Politicians’ wealth - a problem many ignore unless it's on the other side.

That's it!

Find the most reasonable and logical system that works, and we already saw it work. We just need to return to those precepts.
The founding fathers didn't know what a satellite is, or the Internet, or even an airplane or electricity. Are there realities about the modern world that they couldn't have predicted or accounted for? Are there considerations that are impossible to ignore given the way the world changes? Will this continue to be the case in centuries to come?

Surely much of their wisdom and intent can be carried forward, but will it or can it always look the same as it did in a time before electricity or cars and highways?

How much of the founders’ vision can remain unchanged in a world they could never have imagined?
 
The founding fathers didn't know what a satellite is, or the Internet, or even an airplane or electricity. Are there realities about the modern world that they couldn't have predicted or accounted for? Are there considerations that are impossible to ignore given the way the world changes? Will this continue to be the case in centuries to come?

Surely much of their wisdom and intent can be carried forward, but will it or can it always look the same as it did in a time before electricity or cars and highways?

How much of the founders’ vision can remain unchanged in a world they could never have imagined?
The founders feared a great many things based on their knowledge of human nature

It has nothing to do with cell phones.

One such notion was the problem of centralized power. They recognized it's problems by studying people from their past that still rings true today. But "Progressives" scoffed at their wisdom and began to subvert all power to the Swamp to where they have all centralized power today. Now the Executive Branch can help dictate anything from what doctor you see to what light bulb you use or what is taught to your child in kindergarten. Ridiculous.

But then you get the clown show from the Left saying they don't want any kings, when it is they who have pushed for such centralized control and created this Frankenstein. But really, they all they want is their stooge in power because they are all brain dead morons.

This fear is why the Founders included in the Constitution in Article V the ability of states to amend the Constitution. If there was ever a time to use it, it is now!

The Article V movement in my mind is our best bet, even though it is a huge long shot.
 
The founders feared a great many things based on their knowledge of human nature

It has nothing to do with cell phones.

One such notion was the problem of centralized power. They recognized it's problems by studying people from their past that still rings true today. But "Progressives" scoffed at their wisdom and began to subvert all power to the Swamp to where they have all centralized power today. Now the Executive Branch can help dictate anything from what doctor you see to what light bulb you use or what is taught to your child in kindergarten. Ridiculous.

But then you get the clown show from the Left saying they don't want any kings, when it is they who have pushed for such centralized control and even more so.

This fear is why the Founders included in the Constitution in Article V the ability of states to amend the Constitution. If there was ever a time to use it, it is now!

The Article V movement in my mind is our best bet, even though it is a huge long shot.
I get that. That's why I said much of their wisdom can remain. Does the nature of technology and the world impact anything though? Are there any ramifications to consider when accepting how much the world has changed?

Does the way we implement their wisdom need to consider the modern world? Does it evolve? Not everything can remain exactly the same, can it?
 
The ability of Congress to solicit bribes is a byproduct of how much power they have.
 
I get that. That's why I said much of their wisdom can remain. Does the nature of technology and the world impact anything though? Are there any ramifications to consider when accepting how much the world has changed?

Does the way we implement their wisdom need to consider the modern world? Not everything can be exactly the same, can it?
Yes.

Technology affords the government more power over the populace than at any other time in history, especially with the use of AI.

For example, imagine if Hitler had had AI and used it to bolster his own power. Instead, he tried to micromanage everyone and everything, including the war, which is one of the main reasons it went so poorly for him.

But had he used AI instead of his idiot limited brain, what would have been the result? That is why his Generals laughingly called him the Bohemian general behind his back. He made stupid decisions that cost him quickly.

And how much more efficiently would the Holocaust have gone if he were able to track people with the technology we have today to kill more Jews?

And what of the internet as AI scans and studies your every word and movement? We have this today with cell phones as AI studies you and tries to keep you on your cell phone for as long as it can. And the propaganda is due to get much better as well, which amounts to mind control and rigging elections

The biggest ally of the common man is the inbred idiocy of his tyrant oppressor, as their regime eventually rots from within and dies due to their idiocy. But what if AI is there to prop it up indefinitely?

Yes, lots of issues.
 
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Yes.

Technology affords the government more power over the populace than at any other time in history, especially with the use of AI.

For example, imagine if Hitler had had AI and used it to bolster his own power. Instead, he tried to micromanage everyone and everything, including the war, which is one of the main reasons it went so poorly for him.

But had he used AI instead of his idiot limited brain, what would have been the result? That is why his Generals laughingly called him the Bohemian general behind his back. He made stupid decisions that cost him quickly.

