Report: Level of poverty growing

[boedicca]

I don't see it as a socialism at this point, I really see it as massively greedy government who are fighting to maintain the status quo at the expense of the people.

Big Government-ISM by any name would smell so rotten.

Just sayin'.

 

[MaggieMae]

We had a safety net...my husband was laid off for 3 years, we have no safety net anymore. What's worse, during those 3 years it took me more than a year to find a job, it never took me that long before in my life. I used to be able to go out and get a job the first day I tried. THAT job went to India, I can't imagine how bad it would be trying to find a job today.

I'm sorry you went through that. I had a similar awful time after the dotcom crash. Fortunately, we had saved diligently and had a good rainy day fund.

The only real remedy is economic growth that creates private sector jobs. It's very instructive that the current administration's policies have resulted in a Net Decrease in private sector employment.

Here we go again. The "net decrease" began in mid 2008 and began a quick slide during the last quarter of 2008 when 524,000 jobs were lost in December 08 along, added to the 2.6 million already lost that year. Fifty-nine percent of job losses came during the last quarter. The unemployment rate was 7.2% in December 2008—the highest level since January 1993. The African-American unemployment rate stood at 11.9%, the Hispanic unemployment rate at 9.2%, and the unemployment rate for whites at 6.6% in December 2008. All verifiable figures that can be obtained from any number of credible websites. AND, it all happened before the investment houses came tumbling down on top of an economy already on its march downward.

 

[boedicca]

If you're talking about all taxes, then you would probably be correct. However, incomes have also risen over the past 50 years, so it isn't as though households are operating at a negative solely due to taxes.

Scuze me, I did not say that the Federal Tax burden had doubled - but that the total tax burden had. This consists of Federal, State, SS, Medicare, Sales, Property and the host of excise taxes tagged to many things.

Here's the source:

The Tax Foundation - The Tax Burden of the Median American Family


The Federal government has driven a great deal of this increase directly (SS, Medicare) and indirectly through unfunded mandates imposed on the states, causing them to increase taxes.

 

[boedicca]

Here we go again. The "net decrease" began in mid 2008 and began a quick slide during the last quarter of 2008 when 524,000 jobs were lost in December 08 along, added to the 2.6 million already lost that year. Fifty-nine percent of job losses came during the last quarter. The unemployment rate was 7.2% in December 2008—the highest level since January 1993. The African-American unemployment rate stood at 11.9%, the Hispanic unemployment rate at 9.2%, and the unemployment rate for whites at 6.6% in December 2008. All verifiable figures that can be obtained from any number of credible websites. AND, it all happened before the investment houses came tumbling down on top of an economy already on its march downward.

You are focused on too short of a time frame. The sad fact is that we've had no net job creation in the private sector for a DECADE.

A Lost Decade for Jobs - BusinessWeek

We've never recovered from the dotcom/9-11 economic crisis. The growth in the government sector is squashing any ability for the private sector to grow. If we don't reduce the size of government, this malaise will continue.

 

[boedicca]

And where the jobs have been created is rather interesting:

Obama is attacking the sector with the biggest job creation. What will happen to the economy when he destroys that?

 

[MaggieMae]

2006 you say? That would be about the time that the Dems took control of the House and Senate.

Nope. 2006 is when the housing bubble was really beginning to burst. Had nothing to do with the dems that had just come into majority. And who had control the first 6 years? Complete and total control... Do you remember?

The republicans never had "complete and total control". They never had a filibuster proof Senate.

Filibustering is not a Constitutional method. It's a Senate rule that can be changed by the majority party, but neither will do it because they would then lose their leverage when they become the minority party. There are, however, ways other than filibuster to avoid passing a bill: The rule that one Senator can put a "hold" on any further debate is one way (i.e., Bunning's most recent holdup of the jobs bill which extended unemployment benefits). Another way is even after passage of a bill, a president can attach a signing statement, which effectively puts it in limbo.

There are all sorts of games never anticipated in the Constitution's arrangement of powers, and Republicans are just as adept at playing the game as Democrats. Trust me.

 

[MaggieMae]

Freedom and the concept of personal responsibility for one's own well being is not BS... but your attitude showing that you believe it is BS is very telling

Nobody is supposed to put food on your table but you
2 Thessalonians 3:10
For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat."

Unlike what you whiny leftist entitlement junkies think... the only one responsible for you is YOU

The man is working, he's just not getting paid enough to put the food on the table...hence we need an increase in the minimum wage.

And you do realize that raising minimum wage increases unemployment, right??

