal with future Soviet armour, which stimulated an effort by Rheinmetall to develop a better main armament."
Rheinmetall Rh-120 - Wikipedia

The Abrams is not compatible with the L/55. Additionally, no MBT was made in USA for almost 30 years.

 

[Mikeoxenormous]

Russia will have the most modern forces soon while western militaries are on the decline.
The only option for Europe is to stay on friendly terms with Russia. Phrump needs to know that.

Russia's New Armata Tank: The Best Tank in the World?

Best tank in the world, meet the coffin maker.

 

[Bleipriester]

Russia will have the most modern forces soon while western militaries are on the decline.
The only option for Europe is to stay on friendly terms with Russia. Phrump needs to know that.

Russia's New Armata Tank: The Best Tank in the World?

Best tank in the world, meet the coffin maker.

Incredibly low cost and capable plane but they do have air defense. Ever heard of air defense?

 

[Crepitus]

Russia will have the most modern forces soon while western militaries are on the decline.
The only option for Europe is to stay on friendly terms with Russia. Phrump needs to know that.

Russia's New Armata Tank: The Best Tank in the World?

Jane's is pretty impressed with the tank for sure, but with the extremely low production numbers I don't think they will be much if a problem. 132 total systems in the pipe I think, the majority if which are configured as infantry carriers. None delivered so far as far as I know.

 

[SandSquid]

The T-14 was supposed to have 2300 tanks by 2020. Instead they are going to have 12.

And what we've seen again and again, unless a tank doesn't have the firepower to compete (the Abrams does), four things tend to heavily impact tank battles.

1. Tactics. US spends a LOT more with actual training and integrated live fire exercises.
2. Air superiority. Saw this often that owning the skies can be devastating to any armored forces.
3. Firing (and hitting) first. T-14 has a 12x mag sight, whereas the Abrams has a 50x. The T-14 is essentially a non factor if it loses it's sensors while the Abrams can still fire line of sight. Russia last we knew was decades behind the US in terms of thermal imaging. Ballistic computers (ability to fire on target on the move) have always favored the American tanks, despite Russia saying again and again their computers have caught up, they've always disappointed.
4. Armor. This tank is 15-20 tons lighter than an Abrams, and much cheaper. Meaning it's unlikely the armor is some very expensive lightweight composite (See the Japanese Type 10).

The Abram´s gun is a licensed German L/44, an outdated canon.

"By 1990, the L/44 was not considered powerful enough to deal with future Soviet armour, which stimulated an effort by Rheinmetall to develop a better main armament."
Rheinmetall Rh-120 - Wikipedia

The Abrams is not compatible with the L/55. Additionally, no MBT was made in USA for almost 30 years.

Interesting... so you believe Russia choosing instead focusing on fixing up T-72's is what makes them scary? Remind me the kill rates when T-72's and Abrams have faced off?

And that was Pre 830's...

 

[Bleipriester]

Russia will have the most modern forces soon while western militaries are on the decline.
The only option for Europe is to stay on friendly terms with Russia. Phrump needs to know that.

Russia's New Armata Tank: The Best Tank in the World?

Jane's is pretty impressed with the tank for sure, but with the extremely low production numbers I don't think they will be much if a problem. 132 total systems in the pipe I think, the majority if which are configured as infantry carriers. None delivered so far as far as I know.

A technical issue I guess. Read the article, the platform seems to be planned to serve for decades. Not that the Russians are in a hurry with a new MBT. They have still 20000 MBTs in service.

 

[SandSquid]

Russia will have the most modern forces soon while western militaries are on the decline.
The only option for Europe is to stay on friendly terms with Russia. Phrump needs to know that.

Russia's New Armata Tank: The Best Tank in the World?

Best tank in the world, meet the coffin maker.

Incredibly low cost and capable plane but they do have air defense. Ever heard of air defense?

Yup, but you are talking Russia as the aggressor which means non fixed defenses.

So why did you bring up a cancelled program which they instead decided to refurbish cold war era weapons as the "most modern force"?

 

[Bleipriester]

The T-14 was supposed to have 2300 tanks by 2020. Instead they are going to have 12.

And what we've seen again and again, unless a tank doesn't have the firepower to compete (the Abrams does), four things tend to heavily impact tank battles.

