'Pay Teachers More'

[chanel]

Private school teachers work with higher quality "product". And children are not widgets.

More money is not the solution. But neither is teacher bashing. Guess what? There are excellent public schools in this country. But you'd never know it today.

 

[chanel]

Social skills do not have to depend upon regimented schools designed to turn out compliant factory workers.

Parents of homeschoolers find "socializing" opportunities for their kids via sports and other activities. With less money going to pay for failing public schools, parents would have more resources for extra curricular activities (which many public schools are eliminating anyway).

'Parents of homeschoolers". My guess is that children that are successfully homeschooled have parental supervision and involvement. Guess what? Half the kids in this country are being raised in single parent homes and there are many in two parent homes, that get no supervision or support either.

I'm a pragmatist. If those parents were involved in the first place, we wouldn't even be having this conversation today. Many teachers are serving as substitute parents, counselors, social workers, friends, and JANITORS - trying to clean up other people's messes. That's reality.

The difference between outstanding public schools and failing ones is predominantly influenced by socio-economics. No better example than NJ - home to the best and worst schools in the country. Without acknowledging that fact, the entire conversation is moot.

 

[Stephanie]

So talking about the salaries of teachers is now called, teacher bashing.

good grief. or to say, we want them to go sleep in their cars.

the friggen DRAMA.

 

[Defiant1]

Social skills do not have to depend upon regimented schools designed to turn out compliant factory workers.

Parents of homeschoolers find "socializing" opportunities for their kids via sports and other activities. With less money going to pay for failing public schools, parents would have more resources for extra curricular activities (which many public schools are eliminating anyway).

'Parents of homeschoolers". My guess is that children that are successfully homeschooled have parental supervision and involvement. Guess what? Half the kids in this country are being raised in single parent homes and there are many in two parent homes, that get no supervision or support either.

I'm a pragmatist. If those parents were involved in the first place, we wouldn't even be having this conversation today. Many teachers are serving as substitute parents, counselors, social workers, friends, and JANITORS - trying to clean up other people's messes. That's reality.

The difference between outstanding public schools and failing ones is predominantly influenced by socio-economics. No better example than NJ - home to the best and worst schools in the country. Without acknowledging that fact, the entire conversation is moot.

This is what has to stop. We cannot afford to raise every child in this country on taxpayer dollars.

We are supposed to pay for schools not day care centers.

 

[KissMy]

I am all for hiring new teachers & paying them more. That is the opposite views of teachers unions. They want to keep bad teachers with seniority. Unions jack up the old crappy teachers pay in their last year before retirement so they will get 100K per year retired. We spend all of our money so retired teachers can live better than the working teachers. Unions lay off new superior teachers & don't pay these new teachers well.

 

[chanel]

Yep. People who work in 7/11 make a lot less. And people who live in OK make a lot less than people who live in NJ. And yes, teachers have summers off because that's how schools work in this country.

The average home price in my community is $300K. How about OK?

Time will tell. When teachers take your advice and leave for other professions, we'll see who fills their shoes. Maybe they can outsource the children.

A lot of people wish they could AFFORD a house that cost, 300,000.
sorry dear. I'm not going to argue with you. take care.

A lot of people in NJ DO AFFORD a house in NJ. When teacher bashing (I mean talking salaries) it's best not to generalize.

Estimated median household income in 2009: $50,184 ($41,591 in 1999)
This county: $50184
New Jersey: $68342

Median contract rent in 2009 for apartments: $789 (lower quartile is $564, upper quartile is $1,054)
This county:$789
State: $962

Estimated median house or condo value in 2009: $335,700 (it was $138,000 in 2000)
Cape May County: $335,700
New Jersey: $348,300
Lower value quartile - upper value quartile: $230,200 - $475,500

Read more: Cape May County, New Jersey detailed profile - houses, real estate, cost of living, wages, work, agriculture, ancestries, and more

I sense some envy in your posts for those high paying jobs with great vacations. Why don't you go back to school Stephanie?

 

[Provocateur]

Yep. People who work in 7/11 make a lot less. And people who live in OK make a lot less than people who live in NJ. And yes, teachers have summers off because that's how schools work in this country.

The average home price in my community is $300K. How about OK?

Time will tell. When teachers take your advice and leave for other professions, we'll see who fills their shoes. Maybe they can outsource the children.

As of March, 2011 where I live:

– ~$529K median. It was in the mid 700s before the bubble burst.


