Rapper - Fuck the Troops?

[NoNukes]

i think rdeans point is that the policies of the gop have hurt the troops and vets more than the lyrics of a rap song....

but through his whole post.....not one word saying fuck you to the rapper....

He was not supporting the rapper, but making a point.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

This discussion board is a good example of why America will never be united again. The left thought by electing obama to office it would somehow bring us close together, but it backed fire. They found out the common working c lass do not want hand outs and think everybody should work for what they have. You forced this on us and now you whine because we won't accept it.

 

[NoNukes]

This discussion board is a good example of why America will never be united again. The left thought by electing obama to office it would somehow bring us close together, but it backed fire. They found out the common working c lass do not want hand outs and think everybody should work for what they have. You forced this on us and now you whine because we won't accept it.

And the right is squeaky clean?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

This discussion board is a good example of why America will never be united again. The left thought by electing obama to office it would somehow bring us close together, but it backed fire. They found out the common working c lass do not want hand outs and think everybody should work for what they have. You forced this on us and now you whine because we won't accept it.

And the right is squeaky clean?

Republican or Democrat both want the same goal, but both go about achieveing that goal differently.

 

[daveman]

Did you take classes when you were little on how to love america? Did they have community seminars? How about this: there is more information about the rest of the world more easily available because of technology. People in America don't live in a vacuum anymore as much as they used to. We don't have to get our news through somebody else anymore. We can get it straight from the source because of the internet. People simply understand that America is not that great. It's not bad, but its not exceptional. It's just another country with its own set of problems This forced American Exceptionalism that republicans try to force down everyone's throat is contrived. They trey to re-create the 'good old days,' not realizing that this 'deep respect' for our country was an indoctrination allowed only by a lack of differing viewpoints in earlier generations. Yes, it may be a more comfortable place to live relative to other parts of the world, but we still have problems, and there are other equally great if not better places to live in the world. But, who cares. I live and was born here, and I love my country regardless. I don't need to pass some patriotic test, nor or do I don't need to lie to myself about about how good my country is, or be forced to conform to someone else's ideal of America. I am a real american by speaking my mind and exercising my rights, even if that opinion isn't a positive one for America. Conservative minded people have no concept of this. Their philosophy, 'its our way or the highway.' The irony being that this is extremely un-american.

You are a perfect example of everything that is wrong with this nation today. You are willing to demean your country, because you have no concept of the value, or the price, of the freedom you take for granted. America isn't different, huh? Well, in the so-called "great democracies" of Europe, you can be jailed for simply saying the wrong thing-but not here. In some of the world's "democracies" you can be imprisoned without trial, indefinitely, or be presumed guilty until PROVEN innocent-that's not how it works, not here. America is nothing special, eh? You show me one other country that has put men on the moon (and we did that, over forty years ago!) Oh and by the way, of those other countries that criticize America so much, you show me one, that has been more generous, or been there for more people in more places, than America-not one of them, NOT ONE can say that!

"Indoctrination"? Well, I suppose you could call it that. When I was a kid, in the bad old days right after WW II, we were taught to love our country. We were taught the difference between communism and freedom, and we knew which our troops in Korea (who were often our dads, or uncles, or older brothers), were fighting for; (and we damn sure didn't spit on them or call them names when they came home, either!) Yes, we were taught citizenship, in our schools; we were taught to pledge allegiance to the flag, and to stand at attention for the national anthem; we were taught to respect the flag, obey the law,and do the right thing. We were taught to respect adults, and if we did not, we got our butts whipped. It's called discipline-today, some people call it "child abuse". If a teacher paddled us, we got another when our parents found out. We were taught respect for others, and their property; we WEREN'T taught to be arrogant disrespectful, self-centered, mouthy little brats! We were taught self-discipline, and honor, too. I wonder how many of your generation would actually have been inspired when JFK said "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country!" Sure isn't the mentality of the "entitlement generation", now is it?