1. Tactics. US spends a LOT more with actual training and integrated live fire exercises.
2. Air superiority. Saw this often that owning the skies can be devastating to any armored forces.
3. Firing (and hitting) first. T-14 has a 12x mag sight, whereas the Abrams has a 50x. The T-14 is essentially a non factor if it loses it's sensors while the Abrams can still fire line of sight. Russia last we knew was decades behind the US in terms of thermal imaging. Ballistic computers (ability to fire on target on the move) have always favored the American tanks, despite Russia saying again and again their computers have caught up, they've always disappointed.
4. Armor. This tank is 15-20 tons lighter than an Abrams, and much cheaper. Meaning it's unlikely the armor is some very expensive lightweight composite (See the Japanese Type 10).

The Abram´s gun is a licensed German L/44, an outdated canon.

"By 1990, the L/44 was not considered powerful enough to deal with future Soviet armour, which stimulated an effort by Rheinmetall to develop a better main armament."
Rheinmetall Rh-120 - Wikipedia

The Abrams is not compatible with the L/55. Additionally, no MBT was made in USA for almost 30 years.

Interesting... so you believe Russia choosing instead focusing on fixing up T-72's is what makes them scary? Remind me the kill rates when T-72's and Abrams have faced off?

And that was Pre 830's...

Iraqi made munitions could not hurt the Abrams. But it is no secret that a T-72 can destroy an M1 at a range of 1000 meters.

 

[Crepitus]

The T-14 was supposed to have 2300 tanks by 2020. Instead they are going to have 12.

And what we've seen again and again, unless a tank doesn't have the firepower to compete (the Abrams does), four things tend to heavily impact tank battles.

1. Tactics. US spends a LOT more with actual training and integrated live fire exercises.
2. Air superiority. Saw this often that owning the skies can be devastating to any armored forces.
3. Firing (and hitting) first. T-14 has a 12x mag sight, whereas the Abrams has a 50x. The T-14 is essentially a non factor if it loses it's sensors while the Abrams can still fire line of sight. Russia last we knew was decades behind the US in terms of thermal imaging. Ballistic computers (ability to fire on target on the move) have always favored the American tanks, despite Russia saying again and again their computers have caught up, they've always disappointed.
4. Armor. This tank is 15-20 tons lighter than an Abrams, and much cheaper. Meaning it's unlikely the armor is some very expensive lightweight composite (See the Japanese Type 10).

The Abram´s gun is a licensed German L/44, an outdated canon.

"By 1990, the L/44 was not considered powerful enough to deal with future Soviet armour, which stimulated an effort by Rheinmetall to develop a better main armament."
Rheinmetall Rh-120 - Wikipedia

The Abrams is not compatible with the L/55. Additionally, no MBT was made in USA for almost 30 years.

Abrams were upgraded to 120 mm guns in the early 1990s.

 

[Bleipriester]

Russia will have the most modern forces soon while western militaries are on the decline.
The only option for Europe is to stay on friendly terms with Russia. Phrump needs to know that.

Russia's New Armata Tank: The Best Tank in the World?

Best tank in the world, meet the coffin maker.

Incredibly low cost and capable plane but they do have air defense. Ever heard of air defense?

Yup, but you are talking Russia as the aggressor which means non fixed defenses.

So why did you bring up a cancelled program which they instead decided to refurbish cold war era weapons as the "most modern force"?

If the T-14 was canceled, why is National Interest publishing a brand new article about it?

 

[Bleipriester]

The T-14 was supposed to have 2300 tanks by 2020. Instead they are going to have 12.

And what we've seen again and again, unless a tank doesn't have the firepower to compete (the Abrams does), four things tend to heavily impact tank battles.

1. Tactics. US spends a LOT more with actual training and integrated live fire exercises.
2. Air superiority. Saw this often that owning the skies can be devastating to any armored forces.
3. Firing (and hitting) first. T-14 has a 12x mag sight, whereas the Abrams has a 50x. The T-14 is essentially a non factor if it loses it's sensors while the Abrams can still fire line of sight. Russia last we knew was decades behind the US in terms of thermal imaging. Ballistic computers (ability to fire on target on the move) have always favored the American tanks, despite Russia saying again and again their computers have caught up, they've always disappointed.
4. Armor. This tank is 15-20 tons lighter than an Abrams, and much cheaper. Meaning it's unlikely the armor is some very expensive lightweight composite (See the Japanese Type 10).

The Abram´s gun is a licensed German L/44, an outdated canon.

"By 1990, the L/44 was not considered powerful enough to deal with future Soviet armour, which stimulated an effort by Rheinmetall to develop a better main armament."
Rheinmetall Rh-120 - Wikipedia

The Abrams is not compatible with the L/55. Additionally, no MBT was made in USA for almost 30 years.

