Putin Declares War on the Ukraine

[Rogue AI]

Woke lunacy? I am merely suggesting everything short of an actual invasion by the west, which none of us want.

You have any better ideas?

You suggest kicking Russia out of the UN and silencing any possible Chinese dissent. That's about as woke as it gets.

My idea, let Europe handle the problems in their yard, we have enough problems in our own.

 

[MisterBeale]

Their veto would be easily seen as an attempt to deadlock the council. Everyone else in the council would know that China is Russia's ally and the reason for the veto.

Essentially why this resolution was adopted.

. . . I don't. . . . think. . . you really understand. . .


. . . what is really. . . going on here Templar. There are issues that are far deeper than just an invasion. This is just a symptom of something far, far more serious.

When the US bombed Libya? What did Russia and China do? When the US invaded Iraq, what did Russia & China do? When the US invaded Afghanistan, what did Russia and China do?

You really need to pay attention to what the hell is going on in the world, and stop with your double standards before it gets all of us killed.

It is, and never was, about Ukraine to begin with.

America’s real adversaries are its European and other allies

The U.S. aim is to keep them from trading with China and Russia

www.unz.com

America’s real adversaries are its European and other allies: The U.S. aim is to keep them from trading with China and Russia | The Vineyard of the Saker

A bird's eye view of the vineyard

thesaker.is

The Crisis in Ukraine is not about Ukraine. It's about Germany

“The primordial interest of the United States, over which for centuries we have fought wars-- the First, the Second and Cold Wars-- has been the relationship between Germany and Russia, because united there, they’re the only force that could threaten us. And to make sure that that doesn’t...

www.unz.com

The Crisis in Ukraine Is Not About Ukraine. It's About Germany

“The primordial interest of the United States, over which for centuries we have fought wars– the First, the Second and Cold Wars– has been the...

www.ronpaulinstitute.org

Not just the pipeline, but that is an good symbol, it is a concrete example of what is coming, for everything else.

It is the total picture. Currency, food (through fertilizers,) banking & investments, a percentage of GDP toward defense? . . . everything.

". . . What worries American diplomats is that Germany, other NATO nations and countries along the Belt and Road route understand the gains that can be made by opening up peaceful trade and investment. If there is no Russian or Chinese plan to invade or bomb them, what is the need for NATO? What is the need for such heavy purchases of U.S. military hardware by America’s affluent allies? And if there is no inherently adversarial relationship, why do foreign countries need to sacrifice their own trade and financial interests by relying exclusively on U.S. exporters and investors?

These are the concerns that have prompted French President Macron to call forth the ghost of Charles de Gaulle and urge Europe to turn away from what he calls NATO’s “brain-dead” Cold War and break with the pro-U.S. trade arrangements that are imposing rising costs on Europe while denying it potential gains from trade with Eurasia. Even Germany is balking at demands that it freeze by this coming March by going without Russian gas.

Instead of a real military threat from Russia and China, the problem for American strategists is the absence of such a threat. All countries have come to realize that the world has reached a point at which no industrial economy has the manpower and political ability to mobilize a standing army of the size that would be needed to invade or even wage a major battle with a significant adversary. That political cost makes it uneconomic for Russia to retaliate against NATO adventurism prodding at its western border trying to incite a military response. It’s just not worth taking over Ukraine.

America’s rising pressure on its allies threatens to drive them out of the U.S. orbit. For over 75 years they had little practical alternative to U.S. hegemony. But that is now changing. America no longer has the monetary power and seemingly chronic trade and balance-of-payments surplus that enabled it to draw up the world’s trade and investment rules in 1944-45. The threat to U.S. dominance is that China, Russia and Mackinder’s Eurasian World Island heartland are offering better trade and investment opportunities than are available from the United States with its increasingly desperate demand for sacrifices from its NATO and other allies.

