Root Cause of US Education System Failure

[Middleman]

Incidentally, the conjunction of 'it is' is 'it's'. Used in a sentence: "It's the parents' fault, they are simply too busy to keep the kids focused on their studies".


The word 'its' is the possessive form of it. Used in a sentence: "Writing with poor punctuation is its own worst enemy."

 

[antagon]

I agree 100%. Those cultures/parents that put a high value on education tend to do what is necessary to insure their children make the maximum effort. They provide the parameters within their culture to maximize success. Funny thing, Asians and Jews tend towards instilling their children with expectations of high academic achievement. Often ignoring the responsibilities of work that I previously posted. They are a consistent exception to my 'rules'.

When I was studying sociology among all the statistics we read, Jews and Irish Catholic females basically beat out all other groups regarding higher education. Why? Expectations.

expectation, concern, encouragement, investment, immersion, love, zeitgeist, entrapment, enslavement, brainwashing, reward, scrutiny, cooperation, intensity, praise, interest, priority, principle...

 

[Annie]

this could be true. i doesn't line up with my personal experience because i think my parents got better educations for free than they paid to get me... at least through high school. plus they retained their citizenship and i've adopted it along with my own. i think lots of asian and indian kids, to hurl out a stereotype, excel in education because of parents who value education for the reasons you point out, though. it's just different from my background. same pressure, same results, different reasoning perhaps.

i think private schools (those i attended, at least) pinch down on freedom in pursuit of discipline as a mode of operation. they tend toward traditional methodologies valuing making the grade over the creativity and hope-spawning tactics to which public schools are increasingly endeared. it is different in that one system is education through ass-kickin and the other is education through a back-rub.

I agree 100%. Those cultures/parents that put a high value on education tend to do what is necessary to insure their children make the maximum effort. They provide the parameters within their culture to maximize success. Funny thing, Asians and Jews tend towards instilling their children with expectations of high academic achievement. Often ignoring the responsibilities of work that I previously posted. They are a consistent exception to my 'rules'.

When I was studying sociology among all the statistics we read, Jews and Irish Catholic females basically beat out all other groups regarding higher education. Why? Expectations.

I would interpret it as the alternative being so consistantly, and as a result, culturally horrifying, that Jews, Asians, even Catholic Females, etc., would sacrifice anything to avoid being undereducated:

Undereducated Jew: How many goy are gonna put up with you on the loading dock?

Undereducated Asian: Yep, we need another guy to carry rocks from a quarry until he drops dead.

Undereducated Irish Catholic Female: Stay home, have babies, and get beat-up on a weekly basis.

In most arenas I am simpatico with you. In this I think you are way off base.

 

[kyzr]

spoiled and lazy.
Yep the American way.

The OP was too lazy to include this option in the poll.

just a victim...

Blaming the kids as the "root cause" is the wrong answer. Kids are kids, they are always spoiled and lazy unless they are taught things like values, discipline, morals, a work ethic, etc. Some kids are self-disciplined, self-starters, most are not.

 

[shintao]

Seems to me the way to help our children succeed, is stop being arrogant, and copy educational programs in the rest of the World, that work.

 

[Annie]

Seems to me the way to help our children succeed, is stop being arrogant, and copy educational programs in the rest of the World, that work.

Right, cut out opportunities to those that have problems at home before they are 15. Good plan.

Truth is, I'd like to see some marrying between European and US paradigms.

 

[pete]

Dumb down the test so those that cant pass have a FAIR chance

after failing twice pass them on so as not to lower their self esteem

...........

 

[shintao]

Seems to me the way to help our children succeed, is stop being arrogant, and copy educational programs in the rest of the World, that work.

Right, cut out opportunities to those that have problems at home before they are 15. Good plan.

Truth is, I'd like to see some marrying between European and US paradigms.

I was thinking Japan, but whoever is listed #1 - #10, America should take a look at, and copy what works. At this point we have nothing to lose.


Here is a simple explanation. http://www.cybercollege.com/plume22.htm

 

[rightwinger]

The US Department of Education needs to be complete vaporized.

We need a broad, diverse, comprehensive educational system that recognizes that students need the following:

Proficiency in Communication skills (reading, writing, computer)

Proficiency in basic math

Basic Finance (balancing a check book and studying how people get rich)

American Government (Basic understanding of why we're special and what separates us from the rest of the world and why people line up to come here even illegally)

After that the student should be exposed to a rich diverse Universe of educational opportunities in technology, arts, civil service, trades and crafts, sports, but with a serious emphasis on helping a high school age student understand what is involved in being an auto mechanic, police officer, or investment banker

let's take for granted that you've got the right formula for education. how will you affect 'a broad, diverse, comprehensive educational system' without the DoE or something just like it?

The US has for years assimilated immigrants, brought up those economically disadvantaged, with DOE. Since it's inception, it's been the model of Lilliputians and Gulliver.

There's no argument that private education, usually parochial has out performed public sector over time, because of higher standards and emphasis on basics. However, immigrants that were not able to access parochial/private, often excelled after public school education.