And how much more efficiently would the Holocaust have gone if he were able to track people with the technology we have today to kill more Jews?

And what of the internet as AI scans and studies your every word and movement? We have this today with cell phones as AI studies you and tries to keep you on your cell phone for as long as it can. And the propaganda is due to get much better as well, which amounts to mind control and rigging elections

The biggest ally of the common man is the inbred idiocy of his tyrant oppressor, as their regime eventually rots from within and dies due to their idiocy. But what if AI is there to prop it up indefinitely?

Yes, lots of issues.
Can technology be used to amplify good and not just evil?

How do these considerations impact the original vision of our founders?
 
Can technology be used to amplify good and not just evil?

How do these considerations impact the original vision of our founders?
Of course, just like with other technology.

For example, you can use nuclear to create energy to sue productively or WMD's.

The problem lies with people with such power who have no wisdom.

Power, which is enhanced with knowledge, brings death if that person has no wisdom.

The problem is, this world scoffs at wisdom and celebrates technology and knowledge instead.

1754411308578.webp



But let's say you have the knowledge and have wisdom, and then you die.

Someone comes up behind you and you have the same problem all over again.

In a way, it's like playing Russian Roulette.
 
Of course, just like with other technology.

For example, you can use nuclear to create energy to sue productively or WMD's.

The problem lies with people with such power who have no wisdom.

Power, which is enhanced with knowledge, brings death if that person has no wisdom.

The problem is, this world scoffs at wisdom and celebrates technology and knowledge instead.

View attachment 1145319


But let's say you have the knowledge and have wisdom, and then you die.

Someone comes up behind you and you have the same problem all over again.

In a way, it's like playing Russian Roulette.
Where is the line beyond which the founding fathers lacked the ability to see due to the limitations of the time? Where do we have to figure it out for ourselves rather than relying completely on old world wisdom?

You seem to agree they were limited by the time they lived in at least somewhat. What does that mean exactly? The world is far more intricate now, and there are a lot more questions and problems.
 
Where is the line beyond which the founding fathers lacked the ability to see due to the limitations of the time? Where do we have to figure it out for ourselves rather than relying completely on old world wisdom?

You seem to agree they were limited by the time they lived in at least somewhat. What does that mean exactly? The world is far more intricate now, and there are a lot more questions and problems.
I will answer you but you probably will hate my answer. I will answer with a quote from one of the Founders, Ben Franklin

“I confess that there are several parts of this Constitution which I do not at present approve, but I am not sure I shall never approve them. For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged by better information, or fuller consideration, to change opinions even on important subjects, which I once thought right, but found to be otherwise. It is therefore that, the older I grow, the more apt I am to doubt my own judgment, and to pay more respect to the judgment of others.”

In these sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Constitution, with all its faults, if they are such; because I think a General Government necessary for us, and there is no form of government, but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered; and believe further, that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic government.”

Although not a religious man, Franklin understood the value of morality, i.e. wisdom, as well as the historical tendency of all cultures to go morally South for the winter at some point.

Moreover, the Founders understood the value of religious practice to secure such morality as John Adams had this to say about the Constitution.

John Adams: 'Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.'​

I think as religion wanes, so will our rights and freedoms, which appears to be the case.

And here is one of my quotes:

Find the perfect government and give it to a morally bankrupt society, and they destroy the said government.

Conversely, give a morally upright people a bad government, and they will help fix it.

It really is that simple.
 
I will answer you but you probably will hate my answer. I will answer with a quote from one of the Founders, Ben Franklin

“I confess that there are several parts of this Constitution which I do not at present approve, but I am not sure I shall never approve them. For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged by better information, or fuller consideration, to change opinions even on important subjects, which I once thought right, but found to be otherwise. It is therefore that, the older I grow, the more apt I am to doubt my own judgment, and to pay more respect to the judgment of others.”

In these sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Constitution, with all its faults, if they are such; because I think a General Government necessary for us, and there is no form of government, but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered; and believe further, that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic government.”

Although not a religious man, Franklin understood the value of morality, i.e. wisdom, as well as the historical tendency of all cultures to go morally South for the winter at some point.

Moreover, the Founders understood the value of religious practice to secure such morality as John Adams had this to say about the Constitution.

John Adams: 'Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.'​

I think as religion wanes, so will our rights and freedoms, which appears to be the case.

And here is one of my quotes:

Find the perfect government and give it to a morally bankrupt society, and they destroy the said government.