You do realize to that you are the one responsible for advancing your skills to demand more compensation?? And that even the most incapable fool can earn more than minimum wage with time served in a fast food job... Even morons get shift supervisor positions in McDonalds

Yup. Eventually more chiefs than indians. That always worked.

 

[Cuyo]

And where the jobs have been created is rather interesting:

Obama is attacking the sector with the biggest job creation. What will happen to the economy when he destroys that?

He's not attacking manufacturing, I'll have to ask you to source that. To the contrary, reigning in outsourcing is among the things he's campaigned on.

I'll give you this; He hasn't done shit yet in that area, which has been a big disappointment to me. I'm sure you've seen me ranting about that particular issue in other threads. Outsourcing is THE source of our unemployment. Not government, not "socialism," not the banksters -- Outsourcing, period.

We'll see what the next few years bring, once all this healthcare and rabble-rousers prattling about socialism blows over.

 

[boedicca]

He's not attacking manufacturing, I'll have to ask you to source that. To the contrary, reigning in outsourcing is among the things he's campaigned on.

I'll give you this; He hasn't done shit yet in that area, which has been a big disappointment to me. I'm sure you've seen me ranting about that particular issue in other threads. Outsourcing is THE source of our unemployment. Not government, not "socialism," not the banksters -- Outsourcing, period.

We'll see what the next few years bring, once all this healthcare and rabble-rousers prattling about socialism blows over.

Uh.Dood. We've lost manufacturing jobs - the biggest area of creation is health care, which Obama is attacking.

If you want to reverse outsourcing, then the cost of doing business (taxes and regulation being large drivers) has to be reduced. I doubt even that will be enough. We are seeing a major shift in the global economy as China, India et al develop a middle class, at a lower cost point than the U.S. The real answer for us is more innovation, but the current environment doesn't create much incentive for that.

 

[Titanic Sailor]

Obama may utter "lies" that he is attacking health insurance and drug companies, but in reality he is making them even more rich at our expense.

 

[MaggieMae]

Freedom and the concept of personal responsibility for one's own well being is not BS... but your attitude showing that you believe it is BS is very telling

Nobody is supposed to put food on your table but you
2 Thessalonians 3:10
For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat."

Unlike what you whiny leftist entitlement junkies think... the only one responsible for you is YOU

I think you're the last person who should be quoting The Bible. How about quoting Jesus himself whose "liberalism" is precisely the same as being discussed here.

Waiting for the quotes from Jesus about government forced redistribution and not voluntarily giving of one's self

God you're a shallow person. Your Thessalonians quote also says nothing about what would happen to a man should he be UNABLE to work before eating, as long as we're getting so precise here.

“For I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me”
(Matthew 25:35)


“Whoever shuts his ears at the cry of the poor, they also shall cry themselves, but not be heard.”

"The Truth Shall Set You Free"
[but not before it really pisses you off...]

 

[MaggieMae]

I support a local charity that provides training to mentally handicapped people so that they can obtain a job to support themselves, and they also help find roommates to share expenses
I support various medical charities close to my heart such as St. Jude's and ADA
I support a batter women's shelter that helps the women and their children get back on their feet after such a traumatic experience

When I have volunteered time with my kids... I certainly do not preach.... but I don't buy every 'woe is me' bullshit story and the claim by so many that they 'need' something... many confuse 'needy' with 'wanty' because many simply choose not to do what they have to do and would rather take the handout

I'm sorry, but I have an extremely difficult time believing you support and/or volunteer in any of those areas. You simply do not have the compassion required to be sincere, and most people in such need can usually spot a phony a mile away.

Yeah... having a political opinion that differs from you inherently means that one is not compassionate and one cannot support charity...
No, it doesn't. There are plenty of people who prefer to give to charity, and give a LOT, and they are honest in their efforts. I just don't believe YOU. And that is because of your comments here.

I'll give you a hint too... forced redistribution is not YOU being compassionate.... but you seem to like being generous with the money of others

It isn't "forced" redistribution any more than it's "forced" redistribution of revenue by way of tax cuts that benefit the wealthy to the detriment of the lower classes. It is EXACTLY the same kind of "redistribution" of wealth.

 

[MaggieMae]

For those who care about truth/reality. the number of poor has been increasing for at least a decade.

So has the artificial "poverty line".

It's rather telling that the Poor in America are often overweight, have big screen TVs, refrigerators, indoor plumbing...while the poor in less capitalist countries live in straw or cardboard huts, eat sporadically at best, and/or are starving to death.

