Re: Country With the World's Most Successful Education System

[777]

From personal experience I can say that Finnish education is absolutely top of the line.
I've had the chance to experience both US and Finnish educational systems.
I was born and raised in Finland until age 19 and went to public schools there.
I have a high school diploma from Finland and bachelor's degree from USA.

What really sets the Finnish system apart from USA?

High school in Finland was much harder than any college class I have ever taken in the USA. Having a 4.0 grade point average in high school was an impossible goal to achieve. Here I was able to graduate from college summa cum laude with a GPA of 3.97 - and it was not too difficult. Now I'm studying for master's degree.

At college I far outperformed most American-born students in just about any academic subject. How can that be? English is not even my native language.

What I have observed is that in the USA students feel entitled to good grades without really doing the work. In Finland, we had no mercy grades. We got the grade we truly deserved. Period.

Excellent work ethic and diligence are lacking among many students in the United States and laziness is rampant in classrooms.

Students lack motivation to excel and are content being just average (Horrifying thought to even think of!). In Finland, we are expected to perform to the best of our ability regardless of outcome.

In Finnish high schools the brainiest students are really admired. In the USA, geeks are made fun of (not always, of course).

In Finland, teaching is truly a very respected profession. I surely would love to be a teacher in Finland but truthfully, I'm not smart enough to be accepted to college there, not even to study English in the University of Finland (already tried).

Overall, I think it is not that Finns are any smarter than Americans. It is the attitude about school that is so very different between the two countries. As long as Americans fail to respect and love education, they will continue finding themselves struggling academically.

 

[code1211]

From personal experience I can say that Finnish education is absolutely top of the line.
I've had the chance to experience both US and Finnish educational systems.
I was born and raised in Finland until age 19 and went to public schools there.
I have a high school diploma from Finland and bachelor's degree from USA.

What really sets the Finnish system apart from USA?

High school in Finland was much harder than any college class I have ever taken in the USA. Having a 4.0 grade point average in high school was an impossible goal to achieve. Here I was able to graduate from college summa cum laude with a GPA of 3.97 - and it was not too difficult. Now I'm studying for master's degree.

At college I far outperformed most American-born students in just about any academic subject. How can that be? English is not even my native language.

What I have observed is that in the USA students feel entitled to good grades without really doing the work. In Finland, we had no mercy grades. We got the grade we truly deserved. Period.

Excellent work ethic and diligence are lacking among many students in the United States and laziness is rampant in classrooms.

Students lack motivation to excel and are content being just average (Horrifying thought to even think of!). In Finland, we are expected to perform to the best of our ability regardless of outcome.

In Finnish high schools the brainiest students are really admired. In the USA, geeks are made fun of (not always, of course).

In Finland, teaching is truly a very respected profession. I surely would love to be a teacher in Finland but truthfully, I'm not smart enough to be accepted to college there, not even to study English in the University of Finland (already tried).

Overall, I think it is not that Finns are any smarter than Americans. It is the attitude about school that is so very different between the two countries. As long as Americans fail to respect and love education, they will continue finding themselves struggling academically.

From my extremely limited contact with Foreign nationals, I would have to agree. Education is the only thing in this country from which almost everyone strives to receive less than we pay for. The exposure to classical knowledge and philosophy along with rigorous science and math has been supplanted here by the feel good social sciences.

It's more important to understand why single sex marriage is good than to understand why Iago was a pain the pitute. In fact the whole Othello thingy is probably too touchy to study in our scholls. A little too much race in this. Not PC, doncha know.

Luckily for Americans, the whole world is now bowing to considerations outside disciplines to find the answer that is popular as opposed to the one that is right. Therefore, the Big 0 gets a peace prize for his work performed as a community organizer in Chicago. Still confused on that. The Norwegians conferred this honor and presumably, they have a rigorous education system like the Finns.

If the rest of the world gets as stupid as us, we will soon be as smart as them.

 

[Diuretic]

But - the US has some of the best universities in the world. And it had (historically) and has some of the finest theoreticians in education in the world. I know that's slightly off point because the topic appears to be about what I would call primary and secondary school education, but what the hell. If there is a deficiency in those areas then it would appear to be something to do with current policy. I suppose the question is, when did it start to go wrong (assuming it has)?