The most glaring example is the U.S. drive to block Germany from authorizing the Nord Stream 2 pipeline to obtain Russian gas for the coming cold weather. Angela Merkel agreed with Donald Trump to spend $1 billion building a new LNG port to become more dependent on highly priced U.S. LNG. (The plan was cancelled after the U.S. and German elections changed both leaders.) But Germany has no other way of heating many of its houses and office buildings (or supplying its fertilizer companies) than with Russian gas.. . . "

 

[TemplarKormac]

You suggest kicking Russia out of the UN and silencing any possible Chinese dissent. That's about as woke as it gets.

My idea, let Europe handle the problems in their yard, we have enough problems in our own.

Call it whatever you like.

It's a preemptive measure. Let China veto, then call the countries into session under 377 to override it. China won't be silenced, they will be overruled. Once China states its reasons for the veto, the rest is easy.

Kicking Russia out over a blatant violation of another nation's sovereignty, China for intentionally deadlocking the council's ability to function in a time of crisis in the Eastern Hemisphere. If China deadlocks the council, then it is effectively standing in the way of Europe "handling the problems in their own yard." The US would only have to invoke this resolution to stop them.

Not woke. Not even slightly.

 

[TemplarKormac]

. . . I don't. . . . think. . . you really understand. . .


. . . what is really. . . going on here Templar. There are issues that are far deeper than just an invasion. This is just a symptom of something far, far more serious.

When the US bombed Libya? What did Russia and China do? When the US invaded Iraq, what did Russia & China do? When the US invaded Afghanistan, what did Russia and China do?

You really need to pay attention to what the hell is going on in the world, and stop with your double standards before it gets all of us killed.

It is, and never was, about Ukraine to begin with.

America’s real adversaries are its European and other allies

The U.S. aim is to keep them from trading with China and Russia

www.unz.com

America’s real adversaries are its European and other allies: The U.S. aim is to keep them from trading with China and Russia | The Vineyard of the Saker

A bird's eye view of the vineyard

thesaker.is

The Crisis in Ukraine is not about Ukraine. It's about Germany

“The primordial interest of the United States, over which for centuries we have fought wars-- the First, the Second and Cold Wars-- has been the relationship between Germany and Russia, because united there, they’re the only force that could threaten us. And to make sure that that doesn’t...

www.unz.com

The Crisis in Ukraine Is Not About Ukraine. It's About Germany

“The primordial interest of the United States, over which for centuries we have fought wars– the First, the Second and Cold Wars– has been the...

www.ronpaulinstitute.org

Not just the pipeline, but that is an good symbol, it is a concrete example of what is coming, for everything else.

It is the total picture. Currency, food (through fertilizers,) banking & investments, a percentage of GDP toward defense? . . . everything.

". . . What worries American diplomats is that Germany, other NATO nations and countries along the Belt and Road route understand the gains that can be made by opening up peaceful trade and investment. If there is no Russian or Chinese plan to invade or bomb them, what is the need for NATO? What is the need for such heavy purchases of U.S. military hardware by America’s affluent allies? And if there is no inherently adversarial relationship, why do foreign countries need to sacrifice their own trade and financial interests by relying exclusively on U.S. exporters and investors?

These are the concerns that have prompted French President Macron to call forth the ghost of Charles de Gaulle and urge Europe to turn away from what he calls NATO’s “brain-dead” Cold War and break with the pro-U.S. trade arrangements that are imposing rising costs on Europe while denying it potential gains from trade with Eurasia. Even Germany is balking at demands that it freeze by this coming March by going without Russian gas.

Instead of a real military threat from Russia and China, the problem for American strategists is the absence of such a threat. All countries have come to realize that the world has reached a point at which no industrial economy has the manpower and political ability to mobilize a standing army of the size that would be needed to invade or even wage a major battle with a significant adversary. That political cost makes it uneconomic for Russia to retaliate against NATO adventurism prodding at its western border trying to incite a military response. It’s just not worth taking over Ukraine.

