Peace Or Piece?????????

[pbel]

I guess what bothers me the most is seeing the Israelis destroy helpless Palestinian homes is because these very people suffered a Holocaust within our life-times in Germany...You've got to ask, having gone trough this, how can they dole it out so systematically despite condemnation by the UN and everybody else on Planet Earth?

If one of the pro-Israeli posters can tell me why in some factual truthful way, please educate me.





UN slams Israel demolition of West Bank properties

Jerusalem (AFP) - The United Nations Wednesday slammed Israel's demolition of 30 Palestinian properties in the West Bank, saying it displaced some families for the second time in less than two weeks.







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"I am concerned about the destruction of Palestinian structures in the Jordan Valley yesterday (Tuesday)," UN Humanitarian Coordinator James Rawley said in a statement.

"The demolitions resulted in the displacement of 41 people, including 24 children, and affected another 20. Both refugee and non-refugee families were affected." the statement said.




UN slams Israel demolition of West Bank properties

"Some of the families were displaced for the second time this month and a number of donor-funded structures were among those demolished."

Israel's civilian administration of the West Bank had no immediate comment on the demolitions.

A group of 36 NGOs last week urged Israel to stop demolishing Palestinian homes, hours ahead of a visit by US Secretary of State John Kerry aimed at revitalising Middle East peace talks.

"Demolitions often occur to facilitate the expansion of illegal Israeli settlements, with 60 percent of demolitions occurring in Palestinian communities close to settlement zones," rights groups and charities including Oxfam, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch said in a joint statement.

 

[aris2chat]

Bedouins are being moved from unplanned rough homes o planned communities just a short distance away. Israel could not provide services to the unplanned living area. Now the bedouin will have services and schools.
West bank Israel is building in existing "settlements" that will part of the land trade in the peace agreement. They are not building on the other side. Several former settlements have been turned over to the PA recently.
Under or undeveloped land in the WB is being made into modern ecology cities for the palestinians, by a palestinian. New land is being prepped for new orchards and farms for the palestinians.
Water, sewage, garbage, energy, transportation systems are all in the works for the WB. PA is appropriating land for the development.
Progress is in the works and some lots are in the way and people need to be relocated. This is not an Israeli thing, it happens everywhere in the world.

 

[pbel]

You paint a Rosy picture, but I doubt the Palestinians are going to swap Jerusalem for a desert oasis...Then why is the UN condemning it and countries are cautioning their citizens no to deal with any entities in the illegal settlements?

While you mention the Bedouins, the Israeli are destroying a way of life that has existed longer than Judaism has existed.

This is not Zionist co-existence but that of Cultural Warfare.

 

[aris2chat]

Bedouin in every country are loosing their old way of live. Modern development, progress in inevitable and people need to adapt, even bedouin in Israel, Jordan, Saudi, etc.
Bedouin are citizens of Israel and Israel cannot provide services for them in tented or semi-build communities.
Heath care, schools, safe homes, some form of commerce for economy...........they can't make their own fabricated home in one spot and still pretend to be bedouin living a nomadic life style. They used to move from Israel through Jordan and down to Saudi, but now they have settled, and that settlement is not heathy, safe nor does it have proper services need for a population.
Time to meet the modern world.

 

[pbel]

Bedouin in every country are loosing their old way of live. Modern development, progress in inevitable and people need to adapt, even bedouin in Israel, Jordan, Saudi, etc.
Bedouin are citizens of Israel and Israel cannot provide services for them in tented or semi-build communities.
Heath care, schools, safe homes, some form of commerce for economy...........they can't make their own fabricated home in one spot and still pretend to be bedouin living a nomadic life style. They used to move from Israel through Jordan and down to Saudi, but now they have settled, and that settlement is not heathy, safe nor does it have proper services need for a population.
Time to meet the modern world.

It is very arrogant in my opinion to tell ancient cultures how to live their lives...The western Powers imposed their will in dividing the ME to suit their strategic needs.

