Debate Now Prove your case! Is Homosexuality genetic or a choice?

I have already told you that homosexual male's sperm is the same as heterosexual male sperm and it can impregnate.

I didn't deny that. But here is a rhetorical question for you:

What good is his sperm if he's partnered with another man? He can donate to sperm bank sure, but the issue remains, the sperm is essentially useless as it pertains to a gay man and his partner.

Instead of telling people that they need to vacate the thread when you haven't provided any links proving the opposite, maybe you need to vacate the thread.

Actually not. Instead of arguing from emotion (argumentum ad passiones), which is a violation of the rules in this thread, you can make your own cogent arguments supported with facts and evidence. So far, you have offered nothing but anecdotal arguments and personal opinions. I'm perfectly fine where I am. If you can't refrain from doing such, there is a back button on your web browser for a reason.

I will not engage you in any further conversation.
 
It doesn't because gay men don't screw women.
Do you have a link to back you up? I have known of homosexual men that have married heterosexual women and had children only for the woman to find out later and divorce them. You are so out of touch.


Artificial insemination is relatively new. There would have been no gays left to breed more

Just post some links.....we don't need baseless opinions.
What you have known is homosexual men who married and had children while they were heterosexual, which proves that homosexuality is choice/environmental rather than genetic.
One's chromosomes don't alter themselves randomly throughout life.
Homosexuals have married straight in an effort to avoid the stigma that surrounds homosexuality. Usually the marriages don't last, which just proves that they can't change. There is no proof that they were once heterosexual.


Post links? Why should that even enter your mind? Gay men have sex with men, not women. Exceptions? Yes, of course, but the chances of a genetically homosexual male having a child by a genetically lesbian female are so slim that the gene would be bred out of the species in under 10 generations.

Gay men many times marry straight women while having sex with other gay men. I never said that gay men have children with lesbians. But your claim that they are not able to reproduce is erroneous, because they can. You, too need to post some links to back up your claim that they can't?

I married a gay man - Health - Behavior NBC News

Gay Straight Marriage Articles by Bonnie Kaye

14 Famous Gay Men Who Were Once Married to Women
 
If they had children, they were heterosexual if only for a short period. If they can choose to be hetero or were in fact, hetero, it follows that homosexuality is a choice or a conditioned reaction to external stimulus.

He may be gay because of you????
 
I have already told you that homosexual male's sperm is the same as heterosexual male sperm and it can impregnate.

I didn't deny that. But here is a rhetorical question for you:

What good is his sperm if he's partnered with another man? He can donate to sperm bank sure, but the issue remains, the sperm is essentially useless as it pertains to a gay man and his partner.
I don't care whether his sperm is good or not while partnered with another man. The whole argument was about whether or not they can reproduce. To claim that they can't is an erroneous statement.

Instead of telling people that they need to vacate the thread when you haven't provided any links proving the opposite, maybe you need to vacate the thread.

Actually not. Instead of arguing from emotion (argumentum ad passiones), which is a violation of the rules in this thread, you can make your own cogent arguments supported with facts and evidence. So far, you have offered nothing but anecdotal arguments and personal opinions. I'm perfectly fine where I am. If you can't refrain from doing such, there is a back button on your web browser for a reason.
On what are you basing that I am arguing from emotion? The fact that I have proven you wrong? Provide a link that proves that homosexuals cannot reproduce and that Lesbians cannot get pregnant. That is all I'm asking, because I have already provided links to show you that they can, and they have.

I will not engage you in any further conversation.
Well of course you won't because you know I have proven you wrong. There is hardly anything else you can say.
 
If they had children, they were heterosexual if only for a short period. If they can choose to be hetero or were in fact, hetero, it follows that homosexuality is a choice or a conditioned reaction to external stimulus.
You have no proof that they were heterosexual at any time. They don't choose to be hetero, they pretend to be to keep from being demeaned, hated, ostracized by people that don't know any better.

He may be gay because of you????
What is that supposed to mean? You need to read the rules of the OP, if you are trying to be insulting, the OP should tell you that it is not allowed. Of course, if you can't prove your point, perhaps that is your only recourse.
 
However, you may presume it implies a problem due to the historical stigmatism of homosexuality.