Abrams were upgraded to 120 mm guns in the early 1990s.

It was upgraded to the L/44.

 

[Crepitus]

Russia will have the most modern forces soon while western militaries are on the decline.
The only option for Europe is to stay on friendly terms with Russia. Phrump needs to know that.

Russia's New Armata Tank: The Best Tank in the World?

Jane's is pretty impressed with the tank for sure, but with the extremely low production numbers I don't think they will be much if a problem. 132 total systems in the pipe I think, the majority if which are configured as infantry carriers. None delivered so far as far as I know.

A technical issue I guess. Read the article, the platform seems to be planned to serve for decades. Not that the Russians are in a hurry with a new MBT. They have still 20000 MBTs in service.

Lol, sure. Ranging all the was back to t-72s.

 

[Crepitus]

The T-14 was supposed to have 2300 tanks by 2020. Instead they are going to have 12.

And what we've seen again and again, unless a tank doesn't have the firepower to compete (the Abrams does), four things tend to heavily impact tank battles.

1. Tactics. US spends a LOT more with actual training and integrated live fire exercises.
2. Air superiority. Saw this often that owning the skies can be devastating to any armored forces.
3. Firing (and hitting) first. T-14 has a 12x mag sight, whereas the Abrams has a 50x. The T-14 is essentially a non factor if it loses it's sensors while the Abrams can still fire line of sight. Russia last we knew was decades behind the US in terms of thermal imaging. Ballistic computers (ability to fire on target on the move) have always favored the American tanks, despite Russia saying again and again their computers have caught up, they've always disappointed.
4. Armor. This tank is 15-20 tons lighter than an Abrams, and much cheaper. Meaning it's unlikely the armor is some very expensive lightweight composite (See the Japanese Type 10).

The Abram´s gun is a licensed German L/44, an outdated canon.

"By 1990, the L/44 was not considered powerful enough to deal with future Soviet armour, which stimulated an effort by Rheinmetall to develop a better main armament."
Rheinmetall Rh-120 - Wikipedia

The Abrams is not compatible with the L/55. Additionally, no MBT was made in USA for almost 30 years.

Abrams were upgraded to 120 mm guns in the early 1990s.

It was upgraded to the L/44.

No, the L/44 is the original 105 mm gun.

 

[Crepitus]

The T-14 was supposed to have 2300 tanks by 2020. Instead they are going to have 12.

And what we've seen again and again, unless a tank doesn't have the firepower to compete (the Abrams does), four things tend to heavily impact tank battles.

1. Tactics. US spends a LOT more with actual training and integrated live fire exercises.
2. Air superiority. Saw this often that owning the skies can be devastating to any armored forces.
3. Firing (and hitting) first. T-14 has a 12x mag sight, whereas the Abrams has a 50x. The T-14 is essentially a non factor if it loses it's sensors while the Abrams can still fire line of sight. Russia last we knew was decades behind the US in terms of thermal imaging. Ballistic computers (ability to fire on target on the move) have always favored the American tanks, despite Russia saying again and again their computers have caught up, they've always disappointed.
4. Armor. This tank is 15-20 tons lighter than an Abrams, and much cheaper. Meaning it's unlikely the armor is some very expensive lightweight composite (See the Japanese Type 10).

The Abram´s gun is a licensed German L/44, an outdated canon.

"By 1990, the L/44 was not considered powerful enough to deal with future Soviet armour, which stimulated an effort by Rheinmetall to develop a better main armament."
Rheinmetall Rh-120 - Wikipedia

The Abrams is not compatible with the L/55. Additionally, no MBT was made in USA for almost 30 years.

Interesting... so you believe Russia choosing instead focusing on fixing up T-72's is what makes them scary? Remind me the kill rates when T-72's and Abrams have faced off?

And that was Pre 830's...

Iraqi made munitions could not hurt the Abrams. But it is no secret that a T-72 can destroy an M1 at a range of 1000 meters.

Except that T-72 don't have modern targeting systems so a hit is pretty unlikely at that kinda range.

 

[SandSquid]

Russia will have the most modern forces soon while western militaries are on the decline.
The only option for Europe is to stay on friendly terms with Russia. Phrump needs to know that.

Russia's New Armata Tank: The Best Tank in the World?