The teachers start under 40,000.

You can look at your region to see what the teachers are paid: Salary.com - Average Salary Information, Job Search, Education Opportunities and Career Advice

You can also find median home prices, etc. at Stats about all US cities - real estate, relocation info, house prices, home value estimator, recent sales, cost of living, crime, race, income, photos, education, maps, weather, houses, schools, neighborhoods, and more

 

[chanel]

Good info. It just amazes me that we are even discussing this. I grew up in an upper middle class area where teachers were revered. They were paid well and "put out a good product". Of course, it had nothing to do with the fact that we were good kids, our parents were highly educated, and they supported the schools any way they could.

 

[boedicca]

I grew up in a middle and working class area, attending the local schools with most of the other kids in the neighborhood. The teachers were respected because our parents held us to proper standards. Such standards do not depend upon economic status; they depend upon VALUES.

We have been spending more per pupil, with very poor return:

CARPE DIEM: Education Spending Doubled, Stagnant Test Scores


Arguing for more teacher pay is pointless. It's not the pay that's the problem.

 

[Provocateur]

I grew up in a middle and working class area, attending the local schools with most of the other kids in the neighborhood. The teachers were respected because our parents held us to proper standards. Such standards do not depend upon economic status; they depend upon VALUES.

We have been spending more per pupil, with very poor return:

CARPE DIEM: Education Spending Doubled, Stagnant Test Scores


Arguing for more teacher pay is pointless. It's not the pay that's the problem.

I really wonder about that graph. I've seen it many times. CA is $8736. Where are they spending over $11,000?

And looking at your graph, it occurs to me that the 70s was when women burned their bras and said that staying at home was oppressive and demeaning.

But I agree, throwing money at the problem isn't the answer. Unfortunately, I don't think there is an answer.

I would like them to go after the top administrative positions, personally. I don't think teacher wages are outrageous.

 

[boedicca]

I grew up in a middle and working class area, attending the local schools with most of the other kids in the neighborhood. The teachers were respected because our parents held us to proper standards. Such standards do not depend upon economic status; they depend upon VALUES.

We have been spending more per pupil, with very poor return:

CARPE DIEM: Education Spending Doubled, Stagnant Test Scores


Arguing for more teacher pay is pointless. It's not the pay that's the problem.

I really wonder about that graph. I've seen it many times. CA is $8736. Where are they spending over $11,000?

And looking at your graph, it occurs to me that the 70s was when women burned their bras and said that staying at home was oppressive and demeaning.

But I agree, throwing money at the problem isn't the answer. Unfortunately, I don't think there is an answer.

I would like them to go after the top administrative positions, personally. I don't think teacher wages are outrageous.

Your figure is cooked; I suspect it is based upon the "Comparable Wage Index". It is adjusted for a comparable wage index.

Actual per pupil spending in CA was over $9.7K in 2008.

California comparison

And from the source link, other expenses, such as benefits for current retirees and school construction costs are excluded (the state also uses this little fiction in its stats).

Annual Financial Data - Financial (CA Dept of Education)

 

[chanel]

Education costs have gone up for many reasons. And scores have gone down for many of the same reasons. The big ticket item is special education. Mainstreaming has brought down the scores. We spend 5 mil a years on out of district placements for handicapped and adjudicated youth. It's the law. We spend 1 mil on instructional aides. It's the law. About 5 grand a week is spent on tutoring kids who have been suspended. It's the law. We have psychologists, social workers, substance abuse counselors. OT and PT therapists, ESL instructors, sign language interpreters, specialized wheelchairs, communication devices, etc. etc. Yeah. It's expensive.

Soon NJ will require Bullying Specialists in every school. Any politician who would dare raise this issue would be committing political suicide. Cutting services to handicapped children will NEVER be on the table.

No amount of money is going to get a fetal alcohol child with a 65 IQ to pass the state test. But that's not the only reason he's in school.

 

[boedicca]

Good points.

The advanced programs for smart kids in CA have been largely replaced with Special Ed. One of my best friends is a school psychologist. She has many horror stories about the disruption and waste of resources caused by ADA kids. The worst one I recall was an autistic boy who was allowed to sit in class and masturbate. His parents were so lawyered up that the gutless wonders in Administration refused to remove him.