Preposterous. Why would I use "historical stigmatism" to motivate my argument?
You shouldn't. The "you" in the sentence was referring to the poster I was responding too. I was trying to point out why he may bais when he said that you question (the question posed by your op) presumes a problem.
 
Last edited:
How so? What medical advances?

Surrogate birthing, In Vitro Fertilization. Without those two things, the homosexual genotype would be excised from the species through the evolutionary process


Not true because straights produce gays.


This idea that gays can't or don't reproduce is a bizarre line of discussion. Why would anyone think this?
 
Last edited:
Gays have always had the same rights as anyone else, period. But since they can't reproduce, the right to get married is shallow and superficial.
Why can't gays reproduce. Please provide your evidence that gay women can't get pregnant and that gay men can't get women pregnant.

Because without surrogacy or IVF, they would simply become extinct due to the lack of reproductive capability. It's written in all of nature.
I'm not sure why this is so complicated for you two. Gay man walks up to woman, and says wanna have sex? I'd like to have a child. Woman says yes. They have a baby together about 9months later. Gay man is still gay but now has a child. There is NO difference between how gay men and women have babies and how strait men and women have babies. It's the same steps, with the same outcome.
 
Last edited:
If they had children, they were heterosexual if only for a short period. If they can choose to be hetero or were in fact, hetero, it follows that homosexuality is a choice or a conditioned reaction to external stimulus.

He may be gay because of you????

It is fallacious to assume that having intercourse with the opposite gender changes the orientation of sexual attraction.

Incarcerated criminals don't become gay just because they have no access to the opposite gender behind bars.
 
The very question presumes there's a problem, that it's not natural.

It isn't, in the sense it is a flaw in the human genome. Natural as it exists in the genome yes, but unnatural in the sense that it is not a normal occurrence in the species. So no, it isn't natural.

Yet, as I've proven it's natural.

Sigh, I said I was going to stay neutral, but as with all attempts at neutrality, one winds up taking a side. Just because your argument went unchallenged for a period of time does not constitute proof of anything. It is an argument of false declaration at this juncture.

Thus, to your question the origin of homosexuality is clearly based on human / animal desires for "sex, courtship, affection, pair bonding, or parenting." Yeah that last one sounds odd, note: it was not my list.

In fact, the assertion "animals do it too" is deceptive. Animals act on instinct, not emotion. Therefore they have no perception of homosexuality as humans do. We are in fact, as you said, intelligent and unique. I find the idea of attributing human behavior to animals to be a flawed line of reasoning, as such:

"Although homosexual behavior is very common in the animal world (notice how he stresses behavior), it seems to be very uncommon that individual animals have a long-lasting predisposition to engage in such behavior to the exclusion of heterosexual activities. Thus, a homosexual orientation, if one can speak of such thing in animals, seems to be a rarity."

-LeVay, Simon (1996). Queer Science: The Use and Abuse of Research into Homosexuality. Cambridge, Massachusetts: MIT Press. p. 207.

"Properly speaking, homosexuality does not exist among animals.... For reasons of survival, the reproductive instinct among animals is always directed towards an individual of the opposite sex. Therefore, an animal can never be homosexual as such. Nevertheless, the interaction of other instincts (particularly dominance) can result in behavior that appears to be homosexual. Such behavior cannot be equated with an animal homosexuality. All it means is that animal sexual behavior encompasses aspects beyond that of reproduction."

Dr. Antonio Pardo, "Aspectos medicos de la homosexualidad," Nuestro Tiempo, Jul.-Aug. 1995, pp. 82-89.

Animal species akin to mammalia (excluding humans, which are intelligent mammals) have an overwhelming instinct to propagate their species. They don't have enough intelligence to override that instinct. We do. There's human nature and animal nature. Neither can be equated with the other.

In nature "there is documented evidence of homosexual behavior of one or more of the following kinds: sex, courtship, affection, pair bonding, or parenting." (Bruce Bagemihl's 1999 book Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity. )

Speaking of Bruce Bagemihl: in that very same book, he made this assertion on page 262:

"Ultimately, the synthesis of scientific views represented by Biological Exuberance brings us full circle--back to the way of looking at the world that is in accordance with some of the most ancient indigenous conceptions of animal (and human) sexual and gender variability. This perspective dissolves binary oppositions....Biological Exuberance is...a worldview that is at once primordial and futuristic, in which gender is kaleidoscopic, sexualities are multiple, and the categories of male and female are fluid and transmutable."