America’s rising pressure on its allies threatens to drive them out of the U.S. orbit. For over 75 years they had little practical alternative to U.S. hegemony. But that is now changing. America no longer has the monetary power and seemingly chronic trade and balance-of-payments surplus that enabled it to draw up the world’s trade and investment rules in 1944-45. The threat to U.S. dominance is that China, Russia and Mackinder’s Eurasian World Island heartland are offering better trade and investment opportunities than are available from the United States with its increasingly desperate demand for sacrifices from its NATO and other allies.

The most glaring example is the U.S. drive to block Germany from authorizing the Nord Stream 2 pipeline to obtain Russian gas for the coming cold weather. Angela Merkel agreed with Donald Trump to spend $1 billion building a new LNG port to become more dependent on highly priced U.S. LNG. (The plan was cancelled after the U.S. and German elections changed both leaders.) But Germany has no other way of heating many of its houses and office buildings (or supplying its fertilizer companies) than with Russian gas.. . . "

Spare me the whataboutisms.

 

[Rambunctious]

 

[Rogue AI]

Call it whatever you like.

It's a preemptive measure. Let China veto, then call the countries into session under 377 to override it. China won't be silenced, they will be overruled. Once China states its reasons for the veto, the rest is easy.

Kicking Russia out over a blatant violation of another nation's sovereignty, China for intentionally deadlocking the council's ability to function in a time of crisis in the Eastern Hemisphere. If China deadlocks the council, then it is effectively standing in the way of Europe "handling the problems in their own yard." The US would only have to invoke this resolution to stop them.

Not woke. Not even slightly.

That's woke, and whiny to boot. How sad.

 

[TemplarKormac]

You really need to pay attention to what the hell is going on in the world, and stop with your double standards before it gets all of us killed.

Russia in its current state is a product of Western incompetence. It should be the west's responsibility to stop them, if not through invasion, punitive measures available under the UN charter and pertinent resolutions. We made the mess, we clean it up.

And yes, I am paying attention, but this does not absolve China, Russia, or Belarus from their complicity.

So I would like to return your sentiment. You haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about.

 

[TemplarKormac]

That's woke, and whiny to boot. How sad.

Think what you like, if you're capable.

I cannot speak for your wholesale ignorance of the threats China and Russia pose to the rest of the world, however. The UN is a peacekeeping body, Russia and China will intentionally pose significant obstacles to its designed purpose by vetoing any actions directed toward them, unless they are ejected and circumvented, respectively.

Do you want the UN to actually do its job? Start with Russia and China. Remove them from the equation. The UN, and thereby European nations, cannot deal with their own problems while Russia and China continually act as obstructions to it undertaking meaningful actions to help Ukraine.

And calling it "woke" is a cop-out. If that is all you can muster, please, stop trying.

 

[iceberg]

. . . I don't. . . . think. . . you really understand. . .


. . . what is really. . . going on here Templar. There are issues that are far deeper than just an invasion. This is just a symptom of something far, far more serious.

When the US bombed Libya? What did Russia and China do? When the US invaded Iraq, what did Russia & China do? When the US invaded Afghanistan, what did Russia and China do?

You really need to pay attention to what the hell is going on in the world, and stop with your double standards before it gets all of us killed.

It is, and never was, about Ukraine to begin with.

America’s real adversaries are its European and other allies

The U.S. aim is to keep them from trading with China and Russia

www.unz.com

America’s real adversaries are its European and other allies: The U.S. aim is to keep them from trading with China and Russia | The Vineyard of the Saker

A bird's eye view of the vineyard

thesaker.is

The Crisis in Ukraine is not about Ukraine. It's about Germany

“The primordial interest of the United States, over which for centuries we have fought wars-- the First, the Second and Cold Wars-- has been the relationship between Germany and Russia, because united there, they’re the only force that could threaten us. And to make sure that that doesn’t...

www.unz.com

The Crisis in Ukraine Is Not About Ukraine. It's About Germany

“The primordial interest of the United States, over which for centuries we have fought wars– the First, the Second and Cold Wars– has been the...

www.ronpaulinstitute.org

Not just the pipeline, but that is an good symbol, it is a concrete example of what is coming, for everything else.