Comparing private to public school education is like comparing apples and oranges. By the very fact that parents are paying to send their kid to private school shows that they give a shit about their kids education

Try sending kids from single parent households or from parents who are drug addicts to private schools and see how they compare

 

[antagon]

let's take for granted that you've got the right formula for education. how will you affect 'a broad, diverse, comprehensive educational system' without the DoE or something just like it?

The US has for years assimilated immigrants, brought up those economically disadvantaged, with DOE. Since it's inception, it's been the model of Lilliputians and Gulliver.

There's no argument that private education, usually parochial has out performed public sector over time, because of higher standards and emphasis on basics. However, immigrants that were not able to access parochial/private, often excelled after public school education.

Comparing private to public school education is like comparing apples and oranges. By the very fact that parents are paying to send their kid to private school shows that they give a shit about their kids education

Try sending kids from single parent households or from parents who are drug addicts to private schools and see how they compare

mom wasn't a crackhead, but she was a single mother. i did okay. i credit my mother, myself and my school.

there's differences in the pupils, but there's differences in the approaches at private schools as well. i think both factor into what i'd describe as superior results from private ed. i couldn't speak for all private education, but contrary to what annie's contended, my high school has maintained better performance over a publicly educated demographic similar to its own for decades.

 

[chanel]

True and the same thing can be said for charter schools and foreign schools. Here in NJ, expulsion has been outlawed. Hit a teacher? No problem - a months vacation with "home instruction" Anywhere else - they'd be done.

 

[kyzr]

Seems to me the way to help our children succeed, is stop being arrogant, and copy educational programs in the rest of the World, that work.

Right, cut out opportunities to those that have problems at home before they are 15. Good plan.

Truth is, I'd like to see some marrying between European and US paradigms.

The "point" must have sailed over your head....some systems work and some systems don't. maybe "diversity" is more of a problem than a solution<as an example>?

Maybe the US "one size fits all" is a problem? Kids are not equally gifted with skills.
Look at the NY "Regents Exam" as an example.
Regents Examinations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
High achievers need to be challenged. Middle munchers need time to develop. The kids who are not college material need to be taught life skills. IMHO we need to give those kids the same aptitude tests that the kids who enter the military get, not to force them into jobs, but to show them their strengths and weak areas.

Tell me that the liberals won't accept that all kids are not college material?! Then again, why should a kid learn bricklaying when he can sell drugs and become a millionaire?

 

[rightwinger]

Seems to me the way to help our children succeed, is stop being arrogant, and copy educational programs in the rest of the World, that work.

Right, cut out opportunities to those that have problems at home before they are 15. Good plan.

Truth is, I'd like to see some marrying between European and US paradigms.

The "point" must have sailed over your head....some systems work and some systems don't. maybe "diversity" is more of a problem than a solution<as an example>?

Maybe the US "one size fits all" is a problem? Kids are not equally gifted with skills.
Look at the NY "Regents Exam" as an example.
Regents Examinations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
High achievers need to be challenged. Middle munchers need time to develop. The kids who are not college material need to be taught life skills. IMHO we need to give those kids the same aptitude tests that the kids who enter the military get, not to force them into jobs, but to show them their strengths and weak areas.

Tell me that the liberals won't accept that all kids are not college material?! Then again, why should a kid learn bricklaying when he can sell drugs and become a millionaire?

Of course all kids are not college material. Even some kids who are college material are not college material. Daddy pays theitr way and they don't give a shit

We need to start rewarding schools on more than just sending kids to college.

If a school takes a kid and makes him better than he would be otherwise...they have done their job

 

[Annie]

Seems to me the way to help our children succeed, is stop being arrogant, and copy educational programs in the rest of the World, that work.

Right, cut out opportunities to those that have problems at home before they are 15. Good plan.

Truth is, I'd like to see some marrying between European and US paradigms.

The "point" must have sailed over your head....some systems work and some systems don't. maybe "diversity" is more of a problem than a solution<as an example>?

Maybe the US "one size fits all" is a problem? Kids are not equally gifted with skills.
Look at the NY "Regents Exam" as an example.
Regents Examinations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
High achievers need to be challenged. Middle munchers need time to develop. The kids who are not college material need to be taught life skills. IMHO we need to give those kids the same aptitude tests that the kids who enter the military get, not to force them into jobs, but to show them their strengths and weak areas.

Tell me that the liberals won't accept that all kids are not college material?! Then again, why should a kid learn bricklaying when he can sell drugs and become a millionaire?

Hardly. However you seem to have missed my perhaps 100 previous posts on education?

 

[Annie]

let's take for granted that you've got the right formula for education. how will you affect 'a broad, diverse, comprehensive educational system' without the DoE or something just like it?

The US has for years assimilated immigrants, brought up those economically disadvantaged, with DOE. Since it's inception, it's been the model of Lilliputians and Gulliver.

There's no argument that private education, usually parochial has out performed public sector over time, because of higher standards and emphasis on basics. However, immigrants that were not able to access parochial/private, often excelled after public school education.