Case in point: North Korea. The serfs are so malnourished that the average height has decreased under communist rule.

OH please, I do wish you people would venture outside your boxes and start reading something other than right wing talking points. They are fat because cheap food is laden with fat. Duh... Now take THAT soundbyte and run with it. Educate yourself.

 

[boedicca]

It isn't "forced" redistribution any more than it's "forced" redistribution of revenue by way of tax cuts that benefit the wealthy to the detriment of the lower classes. It is EXACTLY the same kind of "redistribution" of wealth.

I posted this in another thread - and it's applicable here. Reducing the taxes of the person who pays the taxes is not redistribution of wealth away from those who don't pay. It is a specious and disingenuous to claim it is.

Suppose that everyday 10 men go to PJ's for lunch. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If it were paid the way we pay our taxes, the first four men would pay nothing; the fifth would pay $1; the sixth would pay $3; the seventh $7; the eighth $12; the ninth $18. The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59. The 10 men ate lunch in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement until the owner threw them a curve.

"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20." Now lunch for the 10 would costs only $80. The first four are unaffected. They still eat for free. Can you figure out how to divvy up the $20 savings between the remaining six so that everyone gets his fair share?

The men realize that $20 divided by 6 is $3.33, but if they subtract that from everybody's share, then the fifth and the sixth man would end up being paid to eat their meal. The restaurant owner suggested that it would be only fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount that each paid and he started to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in $2, the seventh paid $5, the eighth paid $9, the ninth paid $12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of $52 instead of $59. Outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man pointing to the tenth, "and he got $7!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got seven times more than me!"

"That's true," shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $7 back when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks."

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor."

The nine men surrounded the tenth man and beat him up. The next day he didn't show up for lunch, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important: They were $52 short!

And that, boys and girls and college instructors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up at the table anymore. There are lots of good restaurants in Switzerland and the Caribbean.

A Tax Fable

 

[MaggieMae]

Yes... ANYONE can claw their way out of a bad situation. ANYONE can be a success... it is your filthy ilk that keeps proclaiming that certain classes of people are helpless, YOU know what is best for them, and that only your mantra will save them from themselves

Only a very few people are truly unable.... and those generally are either wards of the state or committed by family...

You also seem to like to contribute success stories as 'lucky' or 'fortunate'... showing your smug liberal attitude.... because unless people are like you, it is luck that anything good happens... unless they have it handed to them, it is luck... well, I know the hard work and dedication it takes to move up from poverty... I know what it takes to make it in the military... I know that anyone has the freedom to do whatever that have to do or wants to do to pursue happiness and success, and nobody is held back from that freedom... it is you that is delusional thinking that 'the rich' or 'the man' can hold anyone down

You are truly a sick and twisted individual that may indeed be too far gone to be brought back from your programing

There's that "compassion" shining right through. I rest my case on that point, robotman.

Just because some people like me happen to loudly disagree with your staunch position on poverty hardly makes us "filthy" or "twisted" and "programmed."

And yet you still continue to be the one, along with your leftist buddies, that love to proclaim classes of people helpless or incapable

First of all, I was objecting to your exposed INSULTS. Second, yes, there most definitely ARE suppressed people in this country. Too bad you never venture outside a gated community apparently. Try visiting a crowded school room in a lower class neighborhood and check out the quality of education being provided by overly stressed teachers, as opposed to the Cadillac facades and salaries and working conditions of Beverly Hills 90210. Then get back to me.

 

[MaggieMae]

I have my doubts you even now the true meaning of the word "freedom." In this country, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is an indoctrinated FREEDOM on its face. That some people are unable, for a number of reasons to be as fortunate as someone like you (some of which are spelled out for you here) is well, a fact of life.

Yes... ANYONE can claw their way out of a bad situation. ANYONE can be a success... it is your filthy ilk that keeps proclaiming that certain classes of people are helpless, YOU know what is best for them, and that only your mantra will save them from themselves

Only a very few people are truly unable.... and those generally are either wards of the state or committed by family...

You also seem to like to contribute success stories as 'lucky' or 'fortunate'... showing your smug liberal attitude.... because unless people are like you, it is luck that anything good happens... unless they have it handed to them, it is luck... well, I know the hard work and dedication it takes to move up from poverty... I know what it takes to make it in the military... I know that anyone has the freedom to do whatever that have to do or wants to do to pursue happiness and success, and nobody is held back from that freedom... it is you that is delusional thinking that 'the rich' or 'the man' can hold anyone down

You are truly a sick and twisted individual that may indeed be too far gone to be brought back from your programing

Deserves repeating

Mine does too. I'll wrap it up with one word. Bullshit.