Israeli methods are nothing but Military maneuvers to keep an eye on its non-Jewish population...in a way I understand her military needs, but stop the rosy description and the of diversion for the cause, while people die and suffer for the occupation..

 

[aris2chat]

From gypsies to the american native indian, life moved on and so must other groups adapt. Bedouin in Jordan and Saudi are learning to adapt, why not those in Israel as well? You think Saudi bedouin still live in make gift tents? They have A/C and flushing toilets in modern tents carried on land rovers or trucks and set up by paid labor. They live in tents for vacations or meditation. It is not a life style like it once was for so many of them.
Camels now carry deadly diseases and most in Arabia are raised on compound and trained for racing, not at baggage carriers. They are tourist attractions.
Time to take their sheep and belonging and live in better surroundings instead of unhealthy poor educated mud and refuse homes they built as temporary structures but never left.
They are only going a few miles down the road, not half way across the world. They will just have running clean water and proper refuse processing and other services close by them.

 

[pbel]

From gypsies to the american native indian, life moved on and so must other groups adapt. Bedouin in Jordan and Saudi are learning to adapt, why not those in Israel as well? You think Saudi bedouin still live in make gift tents? They have A/C and flushing toilets in modern tents carried on land rovers or trucks and set up by paid labor. They live in tents for vacations or meditation. It is not a life style like it once was for so many of them.
Camels now carry deadly diseases and most in Arabia are raised on compound and trained for racing, not at baggage carriers. They are tourist attractions.
Time to take their sheep and belonging and live in better surroundings instead of unhealthy poor educated mud and refuse homes they built as temporary structures but never left.
They are only going a few miles down the road, not half way across the world. They will just have running clean water and proper refuse processing and other services close by them.

I've always loved the wit of Voltaire but my Soul belonged to Rousseau who reminded humanity about the "Dictatorship of the Majority," thank you for reminding me.

 

[Bloodrock44]

I guess what bothers me the most is seeing the Israelis destroy helpless Palestinian homes is because these very people suffered a Holocaust within our life-times in Germany...You've got to ask, having gone trough this, how can they dole it out so systematically despite condemnation by the UN and everybody else on Planet Earth?

If one of the pro-Israeli posters can tell me why in some factual truthful way, please educate me.

Be careful what you ask for Pbel. Aris will eat your lunch.

 

[aris2chat]

Bedouin were living in poor conditions, unhealthy and unsafe. Now they will have better housing and service.
If they don't like their new location, they can choose any other town or community to live in, as can all Israelis. They want to stay with their tribe, they will accept and adapt to the new community for them, and hopefully they will prosper there instead of decay into oblivion where they were.

 

[pbel]

Bedouin were living in poor conditions, unhealthy and unsafe. Now they will have better housing and service.
If they don't like their new location, they can choose any other town or community to live in, as can all Israelis. They want to stay with their tribe, they will accept and adapt to the new community for them, and hopefully they will prosper there instead of decay into oblivion where they were.

Guess Israel decided to shelf your sweet talk and reversed its decision on the Bedouins Aris!

Now lets get back to the OP and the Palestinians who are being crushed by the Israeli Boot.



Israel shelves plan to forcibly relocate Bedouin from desert lands | World news | theguardian.com
The Israeli government has shelved a plan to forcibly relocate tens of thousands of Bedouin Arabs from their ancestral lands to government designated towns.

The proposal had prompted widespread protests in Israel and Palestine, and attracted international criticism.

The decision to halt the progress of the legislation before the Israeli parliament, followed the disclosure this week by one of the plan's architects that the Bedouin had never been properly consulted nor agreed to the move.

 

[aris2chat]

It was not ancestral land, they were moved there 50 years ago temporarily. Negev was just a part of their original route each year, but when borders were closed, they could not migrate. As citizens of Israel they required services that could not be proved where they were.
People misinformed of "all" the facts protested and made enough stink that for the time being the move has been put on hold.
They were not being moved so far and living conditions would have been vastly improved. They were moving well within walking distance, just a few miles. For shepherds and farmers a walk like that is nothing.
Anyway, they won't be moved right now.

