Religion.... As An Excuse For Socialism?

[Dot Com]

An accurate understanding of the Bible requires the distinction between 'redistribution' and 'generosity.'

"Some people conclude from these verses that the Bible supports government-enforced wealth redistribution. But what these verses really show is that the Bible advocates generosity.

These are two very different concepts.
Generosity springs from free will....not force, coercion, or threats.

I try to avoid your crazy because- you know- crazy.

But here's the thing. Jesus says that the rich who don't share with the poor are going to Hell.

State sanctioned redistribution have behind it the threat of confiscation, imprisonment or even execution at the harsher ends of it.

How are not both "coercive"? Frankly, I think threatening you with eternal damnation and hellfire is a lot more coercive than, "Well, if we catch you cheating on your 1040, we'll audit you."

Be Generous is not a nice suggestion, it's a threat in the Bible. (of course, everything is a threat in the bible, because the Abrahamic Sky Pixie only does threats.)

^ that PoliSpice

enough w/your zany rw cutnpastes

 

[deltex1]

God did not tell Caesar to redistribute the accumulated wealth of individual citizens. He urged individual citizens to donate..to needy family members and community. I dare say that Caesar is now doing such an "effective" job that individuals concentrate most on family.

 

[PoliticalChic]

10. David Mamet has written: "This is the great contribution of our Judeo-Christian foundation to Western civilization. The principles of justice are laid down in the Torah and the Gospels, and implemented through human actions memorialized in judicial codes.

The written laws and rules are codifications of the unwritten ones worked out over millennia as the result of human interactions and experience."



And this can be seen in the understanding of unforeseen circumstances.....
"Yet God understood that even with hard work, people sometimes make bad decisions; in addition, as King Solomon said, “time and chance happeneth to them all” (Ecclesiastes 9:11). Circumstances do bring people to poverty sometimes. Consider some other economic principles God outlined in order to address this fact of life.

God instructed that arable land be divided up among families and, if sold, returned to the original family at the end of 50 years (Leviticus 25). Think of how far this would go to reduce generational poverty. No government-sanctioned theft (wealth redistribution) here. Just transactions governed by clearly understood law.





Every seventh year, all consumer debts are to be abolished (Deuteronomy 15:1-2). Today, debt is one of the primary causes of bankruptcy and entrenched poverty.

[The plan is followed under most bankruptcy laws..." Each state has its own statute of limitations on how long different types of debt can be collected by suing after initial default before being considered time-barred. This period is typically 3-6 years but a few states such as Kentucky allow much longer time periods (up to 15 years). Declare Bankruptcy or Just Wait Seven Years?

Ungleaned fields are left for the poor (Leviticus 19:10). Wealthy people are not to harvest every last bit of their crops—and poor people are required to work to collect their food." Is God a Socialist?



So....in the Bible we do not find support for communism, nor socialism....but rules that "preserve private incentive. No need for government-enforced wealth redistribution. No need for bureaucrats to decide how much wealth is one’s “fair share.” Ibid.

 

[JoeB131]

I'm really not sure you can apply subsistence farming economics of the bible to the modern world...

But why did you avoid the point that Biblical "generosity" and "Charity" are under the threat of eternal damnation? That sounds a lot more coercive than the government taking your stuff.

 

[PoliticalChic]

An accurate understanding of the Bible requires the distinction between 'redistribution' and 'generosity.'

"Some people conclude from these verses that the Bible supports government-enforced wealth redistribution. But what these verses really show is that the Bible advocates generosity.

These are two very different concepts.
Generosity springs from free will....not force, coercion, or threats.

I try to avoid your crazy because- you know- crazy.

But here's the thing. Jesus says that the rich who don't share with the poor are going to Hell.

State sanctioned redistribution have behind it the threat of confiscation, imprisonment or even execution at the harsher ends of it.

How are not both "coercive"? Frankly, I think threatening you with eternal damnation and hellfire is a lot more coercive than, "Well, if we catch you cheating on your 1040, we'll audit you."

Be Generous is not a nice suggestion, it's a threat in the Bible. (of course, everything is a threat in the bible, because the Abrahamic Sky Pixie only does threats.)

"But why did you avoid the point that Biblical "generosity" and "Charity" are under the threat of eternal damnation?"

They aren't.



1. Where is the quote that Jesus mandates giving to able bodied individuals who refuse to work?

2. .... under God’s system...it is up to the giver to decide to give and how much he or she can afford to give, and, in many cases, whether he or she will give at all! God allows free choice. In fact, free will is essential to true Christianity.

 

[JoeB131]

1. Where is the quote that Jesus mandates giving to able bodied individuals who refuse to work?

2. .... under God’s system...it is up to the giver to decide to give and how much he or she can afford to give, and, in many cases, whether he or she will give at all! God allows free choice. In fact, free will is essential to true Christianity.

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. -- Luke 16:19-25


Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. --Matthew 19:23-24, Mark 10:23-25


But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. -- Luke 6:24


Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. -- James 5:1
The Brick Testament
Jesus and the rich
Revised 2nd Edition

 

[PoliticalChic]

1. Where is the quote that Jesus mandates giving to able bodied individuals who refuse to work?

2. .... under God’s system...it is up to the giver to decide to give and how much he or she can afford to give, and, in many cases, whether he or she will give at all! God allows free choice. In fact, free will is essential to true Christianity.

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. -- Luke 16:19-25


Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. --Matthew 19:23-24, Mark 10:23-25


But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. -- Luke 6:24


Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. -- James 5:1
The Brick Testament
Jesus and the rich
Revised 2nd Edition

So we agree....you cannot find any such quote that Jesus mandates giving to able bodied individuals who refuse to work?