Ibid, p. 262

That has no scientific backing whilst resorting to a supernatural, spiritual basis to anchor his assertion. He hinges this part of his argument solely on the mythical conceptions of ancient Indian and aboriginal peoples. I take his argument with a grain of salt, and rightly so. It is an androgynous myth. Mythology is not science.

Then, he shows his dissatisfaction with empirical science and suggests that the aboriginal cultural perspective is superior. That immediately discredits any perspective he has on the subject:

"Western science has a lot to learn from aboriginal cultures about systems of gender and sexuality..."

Ibid, p. 5

Once again, we are discussing empirical science, not mythology.

Another instance of this conflationary argument comes here:

"To Western science, homosexuality (both animal and human) is an anomaly, an unexpected behavior that above all requires some sort of "explanation" or "cause" or "rationale." In contrast, to many indigenous cultures around the world, homosexuality and transgender are a routine and expected occurrence in both the human and animal worlds.."

Ibid, p. 215

"Most Native American tribes formally recognize--and honor--human homosexuality and transgender in the role of the 'two-spirit' person (sometimes formerly known as berdache). The 'two-spirit' is a sacred man or woman who mixes gender categories by wearing clothes of opposite or both sexes .... And often engaging in same -sex relations. ... In many Native American cultures, certain animals are also symbolically associated with two-spiritedness, often in the form of creation myths and origin legends relating to the first or "supernatural" two-spirit(s)....A Zuni creation story relates how the first two spirits--creatures that were neither male nor female, yet both at the same time--were the twelve offspring of a mythical brother-sister pair. Some of these creatures were human, but one was a bat and another an old buck Deer."

Ibid, p. 216

He is using the religious beliefs of aboriginal cultures to define homosexual behavior in animals, in another attempt to equate it with human behavior. That is not a scientific argument. I am told by many people that in some cases science and religious belief are incompatible, in this case I agree. With all due respect, RKM, this source is dubious at best.

I will contend that human behavior is completely dissimilar to the instinctual behavior of other mammals. I am also calling you on the grounds you based your argument on an unreliable source.

You say gayness is a flaw in the human genome. Please provide support. Your opinion is not evidence.

Animals don't act on emotion? Please provide support for this irrational statement.

First you say that you "find the idea of attributing human behavior to animals to be a flawed line of reasoning." Then you point to evidence that supports said reasoning. You appear to have been confused by what "it seems to be very uncommon that individual animals have a long-lasting predisposition to engage in such behavior to the exclusion of heterosexual activities. Thus, a homosexual orientation, if one can speak of such thing in animals, seems to be a rarity," (LeVay) actually means.

IOW your biased opinion that gayness is a flaw, leads you to find opinions in facts that are not supported.
What the facts are in the quote from LeVay is that in the animal kingdom gay acts are common among heterosexual animals, and exclusively homosexual animals are a "rarity" in the animal kingdom.

Then to Pardo's citation, he makes a completely unsupported statement that there are NO homosexual animals. A statement that he himself refutes by then coming up with an excuse for the homosexual behaviors clearly observed. IOW he's lying making up excuses for the behavior because he sees the behavior like you do, as flawed behavior. I have no idea why he feels the need to make up excuses for animals.

As to your citations about the editorial section of Ibid's paper. Opinions are opinions, the writer is merely pointing out sources and desires for a better world model than the current one. Which I assume is what you are doing with this OP.

If on the other hand you are not... then what is the point of this OP? To come up with an excuse for failed plan to eradicate homosexual behavior from the planet? To triple down on this centuries old crusade against gays?
 
It doesn't because gay men don't screw women. Artificial insemination is relatively new. There would have been no gays left to breed more
Incorrect. Gay men do screw women.
Figuratively, daily, but they rarely get them pregnant.
I screw daily, but I've only made my wife pregnant 6 times, 3 were early term miscarriages. I'm smart enough to do the aforementioned act without getting my wife pregnant unless I want to. My decision to stop at 3 kids is not a flaw, it's a choice.
 
How so? What medical advances?

Surrogate birthing, In Vitro Fertilization. Without those two things, the homosexual genotype would be excised from the species through the evolutionary process


Not true because straights produce gays.