 

[PoliticalChic]

From personal experience I can say that Finnish education is absolutely top of the line.
I've had the chance to experience both US and Finnish educational systems.
I was born and raised in Finland until age 19 and went to public schools there.
I have a high school diploma from Finland and bachelor's degree from USA.

What really sets the Finnish system apart from USA?

High school in Finland was much harder than any college class I have ever taken in the USA. Having a 4.0 grade point average in high school was an impossible goal to achieve. Here I was able to graduate from college summa cum laude with a GPA of 3.97 - and it was not too difficult. Now I'm studying for master's degree.

At college I far outperformed most American-born students in just about any academic subject. How can that be? English is not even my native language.

What I have observed is that in the USA students feel entitled to good grades without really doing the work. In Finland, we had no mercy grades. We got the grade we truly deserved. Period.

Excellent work ethic and diligence are lacking among many students in the United States and laziness is rampant in classrooms.

Students lack motivation to excel and are content being just average (Horrifying thought to even think of!). In Finland, we are expected to perform to the best of our ability regardless of outcome.

In Finnish high schools the brainiest students are really admired. In the USA, geeks are made fun of (not always, of course).

In Finland, teaching is truly a very respected profession. I surely would love to be a teacher in Finland but truthfully, I'm not smart enough to be accepted to college there, not even to study English in the University of Finland (already tried).

Overall, I think it is not that Finns are any smarter than Americans. It is the attitude about school that is so very different between the two countries. As long as Americans fail to respect and love education, they will continue finding themselves struggling academically.

Excellent and informative post, especially the last paragraph.

As I recall, the original threat re: Finnish schools was partly a poke in the eye to those of us who feel that it is the political overlay that is holding back the schools in the US.

But what ever the case, unless the US gets more serious about learning, we will never again be in the vanguard.

 

[PoliticalChic]

But - the US has some of the best universities in the world. And it had (historically) and has some of the finest theoreticians in education in the world. I know that's slightly off point because the topic appears to be about what I would call primary and secondary school education, but what the hell. If there is a deficiency in those areas then it would appear to be something to do with current policy. I suppose the question is, when did it start to go wrong (assuming it has)?

Right on, as far as higher education.

I believe that the US has some 38 or so of the top 40 in the world.

But as far as the future, I just heard that some 75% of student admitted into NY colleges and universites require remedial courses in math or english.

Nationwide, over one million incoming college students require remedial courses. The cost is $2.5 billion to teach those kids what our billions in tax dollars should have taught them already! Diploma to Nowhere? | Partnership for Learning

Why are there 32 million Americans who can’t read or write? Illiteracy - Major U.S. Problem

National Geographic Poll: 63% of 18 to 24 yr olds couldn’t locate Iraq on a map, 70% couldn’t find Iran or Israel, and 90% Afghanistan. And 50% couldn’t find New York State. 2006 National Geographic Roper

School, it seems, is for the teachers, not the kids.

 

[Oddball]

Overall, I think it is not that Finns are any smarter than Americans. It is the attitude about school that is so very different between the two countries. As long as Americans fail to respect and love education, they will continue finding themselves struggling academically.

One thing the American edumacation system seems to excel at is killing the natural love of learning kids have.

 

[chanel]

Social promotion, self esteem, rewarding bad behavior, learning disabilities caused by drug addicted parents, apathy and hostility toward public education, etc. I see it every day. AP classes getting cut in favor of "alternative programs" for the incorrigibles. The system is broken but only the PUBLIC can demand and institute reform. The teachers are powerless.

 

[Oddball]

All of that and the model whereby the class is regularly taught down to the lowest performing students.

Could it be that a portion of the "ADHD" cases are bright kids who are bored out of their socks?

 

[Diuretic]

But - the US has some of the best universities in the world. And it had (historically) and has some of the finest theoreticians in education in the world. I know that's slightly off point because the topic appears to be about what I would call primary and secondary school education, but what the hell. If there is a deficiency in those areas then it would appear to be something to do with current policy. I suppose the question is, when did it start to go wrong (assuming it has)?

Right on, as far as higher education.

I believe that the US has some 38 or so of the top 40 in the world.

But as far as the future, I just heard that some 75% of student admitted into NY colleges and universites require remedial courses in math or english.