You can call it whatever you want, but most of you today don't have those values, and you are the poorer for it. The vast majority of you are aimless, self-absorbed, egotistical, spoiled brats who have never gotten any calluses on your hands, don't know what hard work is (and don't care), don't know the meaning of the concepts of Duty, Honor, and Country, and don't understand self-sacrifice. The majority of you, having had little discipline in your lives, cannot discipline yourselves. Most of you have never served your country, and don't want to; you'll leave that to someone else. As a result, you don't know what it is like to go to places where there is no freedom, and people have to fight for it. You have no idea what it is like to come back from a place like that, and see Old Glory waving in the breeze. For those of us who have, the sight of her has a meaning you will never know. You call yourselves "citizens of the world", now, without understanding what that means. You scorn patriotism and traditional values as old-fashioned and out-of-date. Those of us who do not, are guilty (in your eyes) of the "awful "crime" of "Jingoism". Now it's all about YOUR rights, YOUR desires, YOUR wants, and to hell with anyone else's; but hey, you got them (thanks to someone else) and you can use, or misuse, them any way you like; it's the American way, right? Actually that only works when you protect and respect the rights of your fellow Americans the same way you do your own, but no one taught you that; my goodness, you might have to "conform" and we can't have that! Interesting, because you'll conform to peer pressure and fads without a whimper.

All this is not entirely your fault, of course; you are the result of bad (or simply negligent) parenting, and at least partly the result of a country that still hasn't sorted out the results of the social revolution it went through fifty years or so ago, when part of my generation decided it wanted to throw out "traditional values" without having any real idea what to replace those with. As a result, you've grown up with a culture of "anything goes", which serves neither you nor America well, but you don't know any better. You had better find something better, though, because if you do not, and you keep doing what you do, you will eventually piss this country (and your freedom), right down the drain, and you won't even recognize you're doing it, until it's too late. You may not like what I say, and you may not like me, but this is your wake up call, and you had better pay attention while you can, or one day freedom will be just a memory for you, and then you'll learn that getting it back is a whole lot tougher, than what you should have done to keep it!

You showed no dignity, no such respect of that which you just spoke, when you presumed that my percieved flaws are the result of bad parenting. This is extremely insulting, and you obviously are blind to your own hypocrisy. How dare you presume to know anything about my life, and much less, attribute flaws about my character that you percieve in such a careless and arrogant manner. This alone invalidates everything you just said. You are an old, sad man, trapped in the past, without a clue of what it is like to grow up in todays world.

Of course I would have rather grown up with guidance, and culture that wasn't superficial, but if you think we are blind to this fact, then you are simply deluding yourself. The dissatisfaction people have with todays pop culture, which is what you are referring to, is evident. Yet, pop culture doesn't define who we are. I don't let my country define me. You seem like yet just another cog in a machine, as it was after WWII, and I understand that. These are different times. No better, no worse. Just different. You perceived your society from a singular place, able now to talk of the romance of the ideals you presented. They do sound romantic, and enchanting. This I can not deny you. Yet, you project your experiences as some kind of bar to be compared against. I'm not saying your generation didn't fight. I am fully aware that many died to preserve the freedoms that we now take for granted, yet I am also aware of the corruption, hypocrisy, war-mongering mentality that brought us into wars we never should have went to. Wars where american soldiers died for no reason. Where innocent people of many different nationalities died for no reason, simply because our political leaders and those behind them, wanted to make a little money.

The evil which America has perpetrated is something I am not blind to. I will give credit where credit is due, but I will not blind myself to certain truths in order to achieve a false patriotism. Just because society taught you that something was right when you were little, doesn't mean it is right. You are only getting one side of the story. that is your problem. You haven't learned the other side of things, and that mostly likely because of attachments, or ego.

We all dream of a time past that was more pure. Unfortunately, this is only a vision for most. We deal with what we are dealt. Some of us grew up in society with less values. Is that our fault? You need to show some class and dignity, regardless of what you believe to be true, and dont ever bring up parenting when talking to someone you do not at all know, especially in an online political forum. Everything you said made sense, until you made yourself out to be an arrogant, self-righteous, asshole. My father passed when I was a little boy, so I guess, you're assumption was correct, but that doesn't mean you should have made it. You could have had a little more respect than that. I didn't have any of the guidance that I wanted, and I hate authority, and I won't bow down to an institution simply because it tells me I should, but that doesn't mean I can't give myself the discipline I need to survive NOW. I adopt and achieve the ideals, beliefs, attitudes, and appreciations I need to survive in todays world, not yesterdays world. That is how life works. You assume that people can't overcome early experiences. That, because many of us today dont' have the guidance we would have liked, we can not gain self-discipline on our own. We can. It is simply a matter of adapting to todays culture, and doing what you need to do to survive. Having ideals is a luxury into todays world that few seem to be able to afford.

I've wisened up, maybe you should look at both sides of the coin, and learn about the incredible evils America has done both abroad and at home. Try to have a balanced view of this country, and not one blinded by romantic youthful experiences. I have learned of things you do obviously haven't learned about America, that have caused me to doubt this nation fundamentally. I still appreciate the rights I have compared to those in certain other countries, but I am not going to bow down to idealism because some ignorant old man tells me about the 'good old days,' when "PEOPLE LEARNED RESPECT." Get real, and get off your high horse.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

-- John Stuart Mill


Let me guess...Howard Zinn fan, huh?