It is the total picture. Currency, food (through fertilizers,) banking & investments, a percentage of GDP toward defense? . . . everything.

". . . What worries American diplomats is that Germany, other NATO nations and countries along the Belt and Road route understand the gains that can be made by opening up peaceful trade and investment. If there is no Russian or Chinese plan to invade or bomb them, what is the need for NATO? What is the need for such heavy purchases of U.S. military hardware by America’s affluent allies? And if there is no inherently adversarial relationship, why do foreign countries need to sacrifice their own trade and financial interests by relying exclusively on U.S. exporters and investors?

These are the concerns that have prompted French President Macron to call forth the ghost of Charles de Gaulle and urge Europe to turn away from what he calls NATO’s “brain-dead” Cold War and break with the pro-U.S. trade arrangements that are imposing rising costs on Europe while denying it potential gains from trade with Eurasia. Even Germany is balking at demands that it freeze by this coming March by going without Russian gas.

Instead of a real military threat from Russia and China, the problem for American strategists is the absence of such a threat. All countries have come to realize that the world has reached a point at which no industrial economy has the manpower and political ability to mobilize a standing army of the size that would be needed to invade or even wage a major battle with a significant adversary. That political cost makes it uneconomic for Russia to retaliate against NATO adventurism prodding at its western border trying to incite a military response. It’s just not worth taking over Ukraine.

America’s rising pressure on its allies threatens to drive them out of the U.S. orbit. For over 75 years they had little practical alternative to U.S. hegemony. But that is now changing. America no longer has the monetary power and seemingly chronic trade and balance-of-payments surplus that enabled it to draw up the world’s trade and investment rules in 1944-45. The threat to U.S. dominance is that China, Russia and Mackinder’s Eurasian World Island heartland are offering better trade and investment opportunities than are available from the United States with its increasingly desperate demand for sacrifices from its NATO and other allies.

The most glaring example is the U.S. drive to block Germany from authorizing the Nord Stream 2 pipeline to obtain Russian gas for the coming cold weather. Angela Merkel agreed with Donald Trump to spend $1 billion building a new LNG port to become more dependent on highly priced U.S. LNG. (The plan was cancelled after the U.S. and German elections changed both leaders.) But Germany has no other way of heating many of its houses and office buildings (or supplying its fertilizer companies) than with Russian gas.. . . "

great read. helped me better understand.

 

[Rogue AI]

Think what you like, if you're capable.

I cannot speak for your wholesale ignorance of the threats China and Russia pose to the rest of the world, however. The UN is a peacekeeping body, Russia and China will intentionally pose significant obstacles to its designed purpose by vetoing any actions directed toward them, unless they are ejected and circumvented, respectively.

You want the UN to actually do its job? Start with Russia and China.

Sorry, your double standards undermine any intellectual credit I may have falsely attributed to you. Woke policies won't deter Russia or China. Kicking them out of the UN or silencing them will make things worse. How foolish and irrational you folks get when things don't go exactly as you like.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Sorry, your double standards undermine any intellectual credit I may have falsely attributed to you.

So, we continually allow Russia and China to obstruct any UN (and ergo European) attempt to help Ukraine? Okay, if that undermines my intellectual credit, which I did not seek from you, so be it. I make my own intellectual capital, I don't need "credit" from myopic people such as yourself.

Their very existence as founding members of the UN, while good-natured at the founding, are now acting as impediments to its function now.

You want Europe to deal with their problems, remove the obstacles.

Wokeness be damned. Your protestations be damned.