And you are unable deny the central position of free will, as well?


Quite the beating you just took, huh?

 

[JoeB131]

So we agree....you cannot find any such quote that Jesus mandates giving to able bodied individuals who refuse to work?


And you are unable deny the central position of free will, as well?


Quite the beating you just took, huh?

Um, no. "I'm going to burn you forever and ever is you don't do what I say" isn't free will.

I'm sorry you don't get this.

And nowhere does Jesus say that the begger was handicapped. Just that he had sores. So he was probably able to do some kind of work.

Now, here's the thing. I'd have no problem requiring everyone who is able bodied to work for their charity. Most of the poor would welcome it. A lot of them already do work, but just not earning enough to put food on the table.

But I'm sure you will go on with 15 more numbered points about how the Bible endorses capitalism.

 

[PoliticalChic]

So we agree....you cannot find any such quote that Jesus mandates giving to able bodied individuals who refuse to work?


And you are unable deny the central position of free will, as well?


Quite the beating you just took, huh?

Um, no. "I'm going to burn you forever and ever is you don't do what I say" isn't free will.

I'm sorry you don't get this.

And nowhere does Jesus say that the begger was handicapped. Just that he had sores. So he was probably able to do some kind of work.

Now, here's the thing. I'd have no problem requiring everyone who is able bodied to work for their charity. Most of the poor would welcome it. A lot of them already do work, but just not earning enough to put food on the table.

But I'm sure you will go on with 15 more numbered points about how the Bible endorses capitalism.

Watch me....as usual.....destroy you:

Did you write this in post #20?

"Jesus says that the rich who don't share with the poor are going to Hell."

But when asked for said quote.....you punted.


Did I just prove that, if you were given an enema, you could be buried in a matchbox?

 

[Dot Com]

So we agree....you cannot find any such quote that Jesus mandates giving to able bodied individuals who refuse to work?


And you are unable deny the central position of free will, as well?


Quite the beating you just took, huh?

Um, no. "I'm going to burn you forever and ever is you don't do what I say" isn't free will.

I'm sorry you don't get this.

And nowhere does Jesus say that the begger was handicapped. Just that he had sores. So he was probably able to do some kind of work.

Now, here's the thing. I'd have no problem requiring everyone who is able bodied to work for their charity. Most of the poor would welcome it. A lot of them already do work, but just not earning enough to put food on the table.

But I'm sure you will go on with 15 more numbered points about how the Bible endorses capitalism.

OP speaks KOrean so the gist is prolly lost in translation. That, and shes never been educated beyond HS

 

[PoliticalChic]

So we agree....you cannot find any such quote that Jesus mandates giving to able bodied individuals who refuse to work?


And you are unable deny the central position of free will, as well?


Quite the beating you just took, huh?

Um, no. "I'm going to burn you forever and ever is you don't do what I say" isn't free will.

I'm sorry you don't get this.

And nowhere does Jesus say that the begger was handicapped. Just that he had sores. So he was probably able to do some kind of work.

Now, here's the thing. I'd have no problem requiring everyone who is able bodied to work for their charity. Most of the poor would welcome it. A lot of them already do work, but just not earning enough to put food on the table.

But I'm sure you will go on with 15 more numbered points about how the Bible endorses capitalism.

"But I'm sure you will go on with 15 more numbered points about how the Bible endorses capitalism."

I would suggest that you only comment on topics about which you have some knowledge.....

....but, then you'd be mute.


The Bible does "endorse capitalism."


Watch me destroy you again.....


11. So....a biblical basis for socialism????

Quite the opposite.

Two thousand years ago, Jesus taught the principle of free-market capitalism in the parable of the talents.


Matthew 25:14-30English Standard Version
The Parable of the Talents
14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants[a]and entrusted to them his property. 15 To one he gave five talents,[b] to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money.

19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant.[c] You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’

22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’



24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents.



29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’





... he finds, to his chagrin, that the slave to whom he had entrusted one talent had simply buried the wealth and had garnered neither gain nor interest. Angered, he orders that the one talent be taken from the timid servant and given to the servant who had invested most boldly.

The problem with the timid servant who buried his talent is not that he was an ineffective venture capitalist but that he fundamentally misunderstood the nature of what he had been given. The Deeper Meaning of the Parable of the Talents | Catholic World Report - Global Church news and views




Couple that parable with this:
In 2 Thessalonians 3:10, Paul said, “If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat”...

..... and one is led, ineluctably, away from socialism, and toward the greatest economic advance in the history of mankind:

capitalism.

 

[PoliticalChic]

12. Bottom line: there is no religious basis for socialism in any form. Any such suggestion is merely an attempt by one of the shameful six...
....communism, socialism, Liberalism, Nazism, Progressivism, or Fascism,...

...to cloak itself in the rectitude of the Bible.




And the reason?
There is no requirement of forced 'charity' in the Bible. .... under biblical direction...it is up to the giver to decide to give and how much he or she can afford to give, and, in many cases, whether he or she will give at all!

That's correct.....there is no demand to underwrite the undeserving.


God allows free choice. In fact, free will is essential to true Christianity.

It is only under the atheistic doctrines communism, socialism, Liberalism, Nazism, Progressivism, or Fascism, that the fruits of one's labor is confiscated, and used by these various totalitarian forms to advance despotism.




Hence....the thesis of this thread:

Not only is the idea of 'socialism' an absolute corruption of the message of the Bible....but the service to others, to customers, provided to accomplish the voluntary transactions that are an inherent part of capitalism is more in accord with Judeo-Christian values than is socialism/Liberalism.


QED: there is no religious defense for socialism.