 

[xotoxi]

so.. when did this rapper dude become an icon of lefty politics? Does that, similarly, put Fred Phelps into the right wing squawk box?

Phelps is a Democrat.

No. Phelps is a demon crap.

 

[daveman]

so.. when did this rapper dude become an icon of lefty politics? Does that, similarly, put Fred Phelps into the right wing squawk box?

Phelps is a Democrat.

No. Phelps is a demon crap.

True. But the two are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Douger]

No, fuck you

People of this "ilk" need to be kicked in the nuts

Soulja Boy Apologizes to Soldier Boys | Rolling Stone Music

He's only reiterating your masters sentiments.

portland imc - 2003.06.07 - Military Men Are Dumb, Stupid Animals

 

[yidnar]

the simian beast soulja boy is really saying fuck the white troops !! a sentiment felt by most blacks in this country !!

 

[daveman]

No, fuck you

People of this "ilk" need to be kicked in the nuts

Soulja Boy Apologizes to Soldier Boys | Rolling Stone Music

He's only reiterating your masters sentiments.

portland imc - 2003.06.07 - Military Men Are Dumb, Stupid Animals

"Masters"?

Why do leftists project their need to be inferior on other people? Grow a pair, you sissy bedwetter.

 

[G.T.]

You are a perfect example of everything that is wrong with this nation today. You are willing to demean your country, because you have no concept of the value, or the price, of the freedom you take for granted. America isn't different, huh? Well, in the so-called "great democracies" of Europe, you can be jailed for simply saying the wrong thing-but not here. In some of the world's "democracies" you can be imprisoned without trial, indefinitely, or be presumed guilty until PROVEN innocent-that's not how it works, not here. America is nothing special, eh? You show me one other country that has put men on the moon (and we did that, over forty years ago!) Oh and by the way, of those other countries that criticize America so much, you show me one, that has been more generous, or been there for more people in more places, than America-not one of them, NOT ONE can say that!

"Indoctrination"? Well, I suppose you could call it that. When I was a kid, in the bad old days right after WW II, we were taught to love our country. We were taught the difference between communism and freedom, and we knew which our troops in Korea (who were often our dads, or uncles, or older brothers), were fighting for; (and we damn sure didn't spit on them or call them names when they came home, either!) Yes, we were taught citizenship, in our schools; we were taught to pledge allegiance to the flag, and to stand at attention for the national anthem; we were taught to respect the flag, obey the law,and do the right thing. We were taught to respect adults, and if we did not, we got our butts whipped. It's called discipline-today, some people call it "child abuse". If a teacher paddled us, we got another when our parents found out. We were taught respect for others, and their property; we WEREN'T taught to be arrogant disrespectful, self-centered, mouthy little brats! We were taught self-discipline, and honor, too. I wonder how many of your generation would actually have been inspired when JFK said "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country!" Sure isn't the mentality of the "entitlement generation", now is it?

You can call it whatever you want, but most of you today don't have those values, and you are the poorer for it. The vast majority of you are aimless, self-absorbed, egotistical, spoiled brats who have never gotten any calluses on your hands, don't know what hard work is (and don't care), don't know the meaning of the concepts of Duty, Honor, and Country, and don't understand self-sacrifice. The majority of you, having had little discipline in your lives, cannot discipline yourselves. Most of you have never served your country, and don't want to; you'll leave that to someone else. As a result, you don't know what it is like to go to places where there is no freedom, and people have to fight for it. You have no idea what it is like to come back from a place like that, and see Old Glory waving in the breeze. For those of us who have, the sight of her has a meaning you will never know. You call yourselves "citizens of the world", now, without understanding what that means. You scorn patriotism and traditional values as old-fashioned and out-of-date. Those of us who do not, are guilty (in your eyes) of the "awful "crime" of "Jingoism". Now it's all about YOUR rights, YOUR desires, YOUR wants, and to hell with anyone else's; but hey, you got them (thanks to someone else) and you can use, or misuse, them any way you like; it's the American way, right? Actually that only works when you protect and respect the rights of your fellow Americans the same way you do your own, but no one taught you that; my goodness, you might have to "conform" and we can't have that! Interesting, because you'll conform to peer pressure and fads without a whimper.