 

[MisterBeale]

MisterBeale

I don't see what you think is so funny. Perhaps you would like to let me in on the joke?

It is your assumption that the information that you are getting, that the US is nothing but in the right, that the UN would necessarily side with the US and her allies, that the reason that Russia gave for being forced to invade? Weren't legit. When I was young, I remember that Ukraine used to be part of the USSR, they had nuke tech. Hell, when I was in High School,

I don't assume that the government and billionaire controlled information on my side is the truth, nor do I assume that the corrupt government of Russia is necessarily telling the truth.

There are no good guys, and there are no bad guys.

But the way you are posting? You post like all that bullshit that has been coming out of the CFR, the RAND corp and Atlantic Council directly to CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC and FOX has any resemblance for truth.

Hell, we wouldn't be in ANY of this shitty position if Obama and Victoria Nuland hadn't started it all with a Neo-Nazi backed Coup back in 2014!

. .. so what the hell are you doing taking the side of LITERAL NAZIS!

I mean, don't get me wrong, I feel for the people of Ukraine . . . but c'mon? When I was growing up? This guy, (A Ukrainian,) was the leader of the Soviet Union. . . And I suffered for them, all growing up, like, literal PTSD type nightmare shit. . .

Leonid Brezhnev
Леонид Брежнев

Leonid Brezhnev - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

. . . and now, the American Elite, the ruling classes, want ME to suffer for Ukraine again?

THAT? Is some serious bullshit.

 

[TemplarKormac]

How foolish and irrational you folks get when things don't go exactly as you like.

What's more 'woke' then? Preserving nonexistent amity between the west and those two by keeping Russia in the council and letting China obstruct with their veto? Or hurting their feelings by taking them both out of the equation by various non-lethal methods?

 

[Colin norris]

It is your assumption that the information that you are getting, that the US is nothing but in the right, that the UN would necessarily side with the US and her allies, that the reason that Russia gave for being forced to invade? Weren't legit. When I was young, I remember that Ukraine used to be part of the USSR, they had nuke tech. Hell, when I was in High School,

I don't assume that the government and billionaire controlled information on my side is the truth, nor do I assume that the corrupt government of Russia is necessarily telling the truth.

There are no good guys, and there are no bad guys.

But the way you are posting? You post like all that bullshit that has been coming out of the CFR, the RAND corp and Atlantic Council directly to CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC and FOX has any resemblance for truth.

Hell, we wouldn't be in ANY of this shitty position if Obama and Victoria Nuland hadn't started it all with a Neo-Nazi backed Coup back in 2014!

. .. so what the hell are you doing taking the side of LITERAL NAZIS!

I mean, don't get me wrong, I feel for the people of Ukraine . . . but c'mon? When I was growing up? This guy, (A Ukrainian,) was the leader of the Soviet Union. . . And I suffered for them, all growing up, like, literal PTSD type nightmare shit. . .

Leonid Brezhnev
Леонид Брежнев

Leonid Brezhnev - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

. . . and now, the American Elite, the ruling classes, want ME to suffer for Ukraine again?

THAT? Is some serious bullshit.

So it's Obama's fault now?
You really are fucked in the head.

 

[TemplarKormac]

It is your assumption that the information that you are getting, that the US is nothing but in the right

I never made that claim. The garbage foreign policy enacted by the US over the past three decades contributed to this mess. The best we can do is clean it up. Via the methods I suggested. If we don't want our blood and treasure getting involved over there, this would be my solution. I'm not so arrogant as to expect any of that to happen. This is a discussion board, not the UN feedback department.

 

[MisterBeale]

Spare me the whataboutisms.

So. . . what you are saying is, it is alright if WE have reasons to initiate war, but not if others do it?