Conversely, give a morally upright people a bad government, and they will help fix it.

It really is that simple.
You think God is necessary. I don't hate that. It doesn't leave a lot of room for conversation though.
 
You think God is necessary. I don't hate that. It doesn't leave a lot of room for conversation though.
Yes, but I am not talking about a man controlled theocracy.

However, leaving out the God of the universe in everything you do and say and think can be problematic to say the least.

It is noteworthy that God gives his version of government in the Bible. Essentially, you had judges to settle disputes between the Hebrew people, that was it. However, the people began to clamor for a king, which God then warned them of all the abuses that would befall them if they persisted in the request, but the persisted anyway. God then gave them Saul. It was only 2 kings later that the nation split in two and spiraled the drain until both the Southern and Northern kingdoms were later invaded and gone forever.

The account was in 1 Samuel 8, and was used in the pamphlet "Common Sense" that helped spark revolution fever in America to challenge the King of England's power. It was successful because people back then still revered the Bible instead of seeing it as a silly book of myths that is no applicable to our lives today because we have cell phones and they didn't.
 
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Yes, but I am not talking about a man controlled theocracy.

However, leaving out the God of the universe in everything you do and say and think can be problematic to say the least.

It is noteworthy that God gives his version of government in the Bible. Essentially, you had judges to settle disputes between the Hebrew people, that was it. However, the people began to clamor for a king, which God then warned them of all the abuses that would befall them if they persisted in the request, but the persisted anyway. God then gave them Saul. It was only 2 kings later that the nation split in two and spiraled the drain until both the Southern and Northern kingdoms were later invaded and gone forever.

The account was in 1 Samuel 8, and was used in the pamphlet "Common Sense" that helped spark revolution fever in America to challenge the King of England's power. It was successful because people back then still revered the Bible instead of seeing it as a silly book of myths that is no applicable to our lives today because we have cell phones and they didn't.
Even with God there will be things we have to account for and figure out on our own, no?
 
Even with God there will be things we have to account for and figure out on our own, no?
Of course.

But with all of society being willing to regulate their own moral behavior the only alternative to maintain a civil society if for the state is to build a fence around them and hire a warden to govern them.

Oddly enough, prison is the ultimate Left-wing utopia as everything is "free", there are no guns, housing is evenly distributed without any of them having a better jail cell than the others, and every day is gay pride day.
 
Of course.

But with all of society being willing to regulate their own moral behavior the only alternative to maintain a civil society if for the state is to build a fence around them and hire a warden to govern them.

Oddly enough, prison is the ultimate Left-wing utopia as everything is "free", there are no guns, housing is evenly distributed without any of them having a better jail cell than the others, and every day is gay pride day.
Can one regulate their moral behavior without God?
 
Can one regulate their moral behavior without God?
First of all, everyone has morals. Even Hitler had morals. For example, Hitler was an avid vegetarian because he loved animals, and the Nazi party passed the most progressive laws to date to protect animals for such things as scientific experimentation. The Nazi party was also advocates of the environment as they created the first National parks in Europe, were the first to put animals and plants on endangered species list to protect them and were horrified at the prospect of talk about putting a damn on the Rhine due to the possible environmental consequences.

They also adopted the view that the human race could be genetically improved, which would be for the general "good" of society.

For example, Charles Darwin wrote this:

“With savages, the weak in body or mind are soon eliminated; and those that survive commonly exhibit a vigorous state of health. We civilised men, on the other hand, do our utmost to check the process of elimination; we build asylums for the imbecile, the maimed, and the sick; we institute poor-laws; and our medical men exert their utmost skill to save the life of every one to the last moment. There is reason to believe that vaccination has preserved thousands, who from a weak constitution would formerly have succumbed to small-pox. Thus the weak members of civilised societies propagate their kind. No one who has attended to the breeding of domestic animals will doubt that this must be highly injurious to the race of man. It is surprising how soon a want of care, or care wrongly directed, leads to the degeneration of a domestic race; but excepting in the case of man himself, hardly any one is so ignorant as to allow his worst animals to breed.