 

[pbel]

Nothing you have said on the subject is factual...can you provide some cyber linkage date and especially your repeated health issues?

Your rosy picture to me sounds like the Israelis want to put them in a Bantustans like they have the Palestinians...A simple ruse for military control.

 

[aris2chat]

You can start with
Negev Bedouin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You really think bedouin living like this
http://www.bonfireimpact.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/bedouincamp-650x300.png
http://english.pnn.ps/new/bedouin_tribe_-_Bedouin_Regulation.jpg
http://cdn.palsolidarity.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Photo-30-06-13-11.58.49-600x448.jpg
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2008/03/31/bedoiun10a.jpg
http://followbenandjenna.com/travel/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/CIMG4437.jpg
should be allowed to stay where they are? That is is healthy? Most have moved to planned towns within Israel. The nomadic bedouin way of life is in the past, not just in Israel but throughout the middle east. Israel did not create this end, it began with the Ottomans. Israel just inherited the problem and has tried to find a solution so the tribes can live better lives as Israelis.
Palestinians in camps live in fully functional apartments high rises. Why should Israelis in the negev live in worse conditions? You don't think disease and squalor might be a threat to urban areas near by?
Do you honestly think the bedouin are better off living like that instead of a planned community?

 

[pbel]

You can start with
Negev Bedouin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You really think bedouin living like this
http://www.bonfireimpact.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/bedouincamp-650x300.png
http://english.pnn.ps/new/bedouin_tribe_-_Bedouin_Regulation.jpg
http://cdn.palsolidarity.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Photo-30-06-13-11.58.49-600x448.jpg
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2008/03/31/bedoiun10a.jpg
http://followbenandjenna.com/travel/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/CIMG4437.jpg
should be allowed to stay where they are? That is is healthy? Most have moved to planned towns within Israel. The nomadic bedouin way of life is in the past, not just in Israel but throughout the middle east. Israel did not create this end, it began with the Ottomans. Israel just inherited the problem and has tried to find a solution so the tribes can live better lives as Israelis.
Palestinians in camps live in fully functional apartments high rises. Why should Israelis in the negev live in worse conditions? You don't think disease and squalor might be a threat to urban areas near by?
Do you honestly think the bedouin are better off living like that instead of a planned community?

There you go again with unsubstantiated remarks about squalor blah blah blah...Can't you make a statement and link it to a study that is not a self-fulfilling prophesy of Israeli Researchers??

You get an F for scholarship. Besides there are many instances in America where groups refuse modern medicine, the Amish and Christian Scientist; the difference being, we don't round them up and force our methods down their collative throats!

 

[pbel]

It was not ancestral land, they were moved there 50 years ago temporarily.




Negev Bedouin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Negev was just a part of their original route each year, but when borders were closed, they could not migrate. As citizens of Israel they required services that could not be proved where they were.
People misinformed of "all" the facts protested and made enough stink that for the time being the move has been put on hold.
They were not being moved so far and living conditions would have been vastly improved. They were moving well within walking distance, just a few miles. For shepherds and farmers a walk like that is nothing.
Anyway, they won't be moved right now.

Antiquity[edit]




\
Fifty years you say?
Your link says 4-7 thou8sand years.