 

[TemplarKormac]

It is your assumption that the information that you are getting, that the US is nothing but in the right, that the UN would necessarily side with the US and her allies, that the reason that Russia gave for being forced to invade? Weren't legit. When I was young, I remember that Ukraine used to be part of the USSR, they had nuke tech. Hell, when I was in High School,

I don't assume that the government and billionaire controlled information on my side is the truth, nor do I assume that the corrupt government of Russia is necessarily telling the truth.

There are no good guys, and there are no bad guys.

But the way you are posting? You post like all that bullshit that has been coming out of the CFR, the RAND corp and Atlantic Council directly to CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC and FOX has any resemblance for truth.

Hell, we wouldn't be in ANY of this shitty position if Obama and Victoria Nuland hadn't started it all with a Neo-Nazi backed Coup back in 2014!

. .. so what the hell are you doing taking the side of LITERAL NAZIS!

I mean, don't get me wrong, I feel for the people of Ukraine . . . but c'mon? When I was growing up? This guy, (A Ukrainian,) was the leader of the Soviet Union. . . And I suffered for them, all growing up, like, literal PTSD type nightmare shit. . .

Leonid Brezhnev
Леонид Брежнев

Leonid Brezhnev - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

. . . and now, the American Elite, the ruling classes, want ME to suffer for Ukraine again?

THAT? Is some serious bullshit.

Ad hominem, the argument of the weak.

People like you and Rogue talk a big game when it involves not sending our troops to war, but won't consider any methods by which we can easily employ to keep that from happening.

THAT'S the bullshit. If you are unwilling to do what it takes via non-lethal, then you are leaving the option for putting troops on the ground to deter any action as the only option. Meaning you would be the ones exercising the double standards (Rogue AI).

I will accept no lectures from either of you on the subject. You have both proven you are not committed to keeping our troops out of that conflict.

I am.

End of discussion.

 

[Ringo]

.
The Russian Armed Forces are not carrying out any missile, aviation or artillery strikes on Ukrainian cities, the Defense Ministry said today. Military infrastructure, air defense facilities, military airfields, aviation of the Armed Forces of Ukraine are being put out of action by high-precision means of destruction, the ministry stressed.

The air defense means of the Ukrainian army have been suppressed, and the infrastructure of the AFU air bases has been disabled, the Russian Ministry of Defense reported.
The Defense Ministry also stated that the servicemen of the border guard service of Ukraine do not offer any resistance to Russian units.

The artillery of the Donetsk People's Republic struck the headquarters of the so-called operation of the joint forces of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the city of Chas Yar. This is reported by the Telegram channel "Welders", the correspondent of "Donbass Today" reports.

"The headquarters, which houses the entire command of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, which manages the Ukrainian military, is burning well. If the losses are confirmed, we can assume that the Ukrainian General Staff has lost control of its troops," the report says.

 

[TemplarKormac]

So. . . what you are saying is, it is alright if WE have reasons to initiate war, but not if others do it?

Who said I wanted war? The second time I've asked.

I want this to be absolved through non-lethal means. But we can't very well do that with two countries colluding to get in the way, can we?

 

[MisterBeale]

I never made that claim. The garbage foreign policy enacted by the US over the past three decades contributed to this mess. The best we can do is clean it up. Via the methods I suggested. If we don't want our blood and treasure getting involved over there, this would be my solution. I'm not so arrogant as to expect any of that to happen. This is a discussion board, not the UN feedback department.

The methods you suggested aren't going to work, is all I am telling you. . because, in your own words, you admitted defeat, i.e.

Spare me the whataboutisms.

When it goes to an arbitration for the use of that proposal at the UN you suggested? That is precisely what the Russians and Chinese will tell the community of nations that the US and its allies have been acting like. . . pirates, imperialists, mercantilists . . . on the international stage.

I seriously doubt that any collective action will be sought or agreed upon against Russia or China for standing up to NATO. . .

You can't have a trial with only one set of facts. That isn't how it is conducted, sorry you don't want to here THE WHOLE STORY.

There are always two sides to a situation, and if there is no compromise? THAT is when war happens.