All this is not entirely your fault, of course; you are the result of bad (or simply negligent) parenting, and at least partly the result of a country that still hasn't sorted out the results of the social revolution it went through fifty years or so ago, when part of my generation decided it wanted to throw out "traditional values" without having any real idea what to replace those with. As a result, you've grown up with a culture of "anything goes", which serves neither you nor America well, but you don't know any better. You had better find something better, though, because if you do not, and you keep doing what you do, you will eventually piss this country (and your freedom), right down the drain, and you won't even recognize you're doing it, until it's too late. You may not like what I say, and you may not like me, but this is your wake up call, and you had better pay attention while you can, or one day freedom will be just a memory for you, and then you'll learn that getting it back is a whole lot tougher, than what you should have done to keep it!

You showed no dignity, no such respect of that which you just spoke, when you presumed that my percieved flaws are the result of bad parenting. This is extremely insulting, and you obviously are blind to your own hypocrisy. How dare you presume to know anything about my life, and much less, attribute flaws about my character that you percieve in such a careless and arrogant manner. This alone invalidates everything you just said. You are an old, sad man, trapped in the past, without a clue of what it is like to grow up in todays world.

Of course I would have rather grown up with guidance, and culture that wasn't superficial, but if you think we are blind to this fact, then you are simply deluding yourself. The dissatisfaction people have with todays pop culture, which is what you are referring to, is evident. Yet, pop culture doesn't define who we are. I don't let my country define me. You seem like yet just another cog in a machine, as it was after WWII, and I understand that. These are different times. No better, no worse. Just different. You perceived your society from a singular place, able now to talk of the romance of the ideals you presented. They do sound romantic, and enchanting. This I can not deny you. Yet, you project your experiences as some kind of bar to be compared against. I'm not saying your generation didn't fight. I am fully aware that many died to preserve the freedoms that we now take for granted, yet I am also aware of the corruption, hypocrisy, war-mongering mentality that brought us into wars we never should have went to. Wars where american soldiers died for no reason. Where innocent people of many different nationalities died for no reason, simply because our political leaders and those behind them, wanted to make a little money.

The evil which America has perpetrated is something I am not blind to. I will give credit where credit is due, but I will not blind myself to certain truths in order to achieve a false patriotism. Just because society taught you that something was right when you were little, doesn't mean it is right. You are only getting one side of the story. that is your problem. You haven't learned the other side of things, and that mostly likely because of attachments, or ego.

We all dream of a time past that was more pure. Unfortunately, this is only a vision for most. We deal with what we are dealt. Some of us grew up in society with less values. Is that our fault? You need to show some class and dignity, regardless of what you believe to be true, and dont ever bring up parenting when talking to someone you do not at all know, especially in an online political forum. Everything you said made sense, until you made yourself out to be an arrogant, self-righteous, asshole. My father passed when I was a little boy, so I guess, you're assumption was correct, but that doesn't mean you should have made it. You could have had a little more respect than that. I didn't have any of the guidance that I wanted, and I hate authority, and I won't bow down to an institution simply because it tells me I should, but that doesn't mean I can't give myself the discipline I need to survive NOW. I adopt and achieve the ideals, beliefs, attitudes, and appreciations I need to survive in todays world, not yesterdays world. That is how life works. You assume that people can't overcome early experiences. That, because many of us today dont' have the guidance we would have liked, we can not gain self-discipline on our own. We can. It is simply a matter of adapting to todays culture, and doing what you need to do to survive. Having ideals is a luxury into todays world that few seem to be able to afford.

I've wisened up, maybe you should look at both sides of the coin, and learn about the incredible evils America has done both abroad and at home. Try to have a balanced view of this country, and not one blinded by romantic youthful experiences. I have learned of things you do obviously haven't learned about America, that have caused me to doubt this nation fundamentally. I still appreciate the rights I have compared to those in certain other countries, but I am not going to bow down to idealism because some ignorant old man tells me about the 'good old days,' when "PEOPLE LEARNED RESPECT." Get real, and get off your high horse.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

-- John Stuart Mill


Let me guess...Howard Zinn fan, huh?

Not fighting in the Military does not mean that you have no cause that you'd fight for.

 

[daveman]

You showed no dignity, no such respect of that which you just spoke, when you presumed that my percieved flaws are the result of bad parenting. This is extremely insulting, and you obviously are blind to your own hypocrisy. How dare you presume to know anything about my life, and much less, attribute flaws about my character that you percieve in such a careless and arrogant manner. This alone invalidates everything you just said. You are an old, sad man, trapped in the past, without a clue of what it is like to grow up in todays world.