Nationwide, over one million incoming college students require remedial courses. The cost is $2.5 billion to teach those kids what our billions in tax dollars should have taught them already! Diploma to Nowhere? | Partnership for Learning

Why are there 32 million Americans who can’t read or write? Illiteracy - Major U.S. Problem

National Geographic Poll: 63% of 18 to 24 yr olds couldn’t locate Iraq on a map, 70% couldn’t find Iran or Israel, and 90% Afghanistan. And 50% couldn’t find New York State. 2006 National Geographic Roper

School, it seems, is for the teachers, not the kids.

I have to say that as far as remedial classes go it's the same situation here in Australia. I'm reluctant to lay the blame at anyone's feet because the reasons must surely be more complex than I know. It's tempting for me, as a baby boomer, to bang on about how I was taught English grammar at school (painfully) and suggest it's how it should have been taught recently and now (why would I really need to know what a gerund is anyway?). I do know that here - and I would think in other parts of the English-speaking world that there is a continuing debate over how children should be taught about their language. But remedial classes for uni students is a big worry.

 

[Diuretic]

chanel and Dude's comments - these point to a systemic failure (I know, such a revelation by me ) which appears to be on other shores as well. Do we expect too much from schools?

Shouldn't we ask for an education and some socialisation of children but not demand schools be responsible for bringing up children?

Some schools here have breakfast programmes - that might seem unsurprising to some, but my state, for the most part, doesn't have major areas of privation. It does have some pockets of poverty but I think some parents just don't give a toss about their children and they expect the school to do the parenting for them.

Can we expect schools to do all this and then flog them mercilessly when they apparently fail?

Also I'm interested in current theories of how children learn, I'm not informed at all in that area beyond some background information. I wonder if that's a problem as well?

 

[Oddball]

Well, when the school starts to be looked upon as a secondary parent, they get farther away from being primarily educators. Couple that with the undeniable fact that state educators have become part-time social propagandists, and there is naturally less time for teaching the basics.

Notably, fee-for-service schools in America don't seem to have such problems on a widespread basis. Quite probably because the parents have some of that "skin in the game".

 

[PoliticalChic]

chanel and Dude's comments - these point to a systemic failure (I know, such a revelation by me ) which appears to be on other shores as well. Do we expect too much from schools?

Shouldn't we ask for an education and some socialisation of children but not demand schools be responsible for bringing up children?

Some schools here have breakfast programmes - that might seem unsurprising to some, but my state, for the most part, doesn't have major areas of privation. It does have some pockets of poverty but I think some parents just don't give a toss about their children and they expect the school to do the parenting for them.

Can we expect schools to do all this and then flog them mercilessly when they apparently fail?

Also I'm interested in current theories of how children learn, I'm not informed at all in that area beyond some background information. I wonder if that's a problem as well?

I wonder if the following holds any interest for you?

"Methods and purposes of traditional or classical
education,there should be drilling and memorizing, always, of course,
keeping in mind ancient Greek admonitions regarding “moderation in all things” and
“nothing to excess.” The same applies to work; students should be expected to work
reasonably hard. Skills such as critical thinking, problem solving, analysis and synthesis
should be acquired as students study significant subject matter.

How then can we be sure that rejecting progressive education and replacing it
with traditional and classical notions regarding education will result in enhanced student
achievement, higher literacy rates and, one hopes, more intelligent participation in
democratic processes? Data are already available that show that students in nonprogressive schools achieve at higher rates than those in progressive schools and that
students from deprived backgrounds do better in non-progressive schools.

Comparative studies of student achievement have consistently shown that students from the U.S. do poorly, especially in science and mathematics, when compared with students from other industrialized nations. It is, to be sure, not surprising if students from schools which stress hard work, practice, memorization and mastery of content do better on standardized tests.

Data from comparative studies have already provided ammunition for those who consider
progressive education a seriously flawed philosophy of education that should be exposed
and rejected."

http://www.macalester.edu/~reedy/Samos07-ULTIssima-3[1].pdf

 

[mightypeon]

All of that and the model whereby the class is regularly taught down to the lowest performing students.

Could it be that a portion of the "ADHD" cases are bright kids who are bored out of their socks?

Very likely a major case, in Germany, "Troublesome" Kids are usually sent into "Foerderschulen" (special schools, really nice socially but with very bad job chances later), a report revealed that about 80% of the inhabitants of those schools could be easily teached in normal schools.
I would guess its largely the same in the USA.