This idea that gays can't or don't reproduce is a bizarre line of discussion. Why would anyone think this?
They think this because they believe gayness is a flaw in humans that can be weeded out through natural selection.
 
If they had children, they were heterosexual if only for a short period. If they can choose to be hetero or were in fact, hetero, it follows that homosexuality is a choice or a conditioned reaction to external stimulus.
You have no proof that they were heterosexual at any time. They don't choose to be hetero, they pretend to be to keep from being demeaned, hated, ostracized by people that don't know any better.

He may be gay because of you????
What is that supposed to mean? You need to read the rules of the OP, if you are trying to be insulting, the OP should tell you that it is not allowed. Of course, if you can't prove your point, perhaps that is your only recourse.
For Christ's sake! If they bred they had heterosexual sex. What the fuck is so hard to grasp?
That is supposed to mean exactly what is means.
Sorry TK. Stupid people frustrate me.
 
If they had children, they were heterosexual if only for a short period. If they can choose to be hetero or were in fact, hetero, it follows that homosexuality is a choice or a conditioned reaction to external stimulus.
You have no proof that they were heterosexual at any time. They don't choose to be hetero, they pretend to be to keep from being demeaned, hated, ostracized by people that don't know any better.

He may be gay because of you????
What is that supposed to mean? You need to read the rules of the OP, if you are trying to be insulting, the OP should tell you that it is not allowed. Of course, if you can't prove your point, perhaps that is your only recourse.
For Christ's sake! If they bred they had heterosexual sex. What the fuck is so hard to grasp?
That is supposed to mean exactly what is means.
Sorry TK. Stupid people frustrate me.
What is so hard to understand about the fact that homosexuals can and do participate in heterosexual sex for the purpose of breeding?
 
How so? What medical advances?

Surrogate birthing, In Vitro Fertilization. Without those two things, the homosexual genotype would be excised from the species through the evolutionary process
How do those things excise homosexuality?
Because, if homosexuality were genetic, it would take 2 people with the "gay" gene to produce a slim chance of a genetically gay child.
Except with TK's modern options, real, honest homosexuals cannot breed. Over time, the chances of 2 people with the gay gene mating would diminish to near zero.
IF gays do engage in heterosexual relations, their sexual orientation is a choice.
 
If they had children, they were heterosexual if only for a short period. If they can choose to be hetero or were in fact, hetero, it follows that homosexuality is a choice or a conditioned reaction to external stimulus.
You have no proof that they were heterosexual at any time. They don't choose to be hetero, they pretend to be to keep from being demeaned, hated, ostracized by people that don't know any better.

He may be gay because of you????
What is that supposed to mean? You need to read the rules of the OP, if you are trying to be insulting, the OP should tell you that it is not allowed. Of course, if you can't prove your point, perhaps that is your only recourse.
For Christ's sake! If they bred they had heterosexual sex. What the fuck is so hard to grasp?
That is supposed to mean exactly what is means.
Sorry TK. Stupid people frustrate me.
What is so hard to understand about the fact that homosexuals can and do participate in heterosexual sex for the purpose of breeding?
Very rarely, and as stated above, if they do, then their sexuality is a choice.
 
If they had children, they were heterosexual if only for a short period. If they can choose to be hetero or were in fact, hetero, it follows that homosexuality is a choice or a conditioned reaction to external stimulus.
You have no proof that they were heterosexual at any time. They don't choose to be hetero, they pretend to be to keep from being demeaned, hated, ostracized by people that don't know any better.

He may be gay because of you????
What is that supposed to mean? You need to read the rules of the OP, if you are trying to be insulting, the OP should tell you that it is not allowed. Of course, if you can't prove your point, perhaps that is your only recourse.
For Christ's sake! If they bred they had heterosexual sex. What the fuck is so hard to grasp?
That is supposed to mean exactly what is means.
Sorry TK. Stupid people frustrate me.
What is so hard to understand about the fact that homosexuals can and do participate in heterosexual sex for the purpose of breeding?
Very rarely, and as stated above, if they do, then their sexuality is a choice.
As I stated already, I've only had a few kids, I'm heterosexual. Breeding is a choice. And yes so is "sex" for pleasure.
 
By definition, hetero sex would not be pleasurable for a homosexual. If it is, then his sexual orientation is a choice.
 

New Topics

Back
Top Bottom