Of course I would have rather grown up with guidance, and culture that wasn't superficial, but if you think we are blind to this fact, then you are simply deluding yourself. The dissatisfaction people have with todays pop culture, which is what you are referring to, is evident. Yet, pop culture doesn't define who we are. I don't let my country define me. You seem like yet just another cog in a machine, as it was after WWII, and I understand that. These are different times. No better, no worse. Just different. You perceived your society from a singular place, able now to talk of the romance of the ideals you presented. They do sound romantic, and enchanting. This I can not deny you. Yet, you project your experiences as some kind of bar to be compared against. I'm not saying your generation didn't fight. I am fully aware that many died to preserve the freedoms that we now take for granted, yet I am also aware of the corruption, hypocrisy, war-mongering mentality that brought us into wars we never should have went to. Wars where american soldiers died for no reason. Where innocent people of many different nationalities died for no reason, simply because our political leaders and those behind them, wanted to make a little money.

The evil which America has perpetrated is something I am not blind to. I will give credit where credit is due, but I will not blind myself to certain truths in order to achieve a false patriotism. Just because society taught you that something was right when you were little, doesn't mean it is right. You are only getting one side of the story. that is your problem. You haven't learned the other side of things, and that mostly likely because of attachments, or ego.

We all dream of a time past that was more pure. Unfortunately, this is only a vision for most. We deal with what we are dealt. Some of us grew up in society with less values. Is that our fault? You need to show some class and dignity, regardless of what you believe to be true, and dont ever bring up parenting when talking to someone you do not at all know, especially in an online political forum. Everything you said made sense, until you made yourself out to be an arrogant, self-righteous, asshole. My father passed when I was a little boy, so I guess, you're assumption was correct, but that doesn't mean you should have made it. You could have had a little more respect than that. I didn't have any of the guidance that I wanted, and I hate authority, and I won't bow down to an institution simply because it tells me I should, but that doesn't mean I can't give myself the discipline I need to survive NOW. I adopt and achieve the ideals, beliefs, attitudes, and appreciations I need to survive in todays world, not yesterdays world. That is how life works. You assume that people can't overcome early experiences. That, because many of us today dont' have the guidance we would have liked, we can not gain self-discipline on our own. We can. It is simply a matter of adapting to todays culture, and doing what you need to do to survive. Having ideals is a luxury into todays world that few seem to be able to afford.

I've wisened up, maybe you should look at both sides of the coin, and learn about the incredible evils America has done both abroad and at home. Try to have a balanced view of this country, and not one blinded by romantic youthful experiences. I have learned of things you do obviously haven't learned about America, that have caused me to doubt this nation fundamentally. I still appreciate the rights I have compared to those in certain other countries, but I am not going to bow down to idealism because some ignorant old man tells me about the 'good old days,' when "PEOPLE LEARNED RESPECT." Get real, and get off your high horse.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

-- John Stuart Mill


Let me guess...Howard Zinn fan, huh?

Not fighting in the Military does not mean that you have no cause that you'd fight for.

In my experience, military-haters are pussies.

 

[G.T.]

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

-- John Stuart Mill


Let me guess...Howard Zinn fan, huh?

Not fighting in the Military does not mean that you have no cause that you'd fight for.

In my experience, military-haters are pussies.

Not being in the military doesn't make you a military hater.

Not being in the military doesn't make you a pussy.

Not being in the military doesn't mean there's nothing you'd fight for. It doesn't mean there's nothing you'd die for.

 

[Intense]

Republicans fucked them first, sending them to Iraq with old and rusty equipment.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/08/i...8cnd-rumsfeld.html?pagewanted=print&position=

Republicans fucked them second by working to cut veterans benefits.

Senator Tom Coburn holding up Veterans benefits bill - National progressive politics | Examiner.com

McCain runs against Veterans. Too many benefits, won't stay trapped in the military. Third time fucked.

McCain, Obama spar on veterans benefits - USATODAY.com

So remember, Republicans fucked the troops FIRST, SECOND, and THIRD. Don't call the "truth" a "lie".

Republicans fucked them second by working to cut veterans benefits.

Where do you think the Clinton Years got all the cash, Moron. Fuckin Idiot.