The aid which we feel impelled to give to the helpless is mainly an incidental result of the instinct of sympathy, which was originally acquired as part of the social instincts, but subsequently rendered, in the manner previously indicated, more tender and more widely diffused. Nor could we check our sympathy, if so urged by hard reason, without deterioration in the noblest part of our nature. The surgeon may harden himself whilst performing an operation, for he knows that he is acting for the good of his patient; but if we were intentionally to neglect the weak and helpless, it could only be for a contingent benefit, with a certain and great present evil. Hence we must bear without complaining the undoubtedly bad effects of the weak surviving and propagating their kind; but there appears to be at least one check in steady action, namely the weaker and inferior members of society not marrying so freely as the sound; and this check might be indefinitely increased, though this is more to be hoped for than expected, by the weak in body or mind refraining from marriage.”
― Charles Darwin,
The Descent of Man

So, the question must be asked, if you can genetically alter sheep and cows to achieve what is best for society, why can't you do this with human beings? The odd part of Darwin's writing is what I highlighted. What does a "noble" nature have to do with science? Nothing. Hitler then adopted a moral view that science is what is real and not the God talk about some noble nature that has nothing to do with science. So, Hitler went into hospitals and assessed who in the hospital was a benefit to the Fatherland, and who was a liability. Those that were a liability, the terminally ill, the insane, etc., were then sent to the basement and never seen again. And those who had genetic flaws, like hemophilia, were prevented from having children, etc. The Left is also headed down this road by championing things like euthanasia and abortion. Also, I have heard that the global Climate cult has been limited farming around the globe due to their crusade against carbon emissions from fertilizers as the UN glibly declares that about a billion people will starve to death next year. Is this mass genocide on a scale so huge it has never been seen before?

It then all comes to whose morality you go by, doesn't it? Oddly enough, the godless morality of the Left is creepily similar to that of the Nazi party, especially now that the Left now hates Jews.

Is God necessary from going down this dark moral path? He apparently is. again, by nothing more than observation of the past and present.

In fact, look at abortion today. When society was influenced more by the church, it was seen as immoral. However, as society divorced itself from the church and the state made it legal, the general view is that it is OK. This shows that people are basically sheep when it comes to morality. That is a fact by observation. It then comes down to, which shepherd do you then choose to guide your morality? Is it God or the state or something or someone else?

And why do most people have abortions today? It is due to financial concerns. Oddly enough, pagan religions used to frequently sacrifice their children to the pagan gods as well for such things as better crops, victory at war, and oddly enough, better fertility, just like people do today for a better financial position by having an abortion. The love of money truly is the root of all evil.

This is why when Abraham was told to sacrifice his son, Abraham did not think it an odd request because that sort of thing was done around him all the time. But when God stopped him, it sent a message to Abraham and to everyone during that time that the God of the Bible is different and is not like this.

Some things never change without the true God in our lives.

A godless morality is a huge conundrum for those not of faith because without mankind being made in the image of God, thus special and protected, you then are no better than a glorified animal As I have said before, look at how humans treat animals. They lock them in zoos for our entertainment, use them as beasts of burden, and kill and eat them. And yes, only the God of the Bible teaches that mankind is made in his image, thus special and separate from the animal kingdom and must be treated accordingly.

The choice society has it to choose the morality that best suits them.
 
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15th post
First of all, everyone has morals. Even Hitler had morals. For example, Hitler was an avid vegetarian because he loved animals, and the Nazi party passed the most progressive laws to date to protect animals for such things as scientific experimentation. The Nazi party was also advocates of the environment as they created the first National parks in Europe, were the first to put animals and plants on endangered species list to protect them and were horrified at the prospect of talk about putting a damn on the Rhine due to the possible environmental consequences.

They also adopted the view that the human race could be genetically improved, which would be for the general "good" of society.

For example, Charles Darwin wrote this:

“With savages, the weak in body or mind are soon eliminated; and those that survive commonly exhibit a vigorous state of health. We civilised men, on the other hand, do our utmost to check the process of elimination; we build asylums for the imbecile, the maimed, and the sick; we institute poor-laws; and our medical men exert their utmost skill to save the life of every one to the last moment. There is reason to believe that vaccination has preserved thousands, who from a weak constitution would formerly have succumbed to small-pox. Thus the weak members of civilised societies propagate their kind. No one who has attended to the breeding of domestic animals will doubt that this must be highly injurious to the race of man. It is surprising how soon a want of care, or care wrongly directed, leads to the degeneration of a domestic race; but excepting in the case of man himself, hardly any one is so ignorant as to allow his worst animals to breed.