 

[chanel]

But - the US has some of the best universities in the world. And it had (historically) and has some of the finest theoreticians in education in the world. I know that's slightly off point because the topic appears to be about what I would call primary and secondary school education, but what the hell. If there is a deficiency in those areas then it would appear to be something to do with current policy. I suppose the question is, when did it start to go wrong (assuming it has)?

Right on, as far as higher education.

I believe that the US has some 38 or so of the top 40 in the world.

But as far as the future, I just heard that some 75% of student admitted into NY colleges and universites require remedial courses in math or english.

Nationwide, over one million incoming college students require remedial courses. The cost is $2.5 billion to teach those kids what our billions in tax dollars should have taught them already! Diploma to Nowhere? | Partnership for Learning

Why are there 32 million Americans who can’t read or write? Illiteracy - Major U.S. Problem

National Geographic Poll: 63% of 18 to 24 yr olds couldn’t locate Iraq on a map, 70% couldn’t find Iran or Israel, and 90% Afghanistan. And 50% couldn’t find New York State. 2006 National Geographic Roper

School, it seems, is for the teachers, not the kids.

I have to say that as far as remedial classes go it's the same situation here in Australia. I'm reluctant to lay the blame at anyone's feet because the reasons must surely be more complex than I know. It's tempting for me, as a baby boomer, to bang on about how I was taught English grammar at school (painfully) and suggest it's how it should have been taught recently and now (why would I really need to know what a gerund is anyway?). I do know that here - and I would think in other parts of the English-speaking world that there is a continuing debate over how children should be taught about their language. But remedial classes for uni students is a big worry.

The teachers are at my school are big fans of "Summer Heights High". It seems Australia is quite close to the U.S. as far as comedy goes.

Read this article today. Seems the U.K. "progressive educational system" is dumbing down just like the U.S.

As many as three-quarters of state schools are failing to push their brightest pupils because teachers are reluctant to promote 'elitism', an Ofsted study says today.

Many teachers are not convinced of the importance of providing more challenging tasks for their gifted and talented pupils. Bright youngsters told inspectors they were forced to ask for harder work. Others were resentful at being dragooned into 'mentoring' weaker pupils.

In nearly three-quarters of 26 schools studied, pupils designated as being academically gifted or talented in sport or the arts were 'not a priority', Ofsted found.

Teachers feared that a focus on the brightest pupils would 'undermine the school's efforts to improve the attainment and progress of all other groups of pupils'.

Read more: State schools admit they do not push gifted pupils because they don't want to promote 'elitism' | Mail Online


Read more: State schools admit they do not push gifted pupils because they don't want to promote 'elitism' | Mail Online

The latest trend in NJ ed. is to do away with special ed classes. All students will be expected to take college prep. classes. We will have kids with 65 IQs and that can't add without a calculator taking Trig and Physics. They believe that if you "raise the bar" the children will rise to the challenge. I call it "magical thinking". And as Dude said, now all of our college prep classes will be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. Or at best to mediocrity.

I checked out the website of an outstanding charter school in L.A. the other day. High standards which must be met or the student is sent BACK TO PUBLIC SCHOOL. Parents are required to give 25 hours of volunteer services per semester or THE CHILD IS PUNISHED. There is no way could a public school get away with that. The ACLU would be filing lawsuits daily.

 

[Diuretic]

Thank you PC and chanel, I shall read with interest.

 

[Diuretic]

Daily Mail article:

Many teachers are not convinced of the importance of providing more challenging tasks for their gifted and talented pupils.

Assuming this is accurate - so are they condemning them to boredom? Are they refusing to allow them a chance to develop their potential?

Bright youngsters told inspectors they were forced to ask for harder work. Others were resentful at being dragooned into 'mentoring' weaker pupils.

Are teachers in the UK trained to handle mixed ability classes I wonder? I spent nearly five years of secondary education in the UK system. I attended a comprehensive school in which from the first year students were streamed. Until year 4 of secondary schooling I was in the “bloody awful at maths/science and good at literature/arts” group in the grammar stream. That must have made the workload a bit easier for teachers.

As a child in primary school I was asked by my English teacher to help others with reading. I didn't feel dragooned. Maybe some children need to understand that helping others isn't a bad thing.