 

[The Gadfly]

Did you take classes when you were little on how to love america? Did they have community seminars? How about this: there is more information about the rest of the world more easily available because of technology. People in America don't live in a vacuum anymore as much as they used to. We don't have to get our news through somebody else anymore. We can get it straight from the source because of the internet. People simply understand that America is not that great. It's not bad, but its not exceptional. It's just another country with its own set of problems This forced American Exceptionalism that republicans try to force down everyone's throat is contrived. They trey to re-create the 'good old days,' not realizing that this 'deep respect' for our country was an indoctrination allowed only by a lack of differing viewpoints in earlier generations. Yes, it may be a more comfortable place to live relative to other parts of the world, but we still have problems, and there are other equally great if not better places to live in the world. But, who cares. I live and was born here, and I love my country regardless. I don't need to pass some patriotic test, nor or do I don't need to lie to myself about about how good my country is, or be forced to conform to someone else's ideal of America. I am a real american by speaking my mind and exercising my rights, even if that opinion isn't a positive one for America. Conservative minded people have no concept of this. Their philosophy, 'its our way or the highway.' The irony being that this is extremely un-american.

You are a perfect example of everything that is wrong with this nation today. You are willing to demean your country, because you have no concept of the value, or the price, of the freedom you take for granted. America isn't different, huh? Well, in the so-called "great democracies" of Europe, you can be jailed for simply saying the wrong thing-but not here. In some of the world's "democracies" you can be imprisoned without trial, indefinitely, or be presumed guilty until PROVEN innocent-that's not how it works, not here. America is nothing special, eh? You show me one other country that has put men on the moon (and we did that, over forty years ago!) Oh and by the way, of those other countries that criticize America so much, you show me one, that has been more generous, or been there for more people in more places, than America-not one of them, NOT ONE can say that!

"Indoctrination"? Well, I suppose you could call it that. When I was a kid, in the bad old days right after WW II, we were taught to love our country. We were taught the difference between communism and freedom, and we knew which our troops in Korea (who were often our dads, or uncles, or older brothers), were fighting for; (and we damn sure didn't spit on them or call them names when they came home, either!) Yes, we were taught citizenship, in our schools; we were taught to pledge allegiance to the flag, and to stand at attention for the national anthem; we were taught to respect the flag, obey the law,and do the right thing. We were taught to respect adults, and if we did not, we got our butts whipped. It's called discipline-today, some people call it "child abuse". If a teacher paddled us, we got another when our parents found out. We were taught respect for others, and their property; we WEREN'T taught to be arrogant disrespectful, self-centered, mouthy little brats! We were taught self-discipline, and honor, too. I wonder how many of your generation would actually have been inspired when JFK said "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country!" Sure isn't the mentality of the "entitlement generation", now is it?

You can call it whatever you want, but most of you today don't have those values, and you are the poorer for it. The vast majority of you are aimless, self-absorbed, egotistical, spoiled brats who have never gotten any calluses on your hands, don't know what hard work is (and don't care), don't know the meaning of the concepts of Duty, Honor, and Country, and don't understand self-sacrifice. The majority of you, having had little discipline in your lives, cannot discipline yourselves. Most of you have never served your country, and don't want to; you'll leave that to someone else. As a result, you don't know what it is like to go to places where there is no freedom, and people have to fight for it. You have no idea what it is like to come back from a place like that, and see Old Glory waving in the breeze. For those of us who have, the sight of her has a meaning you will never know. You call yourselves "citizens of the world", now, without understanding what that means. You scorn patriotism and traditional values as old-fashioned and out-of-date. Those of us who do not, are guilty (in your eyes) of the "awful "crime" of "Jingoism". Now it's all about YOUR rights, YOUR desires, YOUR wants, and to hell with anyone else's; but hey, you got them (thanks to someone else) and you can use, or misuse, them any way you like; it's the American way, right? Actually that only works when you protect and respect the rights of your fellow Americans the same way you do your own, but no one taught you that; my goodness, you might have to "conform" and we can't have that! Interesting, because you'll conform to peer pressure and fads without a whimper.

All this is not entirely your fault, of course; you are the result of bad (or simply negligent) parenting, and at least partly the result of a country that still hasn't sorted out the results of the social revolution it went through fifty years or so ago, when part of my generation decided it wanted to throw out "traditional values" without having any real idea what to replace those with. As a result, you've grown up with a culture of "anything goes", which serves neither you nor America well, but you don't know any better. You had better find something better, though, because if you do not, and you keep doing what you do, you will eventually piss this country (and your freedom), right down the drain, and you won't even recognize you're doing it, until it's too late. You may not like what I say, and you may not like me, but this is your wake up call, and you had better pay attention while you can, or one day freedom will be just a memory for you, and then you'll learn that getting it back is a whole lot tougher, than what you should have done to keep it!