The aid which we feel impelled to give to the helpless is mainly an incidental result of the instinct of sympathy, which was originally acquired as part of the social instincts, but subsequently rendered, in the manner previously indicated, more tender and more widely diffused. Nor could we check our sympathy, if so urged by hard reason, without deterioration in the noblest part of our nature. The surgeon may harden himself whilst performing an operation, for he knows that he is acting for the good of his patient; but if we were intentionally to neglect the weak and helpless, it could only be for a contingent benefit, with a certain and great present evil. Hence we must bear without complaining the undoubtedly bad effects of the weak surviving and propagating their kind; but there appears to be at least one check in steady action, namely the weaker and inferior members of society not marrying so freely as the sound; and this check might be indefinitely increased, though this is more to be hoped for than expected, by the weak in body or mind refraining from marriage.”
― Charles Darwin,
The Descent of Man

So, the question must be asked, if you can genetically alter sheep and cows to achieve what is best for society, why can't you do this with human beings? The odd part of Darwin's writing is what I highlighted. What does a "noble" nature have to do with science? Nothing. Hitler then adopted a moral view that science is what is real and not the God talk about some noble nature that has nothing to do with science. So, Hitler went into hospitals and assessed who in the hospital was a benefit to the Fatherland, and who was a liability. Those that were a liability, the terminally ill, the insane, etc., were then sent to the basement and never seen again. And those who had genetic flaws, like hemophilia, were prevented from having children, etc. The Left is also headed down this road by championing things like euthanasia and abortion. Also, I have heard that the global Climate cult has been limited farming around the globe due to their crusade against carbon emissions from fertilizers as the UN glibly declares that about a billion people will starve to death next year. Is this mass genocide on a scale so huge it has never been seen before?

It then all comes to whose morality you go by, doesn't it? Oddly enough, the godless morality of the Left is creepily similar to that of the Nazi party, especially now that the Left now hates Jews.

Is God necessary from going down this dark moral path? He apparently is. again, by nothing more than observation of the past and present.

In fact, look at abortion today. When society was influenced more by the church, it was seen as immoral. However, as society divorced itself from the church and the state made it legal, the general view is that it is OK. This shows that people are basically sheep when it comes to morality. That is a fact by observation. It then comes down to, which shepherd do you then choose to guide your morality? Is it God or the state or something or someone else?

And why do most people have abortions today? It is due to financial concerns. Oddly enough, pagan religions used to frequently sacrifice their children to the pagan gods as well for such things as better crops, victory at war, and oddly enough, better fertility, just like people do today for a better financial position by having an abortion. The love of money truly is the root of all evil.

This is why when Abraham was told to sacrifice his son, Abraham did not think it an odd request because that sort of thing was done around him all the time. But when God stopped him, it sent a message to Abraham and to everyone during that time that the God of the Bible is different and is not like this.

Some things never change without the true God in our lives.

A godless morality is a huge conundrum for those not of faith because without mankind being made in the image of God, thus special and protected, you then are no better than a glorified animal As I have said before, look at how humans treat animals. They lock them in zoos for our entertainment, use them as beasts of burden, and kill and eat them. And yes, only the God of the Bible teaches that mankind is made in his image, thus special and separate from the animal kingdom and must be treated accordingly.

The choice society has it to choose the morality that best suits them.
I agree that belief in God can lead to moral accountability, but is it the only possible structure that does? Is it not possible to build societal systems of moral restraint and meaning that don’t rely on the divine, but instead on empathy, responsibility, and shared consequence? Is it possible that what you call God’s morality can be a language for certain universal ethical insights, like dignity, compassion, responsibility, that might still hold even if some people arrive at them differently?

You’ve made some strong comparisons between modern left-leaning ideologies and historic atrocities. Do you think there’s any nuance lost in collapsing these movements into a single moral category? Can moral error exist without necessarily being rooted in godlessness? If morality depends on the presence of God, what happens when people act morally without that belief? Are they mistaken? Lucky? Or is there something more complicated going on?
 
I agree that belief in God can lead to moral accountability, but is it the only possible structure that does? Is it not possible to build societal systems of moral restraint and meaning that don’t rely on the divine, but instead on empathy, responsibility, and shared consequence? Is it possible that what you call God’s morality can be a language for certain universal ethical insights, like dignity, compassion, responsibility, that might still hold even if some people arrive at them differently?

You’ve made some strong comparisons between modern left-leaning ideologies and historic atrocities. Do you think there’s any nuance lost in collapsing these movements into a single moral category? Can moral error exist without necessarily being rooted in godlessness? If morality depends on the presence of God, what happens when people act morally without that belief? Are they mistaken? Lucky? Or is there something more complicated going on?
We are all given a God given conscience as a guide. That is why, for the most part, every society views such things as theft and murder as "wrong". It is just that the godless societies tend to have more of what their official laws say is wrong.
 
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