Traditional Bedouin camel race in the northern Negev near Arad, Israel
Historically, the Bedouin engaged in nomadic herding, agriculture and sometimes fishing. They also earned income by transporting goods and people[15] across the desert.[16] Scarcity of water and of permanent pastoral land required them to move constantly. The first recorded nomadic settlement in Sinai dates back 4,000-7,000 years.[16] The Bedouin of the Sinai peninsula migrated to and from the Negev.[17]

 

[aris2chat]

Israel-Bashers Let the Bedouin Rot
site-iconcommentarymagazine.com/2013/12/13/israel-bashers-let-the-bedouin-rot-negev/
Jonathan S. Tobin

The Israeli government has waved the white flag. After trying to put through a rational plan for the Negev that would bring some aid and infrastructure to their nation’s most impoverished population, Jerusalem has given up. The announcement was greeted as a victory for Israel-bashers that painted the plan created by the government’s director of planning Ehud Prawer and former Cabinet minister Benny Begin as a racist land grab that stole land from the Bedouin. After violent demonstrations supported by a minority of Bedouin and international protests supported by the cast of usual suspects involved in efforts to delegitimize the Jewish state, the Netanyahu government has understandably cut its losses. With so much else to deal with in terms of the Iranian nuclear threat and the peace negotiations with the Palestinians, what was the point of sticking their necks out on an issue where they were getting killed by both the left and the right?

The demise of the Prawer-Begin plan will be celebrated by the left as setback to Israeli control of the Negev and by the right as the collapse of a plan they saw as a dangerous giveaway of state land since it would have allocated vast tracts of desert territory to the nomads. But the only real losers here are the Bedouin. They are the poorest members of Israeli society and many live in ramshackle shantytowns with no infrastructure or state services. In exchange for giving up some of the area that they claimed, albeit without legal proof of ownership, many would have been left in place and a minority would have been moved to new towns where they could have joined the 21st century. While leftist foes of Israel denounced this as paternalism or colonialism, their victory leaves the Bedouin in the same desperate condition. But then again, like those who pose as friends of the Palestinians, the point of the exercise isn’t to help the Arabs; it’s to hurt Israel.

Israeli planners will now go back to the drawing boards to try to do something for the Bedouin whose isolation and pre-modern style of life may seem romantic to those in the West but which, in reality, condemns them to lives of grinding poverty and deprivation. It’s possible that the government will now craft an even more generous plan that will give the Bedouin more land as well as the services they need. But the problem here is that virtually any attempt to give them what they require will run afoul of the notion that any attempt to create infrastructure in the Negev will be misinterpreted as a Zionist plot.

Let there be no mistake about the fact that Israel’s leftist foes don’t give a damn about the Bedouin. Bringing water, sewage, electricity and educational services to camps that can stretch out for miles in places throughout the desert is impossible. While most of the existing Bedouin towns can be left in place, the most far-flung need to be consolidated if the people who live there are not going to be left in shacks with no connections to the country’s first-world economy. Connecting them to the grid means some have to move.

Much like the descendants of the 1948 Palestinian refugees, the Bedouin only serve a purpose to Israel-bashers if they can be portrayed as victims of the Zionists. They don’t care that the main purpose of the Prawer-Begin plan was to help the Bedouin. Those who claim to demonstrate on their behalf have done nothing for either group. Indeed, the more miserable their existence, the better they like it. Any deprivation faced by this population is fine, so long as it serves to make the Israelis look like exploiters. The crocodile tears they shed for the Bedouin will be swiftly forgotten as they move on to other issues and Israelis who argued about it will similarly push them to the back of the national agenda.

Just like the Palestinian refugees who have been kept homeless for generations in order to serve as a standing argument against Israel—while an equal number of Jewish refugees from Arab and Muslim lands were resettled in Israel or the West—the leftist foes of Israel are content to let the Bedouin rot in ramshackle tents. That’s where they will remain until Israel finally puts forward a new idea that will be, no matter how generous, denounced just as furiously by Israel’s enemies. Those who think the demise of the Prawer-Begin plan is good for the Bedouin are lying.

 

[aris2chat]

Did you bother to see the pictures of conditions the bedouin live, in the last make shift settlements they are in?
How are conditions unsubstantiated?
Israel was doing this for the bedouin, not against them. Where they are is not authorized location and Israel is no stealing, but giving.
Now, because of all this concern for the bedouin, they will be suffering the cold as well that has already cut power in the WB and caused 50 deaths in Gaza.
Now the snow probably will be something else people will try to blame Israel for.
It is the will of god, or so arabs would say, that so many will die this winter in the middle east. But irrational hate and stupidity will unfortunately find a way to thrive.