You showed no dignity, no such respect of that which you just spoke, when you presumed that my percieved flaws are the result of bad parenting. This is extremely insulting, and you obviously are blind to your own hypocrisy. How dare you presume to know anything about my life, and much less, attribute flaws about my character that you percieve in such a careless and arrogant manner. This alone invalidates everything you just said. You are an old, sad man, trapped in the past, without a clue of what it is like to grow up in todays world.

Of course I would have rather grown up with guidance, and culture that wasn't superficial, but if you think we are blind to this fact, then you are simply deluding yourself. The dissatisfaction people have with todays pop culture, which is what you are referring to, is evident. Yet, pop culture doesn't define who we are. I don't let my country define me. You seem like yet just another cog in a machine, as it was after WWII, and I understand that. These are different times. No better, no worse. Just different. You perceived your society from a singular place, able now to talk of the romance of the ideals you presented. They do sound romantic, and enchanting. This I can not deny you. Yet, you project your experiences as some kind of bar to be compared against. I'm not saying your generation didn't fight. I am fully aware that many died to preserve the freedoms that we now take for granted, yet I am also aware of the corruption, hypocrisy, war-mongering mentality that brought us into wars we never should have went to. Wars where american soldiers died for no reason. Where innocent people of many different nationalities died for no reason, simply because our political leaders and those behind them, wanted to make a little money.

The evil which America has perpetrated is something I am not blind to. I will give credit where credit is due, but I will not blind myself to certain truths in order to achieve a false patriotism. Just because society taught you that something was right when you were little, doesn't mean it is right. You are only getting one side of the story. that is your problem. You haven't learned the other side of things, and that mostly likely because of attachments, or ego.

We all dream of a time past that was more pure. Unfortunately, this is only a vision for most. We deal with what we are dealt. Some of us grew up in society with less values. Is that our fault? You need to show some class and dignity, regardless of what you believe to be true, and dont ever bring up parenting when talking to someone you do not at all know, especially in an online political forum. Everything you said made sense, until you made yourself out to be an arrogant, self-righteous, asshole. My father passed when I was a little boy, so I guess, you're assumption was correct, but that doesn't mean you should have made it. You could have had a little more respect than that. I didn't have any of the guidance that I wanted, and I hate authority, and I won't bow down to an institution simply because it tells me I should, but that doesn't mean I can't give myself the discipline I need to survive NOW. I adopt and achieve the ideals, beliefs, attitudes, and appreciations I need to survive in todays world, not yesterdays world. That is how life works. You assume that people can't overcome early experiences. That, because many of us today dont' have the guidance we would have liked, we can not gain self-discipline on our own. We can. It is simply a matter of adapting to todays culture, and doing what you need to do to survive. Having ideals is a luxury into todays world that few seem to be able to afford.

I've wisened up, maybe you should look at both sides of the coin, and learn about the incredible evils America has done both abroad and at home. Try to have a balanced view of this country, and not one blinded by romantic youthful experiences. I have learned of things you do obviously haven't learned about America, that have caused me to doubt this nation fundamentally. I still appreciate the rights I have compared to those in certain other countries, but I am not going to bow down to idealism because some ignorant old man tells me about the 'good old days,' when "PEOPLE LEARNED RESPECT." Get real, and get off your high horse.

You'd be amazed what I (or anyone else), can glean about someone's character, values and upbringing, from the things he says. As it turns out, I had you estimated about right. I thought it was likely you had grown up without much fatherly guidance; so many of your generation have, unfortunately. That is a great pity; it is difficult to learn to be a man, without a father to guide you. You, like so many, want guidance and discipline; you are intelligent enough, even when you are quite young, to know you NEED limits, even when you don't LIKE limits. That's one of many reasons so many of you are not fulfilling your potential. Believe it or not, what I feel for you is not hatred, or contempt; it is a mixture of worry, and to a lesser extent, pity.

I am no more blind to America's flaws than you are. Sometimes we get it wrong, at home and abroad. There is not, and never has been, a perfect nation, anywhere. Nations are made and continued by people, and people, even good people, are flawed. What America IS, though, is the best attempt at "getting it right" that has been made to date, anywhere in the world. America is still a work in progress, and only time will tell, if her best days are behind her, or still lie ahead. What will determine that, is how well you do in fact measure up to that bar my generation set for you; the same way our parents' generation set one for us. Every generation sets that bar for the generation that follows, and hopefully, we set it a little higher each time. The one I and my generation set, is one that I hope yours will not only meet, but surpass.