Teachers feared that a focus on the brightest pupils would 'undermine the school's efforts to improve the attainment and progress of all other groups of pupils'.

I'd suggest what might be more usual is that the children in the middle get ignored while bright children or ones that need help get more attention. I can see where the article is focused though. If that attitude is held by most teachers in the UK then it needs to be corrected because it's not helpful.

If ideology is getting in the way of good educational practice then that's a problem.

 

[Diuretic]

Will read the Reedy article carefully, hope to respond a little later. Interesting topic this one.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Daily Mail article:

Many teachers are not convinced of the importance of providing more challenging tasks for their gifted and talented pupils.

Assuming this is accurate - so are they condemning them to boredom? Are they refusing to allow them a chance to develop their potential?

Bright youngsters told inspectors they were forced to ask for harder work. Others were resentful at being dragooned into 'mentoring' weaker pupils.

Are teachers in the UK trained to handle mixed ability classes I wonder? I spent nearly five years of secondary education in the UK system. I attended a comprehensive school in which from the first year students were streamed. Until year 4 of secondary schooling I was in the “bloody awful at maths/science and good at literature/arts” group in the grammar stream. That must have made the workload a bit easier for teachers.

As a child in primary school I was asked by my English teacher to help others with reading. I didn't feel dragooned. Maybe some children need to understand that helping others isn't a bad thing.

Teachers feared that a focus on the brightest pupils would 'undermine the school's efforts to improve the attainment and progress of all other groups of pupils'.

I'd suggest what might be more usual is that the children in the middle get ignored while bright children or ones that need help get more attention. I can see where the article is focused though. If that attitude is held by most teachers in the UK then it needs to be corrected because it's not helpful.

If ideology is getting in the way of good educational practice then that's a problem.

Sorry, but it is not only the UK. We in the US suffer from the same epidemic.

1.At a recent meeting of the New York Teaching Fellows program (“Teach for America”: provides an alternate route to state certification for about 1,700 new teachers annually) , Sol Stern found the one book that the fellows had to read in full was Pedagogy of the Oppressed, by the Brazilian educator Paulo Freire.
This book has achieved near-iconic status in America’s teacher-training programs. In 2003, David Steiner and Susan Rozen published a study examining the curricula of 16 schools of education—14 of them among the top-ranked institutions in the country, according to U.S. News and World Report—and found that Pedagogy of the Oppressed was one of the most frequently assigned texts in their philosophy of education courses.

2. The pedagogical point of Freire’s thesis : its opposition to taxing students with any actual academic content, which Freire derides as “official knowledge” that serves to rationalize inequality within capitalist society. Freire proposes instead that teachers partner with their coequals, the students, in a “dialogic” and “problem-solving” process until the roles of teacher and student merge into “teacher-students” and “student-teachers.”

3. Freire’s strictures reinforced another cherished myth of American progressive ed—that traditional teacher-directed lessons left students passive and disengaged, leading to higher drop-out rates for minorities and the poor. That description was more than a caricature; it was a complete fabrication. Over the last two decades, E. D. Hirsch’s Core Knowledge schools have proved over and over again not only that content-rich teaching raises the academic achievement of poor children on standardized tests but that those students remain curious, intellectually stimulated, and engaged—though the education schools continue to ignore these documented successes.

Pedagogy of the Oppressor by Sol Stern, City Journal Spring 2009

Sorry to give you so much homework, but if you have the time, 'give it a read.'

 

[Diuretic]

Again thank you, I will.

I read Reedy, I really read Reedy,
I read Reedy, I really read Reedy,

(sorry, got caught up in the opening bars of "Girl from Ipanema" while I was writing the post....)

Now, having done that and had a think about it it seems to me that cognitive psychology should be heeded. I understand that children are not simply taught or that they simply learn, they have to be helped to develop all their intellectual and emotional qualities (interesting that in one part of Reedy's piece it could be interpreted as him criticising home learning, but that's another issue), but I am strongly of the view that cognitive psychology should be showing the way.

Freire. I'm of the opinion that he was very good for adult education, in particular adults who are illiterate. I'll read that article and see what comes out of it.

 

[Truthmatters]

You have to pay teachers well if you want the best to enter teaching.

Cons would call that "throwing money at the problem".