Comparing private to public school education is like comparing apples and oranges. By the very fact that parents are paying to send their kid to private school shows that they give a shit about their kids education

Try sending kids from single parent households or from parents who are drug addicts to private schools and see how they compare

I guess you are ignorant of how many immigrants have gone through parochial education without paying tuition? Parents and students work for school. Was done 100 years ago and still is done today.

 

[kyzr]

Right, cut out opportunities to those that have problems at home before they are 15. Good plan.

Truth is, I'd like to see some marrying between European and US paradigms.

The "point" must have sailed over your head....some systems work and some systems don't. maybe "diversity" is more of a problem than a solution<as an example>?

Maybe the US "one size fits all" is a problem? Kids are not equally gifted with skills.
Look at the NY "Regents Exam" as an example.
Regents Examinations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
High achievers need to be challenged. Middle munchers need time to develop. The kids who are not college material need to be taught life skills. IMHO we need to give those kids the same aptitude tests that the kids who enter the military get, not to force them into jobs, but to show them their strengths and weak areas.

Tell me that the liberals won't accept that all kids are not college material?! Then again, why should a kid learn bricklaying when he can sell drugs and become a millionaire?

Hardly. However you seem to have missed my perhaps 100 previous posts on education?

I read all posts on this thread. I just disagree with the ones that seem impractical. You dismissed the idea that the US education system should look at the ones that work "because of some 15 year old"........... who would be swept to the curb???

IMHO a more erudite response would have been to at least look at the top systems and see what you find too __________ .

 

[Annie]

The "point" must have sailed over your head....some systems work and some systems don't. maybe "diversity" is more of a problem than a solution<as an example>?

Maybe the US "one size fits all" is a problem? Kids are not equally gifted with skills.
Look at the NY "Regents Exam" as an example.
Regents Examinations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
High achievers need to be challenged. Middle munchers need time to develop. The kids who are not college material need to be taught life skills. IMHO we need to give those kids the same aptitude tests that the kids who enter the military get, not to force them into jobs, but to show them their strengths and weak areas.

Tell me that the liberals won't accept that all kids are not college material?! Then again, why should a kid learn bricklaying when he can sell drugs and become a millionaire?

Hardly. However you seem to have missed my perhaps 100 previous posts on education?

I read all posts on this thread. I just disagree with the ones that seem impractical. You dismissed the idea that the US education system should look at the ones that work "because of some 15 year old"........... who would be swept to the curb???

IMHO a more erudite response would have been to at least look at the top systems and see what you find too __________ .

The 'top systems' make no attempt to educate those that appear to have little academic abilities. Of course we know that much of what appears to be ability is really from the home in enrichment. Educated parents tend to enroll their children in better preschools, read to them, take them to libraries, museums, and other cultural outlets. Their vocabularies are better and they are much more likely to be familiar with items on standardized tests.

Where the US system lets down IMO has been in the jettison of tracking, where parents and kids can see the effects of not working at their highest level. We hold the best back, while not moving the lower kids along.

 

[rdean]

I just sent seed money to a televangelist and god told me to buy gold.

You're clearly undisciplined.

Don't be embarrassed. Clearly, you're not the only one.

Tell us, how much did you "invest"?

 

[kyzr]

Hardly. However you seem to have missed my perhaps 100 previous posts on education?

I read all posts on this thread. I just disagree with the ones that seem impractical. You dismissed the idea that the US education system should look at the ones that work "because of some 15 year old"........... who would be swept to the curb???

IMHO a more erudite response would have been to at least look at the top systems and see what you find too __________ .

The 'top systems' make no attempt to educate those that appear to have little academic abilities. Of course we know that much of what appears to be ability is really from the home in enrichment. Educated parents tend to enroll their children in better preschools, read to them, take them to libraries, museums, and other cultural outlets. Their vocabularies are better and they are much more likely to be familiar with items on standardized tests.

Where the US system lets down IMO has been in the jettison of tracking, where parents and kids can see the effects of not working at their highest level. We hold the best back, while not moving the lower kids along.

Here is one link that supports your position to a degree
World's top education systems - Academic Skills | GreatSchools
the take-away is that there is no easy answer. Diversity may be a problem if it hurts the basic education. The answer there is better discipline and fewer disruptions. Parental involvement is key. More money isn't the answer or the DC school kids would all be Rhodes scholars, yet some minimum level is required.

What problem do you have with teaching kids w/o academic abilities other skills based on their aptitudes? Putting kids in school when they don't want to be there is a major source of the problem.

I'm not sure what your "jettison of tracking" is about, Kids take all types of tests (IQ, PSAT, etc) yet for those of lower academic skills I'd like to see counseling to see if they could take aptitude tests and get career training.

 

[Gadawg73]

All 3 of my kids are a product of public education.
My youngest son graduated UGA last May at age 20 an honor student. He is enrolled there for his Masters.
My oldest son is graduating this semester at age 24.
My daughter is a senior in high school and has offers from all over.
FAMILY and community overcome all else.
Teachers, unions and all the other stuff is BS.