In that regard, you look at ideals as "a luxury few seem to able to afford". Keep thinking that, and you will be and will remain adrift. Ideals are not a luxury; they are a necessity. You think you can't "afford" to have them? The truth is you can't afford NOT to have them! They are the essence of the human spirit, and the ones you choose to adopt define who you are. Let me explain something to you. The things a man defines himself by give him his sense of self worth. A true Jingo defines himself by his country of birth. An adolescent defines himself by his friends and the popular fad of the day. A fool defines himself by his job, his social standing, or his bank account. A hypocrite defines himself by everything he isn't. A real man defines himself by his ideals, by what he aspires to do and be. These give him courage, and hope, these give him something to strive for, to live for, and to die for. They are his compass; they light his path, no matter how dark the way; they give his life a meaning and a purpose greater than himself, and beyond raw animal survival. He will fall short of them, time and again, but in trying he will achieve something, give something, and become something of value beyond his mere existence. Whether he is young or old, a man without ideals and aspirations might as well be dead; he is lifeless and empty; like a marble statue or a lump of coal, he simply exists. Romantic? Perhaps, but is that not a better thing than emptiness? I believe it is; because I have experienced life with ideals, and without them. You see, the cruelest thing about war, is that battle strips away a man's ideals and his humanity until he is reduced to animal survival, until there is no thought of flag, country or ideals at all, and his world is a few meters of bloody ground, where he has nothing to live or die for but himself and those around him. That really IS hell, and one who lives through it gains a new appreciation for having something more to aspire to; for he has been taught just how wretched, poor, and futile mere "survival" really is.

When you "adapt to today's culture" make no mistake, you are giving in to what you profess to hate-authority. Oh, it's a different "authority", but authority nonetheless. You are still letting someone else define you and your goals; you are still "giving in" to something, or someone, as you must to some extent, unless you live on a deserted island, or wish to be a lone prophet crying in the wilderness. However, while you have to survive, you can make changes, however small. If you live among a culture of weeds, never be afraid to pluck one, when you get a chance, and plant a flower instead.

if you live only in and for the present, remember that the past, however sanitized and romanticized, remains the prologue to it, and it has much to teach you. The latest thing is not always the best, or the wisest. Some of yesterday's standards really DO belong in the trash can; others have enduring value, and you discard them at your peril, and the nation's. The key is knowing which are which. One thing you may be certain of; real ideals and standards, the truly useful ones, will demand much of you. I'm afraid the path of fools, being well-used and worn smooth by the passage of so many feet, often appears the more attractive, where the path of the wise is steep, often rocky, and overgrown on account of the lack of traffic; dare to take it anyway.

 

[yidnar]

Not fighting in the Military does not mean that you have no cause that you'd fight for.

In my experience, military-haters are pussies.

Not being in the military doesn't make you a military hater.

Not being in the military doesn't make you a pussy.

Not being in the military doesn't mean there's nothing you'd fight for. It doesn't mean there's nothing you'd die for.

he said people that hate the military are pussies !!not people that never served !! you are a blatant anti American liar !!

 

[G.T.]

In my experience, military-haters are pussies.

Not being in the military doesn't make you a military hater.

Not being in the military doesn't make you a pussy.

Not being in the military doesn't mean there's nothing you'd fight for. It doesn't mean there's nothing you'd die for.

he said people that hate the military are pussies !!not people that never served !! you are a blatant anti American liar !!

-show that I'm anti-American.
-show where I lied about anything.
-learn how to read.

(no particular order)

 

[daveman]

Not fighting in the Military does not mean that you have no cause that you'd fight for.

In my experience, military-haters are pussies.

Not being in the military doesn't make you a military hater.

Not being in the military doesn't make you a pussy.

Not being in the military doesn't mean there's nothing you'd fight for. It doesn't mean there's nothing you'd die for.

In my experience, military-haters are pussies.

 

[G.T.]

In my experience, military-haters are pussies.

Not being in the military doesn't make you a military hater.

Not being in the military doesn't make you a pussy.

Not being in the military doesn't mean there's nothing you'd fight for. It doesn't mean there's nothing you'd die for.

In my experience, military-haters are pussies.

I got it the first time. I was just merely pointing out a distinction that a lot of people forget. Your quote included (not you personally, the one you cited).

 

[NoNukes]

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

-- John Stuart Mill


Let me guess...Howard Zinn fan, huh?

Not fighting in the Military does not mean that you have no cause that you'd fight for.

In my experience, military-haters are pussies.

In my experience, men who call other men pussies are scared little guys who are afraid that they are pussies.