 

[pbel]

Did you bother to see the pictures of conditions the bedouin live, in the last make shift settlements they are in?
How are conditions unsubstantiated?
Israel was doing this for the bedouin, not against them. Where they are is not authorized location and Israel is no stealing, but giving.
Now, because of all this concern for the bedouin, they will be suffering the cold as well that has already cut power in the WB and caused 50 deaths in Gaza.
Now the snow probably will be something else people will try to blame Israel for.
It is the will of god, or so arabs would say, that so many will die this winter in the middle east. But irrational hate and stupidity will unfortunately find a way to thrive.

Of course I saw the photos, it is their choice...Your analysis is getting comical and derogatory in judging a culture's decisions and Mores despite the fact that the UN and the worlds condemns Israeli actions.

AND, YOU CONVEINANTLY FORGET THAT Israeli TROOPS TORE DOWN THEIR TENTS AND FORCED THESE SHANTIES.

 

[Indeependent]

Did you bother to see the pictures of conditions the bedouin live, in the last make shift settlements they are in?
How are conditions unsubstantiated?
Israel was doing this for the bedouin, not against them. Where they are is not authorized location and Israel is no stealing, but giving.
Now, because of all this concern for the bedouin, they will be suffering the cold as well that has already cut power in the WB and caused 50 deaths in Gaza.
Now the snow probably will be something else people will try to blame Israel for.
It is the will of god, or so arabs would say, that so many will die this winter in the middle east. But irrational hate and stupidity will unfortunately find a way to thrive.

Of course I saw the photos, it is their choice...Your analysis is getting comical and derogatory in judging a culture's decisions and Mores despite the fact that the UN and the worlds condemns Israeli actions.

AND, YOU CONVEINANTLY FORGET THAT Israeli TROOPS TORE DOWN THIR TENTS AND FORCED THESE CHANTIES.

Why disguise your Jew hatred behind a question that been answered by countless nations in the last 3,000 years?
Conquest, land allocation, infrastructure happens, just like sh!t happens.
If you don't like the fact that THE SOLE JEWISH nation is doing it, go there and protest.

I, for one, think if a human being can have access to a modern infrastructure, good for them.

But I know, it's those f*ing Jews giving it to non-Jews!

 

[pbel]

Did you bother to see the pictures of conditions the bedouin live, in the last make shift settlements they are in?
How are conditions unsubstantiated?
Israel was doing this for the bedouin, not against them. Where they are is not authorized location and Israel is no stealing, but giving.
Now, because of all this concern for the bedouin, they will be suffering the cold as well that has already cut power in the WB and caused 50 deaths in Gaza.
Now the snow probably will be something else people will try to blame Israel for.
It is the will of god, or so arabs would say, that so many will die this winter in the middle east. But irrational hate and stupidity will unfortunately find a way to thrive.

Of course I saw the photos, it is their choice...Your analysis is getting comical and derogatory in judging a culture's decisions and Mores despite the fact that the UN and the worlds condemns Israeli actions.

AND, YOU CONVEINANTLY FORGET THAT Israeli TROOPS TORE DOWN THIR TENTS AND FORCED THESE CHANTIES.

Why disguise your Jew hatred behind a question that been answered by countless nations in the last 3,000 years?
Conquest, land allocation, infrastructure happens, just like sh!t happens.
If you don't like the fact that THE SOLE JEWISH nation is doing it, go there and protest.

I, for one, think if a human being can have access to a modern infrastructure, good for them.

But I know, it's those f*ing Jews giving it to non-Jews!

Why would the UN then add its voice? Do you believe the UN hates Jews? The old convenient bull, if you don't agree with the Israelis, you hate Jews...

Its a sad defense and arrogant.