Jane's is pretty impressed with the tank for sure, but with the extremely low production numbers I don't think they will be much if a problem. 132 total systems in the pipe I think, the majority if which are configured as infantry carriers. None delivered so far as far as I know.

A technical issue I guess. Read the article, the platform seems to be planned to serve for decades. Not that the Russians are in a hurry with a new MBT. They have still 20000 MBTs in service.

So they have 12 of them, plans for another 20 and NOTHING past that. And they were in a hurry, until they realized the couldn't afford it and cancelled their order. The US has developed dozens of weapons of which only a handful get made before the program gets shut down and orders cancelled.

The backbone of that group is the T-72 (saw how they competed vs. previous gen of Abrams). Then the T-80 (based on the T-64 with some T-72 features) which the US had obtained and tested against and who's only use in armed conflict was a failure (1st Chechen war) and high costs kept out of later conflicts.


And the T-90 (a T72 variant which was given a new name to feel modern and not based off a 50 year old design) which is being sold around the world.

What about cancelling an order of modern tanks to instead go back to the drawing board with refurbishing cold war era tanks that have proven not to be able to compete with the Abrams gives them the "modern force"?

 

[night_son]

Russia will have the most modern forces soon while western militaries are on the decline.
The only option for Europe is to stay on friendly terms with Russia. Phrump needs to know that.

Russia's New Armata Tank: The Best Tank in the World?

Let's see them mass produce it. After they've mass produced it, let's see them mass produce a new air force to shield those shining new armor divisions from the most powerful airborne military force in human history. And then, let's watch as said airborne force wrecks the not yet in existence Armata divisions like toy train sets. Word.

 

[Crepitus]

Russia will have the most modern forces soon while western militaries are on the decline.
The only option for Europe is to stay on friendly terms with Russia. Phrump needs to know that.

Russia's New Armata Tank: The Best Tank in the World?

Jane's is pretty impressed with the tank for sure, but with the extremely low production numbers I don't think they will be much if a problem. 132 total systems in the pipe I think, the majority if which are configured as infantry carriers. None delivered so far as far as I know.

A technical issue I guess. Read the article, the platform seems to be planned to serve for decades. Not that the Russians are in a hurry with a new MBT. They have still 20000 MBTs in service.

So they have 12 of them, plans for another 20 and NOTHING past that. And they were in a hurry, until they realized the couldn't afford it and cancelled their order.

The backbone of that group is the T-72 (saw how they competed vs. previous gen of Abrams). Then the T-80 (based on the T-64 with some T-72 features) which the US had obtained and tested against and who's only use in armed conflict was a failure (1st Chechen war) and high costs kept out of later conflicts.


And the T-90 (a T72 variant which was given a new name to feel modern and not based off a 50 year old design) which is being sold around the world.

What about cancelling an order of modern tanks to instead go back to the drawing board with refurbishing cold war era tanks that have proven not to be able to compete with the Abrams gives them the "modern force"?

They're broke.

 

[Marion Morrison]

The T-14 was supposed to have 2300 tanks by 2020. Instead they are going to have 12.

And what we've seen again and again, unless a tank doesn't have the firepower to compete (the Abrams does), four things tend to heavily impact tank battles.

1. Tactics. US spends a LOT more with actual training and integrated live fire exercises.
2. Air superiority. Saw this often that owning the skies can be devastating to any armored forces.
3. Firing (and hitting) first. T-14 has a 12x mag sight, whereas the Abrams has a 50x. The T-14 is essentially a non factor if it loses it's sensors while the Abrams can still fire line of sight. Russia last we knew was decades behind the US in terms of thermal imaging. Ballistic computers (ability to fire on target on the move) have always favored the American tanks, despite Russia saying again and again their computers have caught up, they've always disappointed.
4. Armor. This tank is 15-20 tons lighter than an Abrams, and much cheaper. Meaning it's unlikely the armor is some very expensive lightweight composite (See the Japanese Type 10).

The Abram´s gun is a licensed German L/44, an outdated canon.

"By 1990, the L/44 was not considered powerful enough to deal with future Soviet armour, which stimulated an effort by Rheinmetall to develop a better main armament."
Rheinmetall Rh-120 - Wikipedia

The Abrams is not compatible with the L/55. Additionally, no MBT was made in USA for almost 30 years.

Abrams were upgraded to 120 mm guns in the early 1990s.

It was upgraded to the L/44.

Weren't all of Iraq's Russian-made tanks destroyed in 1 day?

Hey man, what color are Russian ships?