Revolutions And The People

[whitehall]

The problem with the whiny radical left is that they don't appreciate or even understand the US Constitution or their place in the security of the greatest Country ever to exist in the world. We know that America's "poor" live better than Africans or muslem societies. Don't we? If the left would stop whining about their next Starbucks fix and the crisis of college tuitions and whether homos should be able to marry they might be able to appreciate how freaking great their life is in the "land of the free and the home of the brave".

 

[Dragon]

Entitlement economies simply aren't sustainable. Planned economies simply don't work. Look at the rest of Europe. It's not working.

No? Tell you what, instead of just spouting talking points, let's do look at Europe.

List of countries by GDP (nominal) per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is a list of countries from highest to lowest GDP per capita, which is a pretty good estimator of how well an economy is doing. In the top 30 countries, we find:

1. Luxembourg
2. Norway
4. Switzerland
6. Denmark
8. Sweden
9. Netherlands
(10. United States)
12. Ireland
13. Austria
14. Finland
16. Belgium
18. France
19. Germany
20. Iceland (does that count as European?)
22. United Kingdom
23. Italy
25. Spain
29. Greece
30. Slovenia

Non-European countries except the U.S. (and maybe Iceland) have been skipped here. So of the top 30 richest countries in the world, more than half are European countries. And they've had "entitlement economies" as you phrase it (although not planned economies -- that equivalence is not correct) for decades. Looks like it's working out quite well.

But then, the "failure" of European economies has been a false right-wing talkiing point for a while now. Of course Europe is experiencing some problems at the moment; so are we, so is the rest of the world. But in general, compared to us, compared to the rest of the world, Europe is doing just fine.

 

[daveman]

Entitlement economies simply aren't sustainable. Planned economies simply don't work. Look at the rest of Europe. It's not working.

No? Tell you what, instead of just spouting talking points, let's do look at Europe.

List of countries by GDP (nominal) per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is a list of countries from highest to lowest GDP per capita, which is a pretty good estimator of how well an economy is doing. In the top 30 countries, we find:

1. Luxembourg
2. Norway
4. Switzerland
6. Denmark
8. Sweden
9. Netherlands
(10. United States)
12. Ireland
13. Austria
14. Finland
16. Belgium
18. France
19. Germany
20. Iceland (does that count as European?)
22. United Kingdom
23. Italy
25. Spain
29. Greece
30. Slovenia

Non-European countries except the U.S. (and maybe Iceland) have been skipped here. So of the top 30 richest countries in the world, more than half are European countries. And they've had "entitlement economies" as you phrase it (although not planned economies -- that equivalence is not correct) for decades. Looks like it's working out quite well.

But then, the "failure" of European economies has been a false right-wing talkiing point for a while now. Of course Europe is experiencing some problems at the moment; so are we, so is the rest of the world. But in general, compared to us, compared to the rest of the world, Europe is doing just fine.

What happens when you run out of other people's money?

 

[Dragon]

What happens when you run out of other people's money?

Who else's money is Europe using to finance its prosperity?

 

[daveman]

What happens when you run out of other people's money?

Who else's money is Europe using to finance its prosperity?

They're using the money of productive Europeans to fund the non-productive.

I know, I know, you don't see anything wrong with that.

 

[Dragon]

They're using the money of productive Europeans to fund the non-productive.

I know, I know, you don't see anything wrong with that.

Actually, it's not that I wouldn't see anything wrong with that so much as that I question your definition of "productive."

Anyway, Europe shows no sign of hitting the wall any time soon, so I wouldn't hold your breath. So far, mixed socialist/capitalist or managed market or social democratic economics look like they outperform either laissez-faire capitalist or top-down command socialist economies by wide margins.

 

[daveman]

They're using the money of productive Europeans to fund the non-productive.

I know, I know, you don't see anything wrong with that.

Actually, it's not that I wouldn't see anything wrong with that so much as that I question your definition of "productive."

It's really quite simple. Unemployed people are not productive.

I suppose you'll dispute that, too.

Anyway, Europe shows no sign of hitting the wall any time soon, so I wouldn't hold your breath. So far, mixed socialist/capitalist or managed market or social democratic economics look like they outperform either laissez-faire capitalist or top-down command socialist economies by wide margins.

Report: Europe's economy on verge of recession - CBS News
European economy hits a wall: GDP grows 0.2% - Aug. 16, 2011
Geithner: European crisis threatens global economy - Business - World business - msnbc.com
Europe debt crisis threatens Obama campaign – CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs


Yeah. They're having a grand old time over there.

 

[Dragon]

It's really quite simple. Unemployed people are not productive.

The vast majority of benefits in national social-welfare systems go to either employed people or retired people. Only a tiny fraction goes to the unemployed.

Yeah. They're having a grand old time over there.

As I said, the GLOBAL economy is a mess, and Europe is not exempt. They're doing no worse than the rest of the world, though, and in many ways much better than we are.

 

[daveman]

It's really quite simple. Unemployed people are not productive.

The vast majority of benefits in national social-welfare systems go to either employed people or retired people. Only a tiny fraction goes to the unemployed.

Oh, thanks. Retired people are unproductive, too.

So you've got all these people taking from a system and not contributing to it, and the number is increasing all the time.

You REALLY think that's sustainable?

Yeah. They're having a grand old time over there.

As I said, the GLOBAL economy is a mess, and Europe is not exempt. They're doing no worse than the rest of the world, though, and in many ways much better than we are.

Let me guess: You're one of those who thinks that anything European is automatically superior, aren't you?

 

[Dragon]

Oh, thanks. Retired people are unproductive, too.

Perhaps, but there's an ancient tradition going back all the way to before the fall of civilization that says we should support people in their old age, and ALL societies do that without exception. Not all use the government and taxes to do it, but regardless of how it's done, it always takes resources from those who are working and gives them to those who no longer are. If that's something no society can afford, then all societies are dead and the human race extinct.

Let me guess: You're one of those who thinks that anything European is automatically superior, aren't you?

No, I'm just one of those whose opinions are fact-based rather than ideological. It is a statement of ideology unsupported by fact that Europe is about to go belly-up and croak. It is a statement of fact that this is nonsense.