 

[DiamondDave]

Yes... ANYONE can claw their way out of a bad situation. ANYONE can be a success... it is your filthy ilk that keeps proclaiming that certain classes of people are helpless, YOU know what is best for them, and that only your mantra will save them from themselves

Only a very few people are truly unable.... and those generally are either wards of the state or committed by family...

You also seem to like to contribute success stories as 'lucky' or 'fortunate'... showing your smug liberal attitude.... because unless people are like you, it is luck that anything good happens... unless they have it handed to them, it is luck... well, I know the hard work and dedication it takes to move up from poverty... I know what it takes to make it in the military... I know that anyone has the freedom to do whatever that have to do or wants to do to pursue happiness and success, and nobody is held back from that freedom... it is you that is delusional thinking that 'the rich' or 'the man' can hold anyone down

You are truly a sick and twisted individual that may indeed be too far gone to be brought back from your programing

Deserves repeating

Mine does too. I'll wrap it up with one word. Bullshit.

All your words have been nothing but bullshit

 

[MaggieMae]

The man is working, he's just not getting paid enough to put the food on the table...hence we need an increase in the minimum wage.

And you do realize that raising minimum wage increases unemployment, right??

You do realize to that you are the one responsible for advancing your skills to demand more compensation?? And that even the most incapable fool can earn more than minimum wage with time served in a fast food job... Even morons get shift supervisor positions in McDonalds

I've already posted a link that shows there has been no net loss of jobs the last several times the minimum wage was raised. It also showed that the majority of those making minimum wage are adults, not teenagers.

The truth is that we had a much better economy when the wealthy paid more taxes and minimum wage had more spending power.

My circle of friends includes wealthier people, and I can tell you right now that none of them complained when their tax rate went up to around 39% when Clinton and the Republicans were trying to balance the budget.

 

[DiamondDave]

There's that "compassion" shining right through. I rest my case on that point, robotman.

Just because some people like me happen to loudly disagree with your staunch position on poverty hardly makes us "filthy" or "twisted" and "programmed."

And yet you still continue to be the one, along with your leftist buddies, that love to proclaim classes of people helpless or incapable

First of all, I was objecting to your exposed INSULTS. Second, yes, there most definitely ARE suppressed people in this country. Too bad you never venture outside a gated community apparently. Try visiting a crowded school room in a lower class neighborhood and check out the quality of education being provided by overly stressed teachers, as opposed to the Cadillac facades and salaries and working conditions of Beverly Hills 90210. Then get back to me.

No... it makes you feel good to say there are.... there are not suppressed people in this country... there are people who succeed, people who do ok, and people who do not succeed.... I do not live in a gated community and have lived in the poorest parts of various areas before getting to the neighborhood I am now.... I visit the schools of both of my daughters that are over capacity due to recent growth in the area...

You seem to think that people that are like me could never have stated as the lowest of the low on the ladder of life... that is where you are completely wrong and full of bullshit... just as it is complete bullshit that you put the label of incapable on 'the poor'... anyone can make it in this country... just because everyone does not, does not prove your stance

 

[MaggieMae]

The number of homeless in our own country has increased. And while some of the poor have big screen tvs, not all of them do. I know someone that got one 2nd hand and it was so bad they had to get rid of it but couldn't afford the dump fee. Some idiot rich or middle class person decided to avoid paying the dump fee themselves by giving it to those less fortunate than themselves. Kind of them, wasn't it?

As for being overweight, starch is cheap, lean meats and fresh vegetables are expensive and not everyone can do a garden. I've tried, this will be my 3rd year and each time so far it's cost me more than I've saved.

I know a guy that flew clear across the country for a job, only to be laid off a few months later. It took him two years before he found a charity willing to pay for his ticket home, in the meantime he lived in a storage shed, did odd jobs and got food from various churches.

Oh, and btw, our height is going down too.

We don't live in a Utopia.

You can pick the uncertainty of freedom or the certainty of totalitarian misery. That's about it. Those of us who prefer the former have an optimistic view of humanity - we believe individuals will be more successful in determining their own lives than having a state apparatus decide for them. The problems you point out in our country exist in others that are less free on a much more massive scale.

There is a little saying: Perfection Should Not Be The Enemy Of The Good.

Chew on that.

Knock yourself out. Most of us do strive for better lives. But to deny that real poverty exists and that without government programs, the impoverished would have better opportunities through private charity alone is just being downright stupid.