 

[Intense]

My wife teaches, she could have done just about anything in the business world but in the olden times - said facetiously - women taught, were mothers and home makers before returning to teaching. Because I have worked in corporate America, we live well. But if you are a teacher and bread winner, another old term, you'd have a tough go of it in America today. If we want a nation of educated citizens we must value education and pay for it, seems simple.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/13/opinion/13kristof.html?_r=1&hp

By Nicholas D. Kristof

"From the debates in Wisconsin and elsewhere about public sector unions, you might get the impression that we’re going bust because teachers are overpaid.

That’s a pernicious fallacy. A basic educational challenge is not that teachers are raking it in, but that they are underpaid. If we want to compete with other countries, and chip away at poverty across America, then we need to pay teachers more so as to attract better people into the profession."

http://www.usmessageboard.com/educa...-disaster-for-higher-education-in-nevada.html

Living Wage??? Yes. Jack-pot, buy a Lottery Ticket and take your chances like the rest of us.

 

[code1211]

I grew up in a middle and working class area, attending the local schools with most of the other kids in the neighborhood. The teachers were respected because our parents held us to proper standards. Such standards do not depend upon economic status; they depend upon VALUES.

We have been spending more per pupil, with very poor return:

CARPE DIEM: Education Spending Doubled, Stagnant Test Scores


Arguing for more teacher pay is pointless. It's not the pay that's the problem.

I really wonder about that graph. I've seen it many times. CA is $8736. Where are they spending over $11,000?

And looking at your graph, it occurs to me that the 70s was when women burned their bras and said that staying at home was oppressive and demeaning.

But I agree, throwing money at the problem isn't the answer. Unfortunately, I don't think there is an answer.

I would like them to go after the top administrative positions, personally. I don't think teacher wages are outrageous.

Your figure is cooked; I suspect it is based upon the "Comparable Wage Index". It is adjusted for a comparable wage index.

Actual per pupil spending in CA was over $9.7K in 2008.

California comparison

And from the source link, other expenses, such as benefits for current retirees and school construction costs are excluded (the state also uses this little fiction in its stats).

Annual Financial Data - Financial (CA Dept of Education)

In Indianapolis, it costs about $11,000/year to educate a student in Public Schools. It's a tad over half of that in private schools.

The Governor, Mitch Danials is trying to adjust teachers' pay according to the results produced. The NEA and state teachers are rabidly opposed to this. Pay for the level of quality produced? Who ever heard of such a thing? Apparently not our teachers.

This is a real world measure of the critical success indicator and the teachers are against it. Instead they wish to be paid on length of service and number of degrees. The only measure of success is whether or not the children are learning.

One might suppose they feel that it would be a better job without the children.

 

[chanel]

Good points.

The advanced programs for smart kids in CA have been largely replaced with Special Ed. One of my best friends is a school psychologist. She has many horror stories about the disruption and waste of resources caused by ADA kids. The worst one I recall was an autistic boy who was allowed to sit in class and masturbate. His parents were so lawyered up that the gutless wonders in Administration refused to remove him.

OMG! I think I'd quit. What about the rights of the other kids?


At my bro's school they had a parent claim that cigarette smoking was a "manifestation of his disability" because the school could not legally permit him to smoke, they hired a full time aide to walk him to class and make sure he didn't leave school to have a smoke.

There was an article in our local paper about a lawsuit against our district for 600K. The parent had recently moved here and wanted her son to work with the same in home agency he had in their previous town. Because we had no such program, the mother wanted the district to provide a satellite office for this agency and pay for all its expenses. It was a sob story, but I actually contacted the writer and asked of she had mistakenly added an extra zero. She said the article was correct - 600K for one kid.

 

[Stephanie]

Yep. People who work in 7/11 make a lot less. And people who live in OK make a lot less than people who live in NJ. And yes, teachers have summers off because that's how schools work in this country.

The average home price in my community is $300K. How about OK?

Time will tell. When teachers take your advice and leave for other professions, we'll see who fills their shoes. Maybe they can outsource the children.

A lot of people wish they could AFFORD a house that cost, 300,000.
sorry dear. I'm not going to argue with you. take care.

A lot of people in NJ DO AFFORD a house in NJ. When teacher bashing (I mean talking salaries) it's best not to generalize.

Estimated median household income in 2009: $50,184 ($41,591 in 1999)
This county: $50184
New Jersey: $68342

Median contract rent in 2009 for apartments: $789 (lower quartile is $564, upper quartile is $1,054)
This county:$789
State: $962

Estimated median house or condo value in 2009: $335,700 (it was $138,000 in 2000)
Cape May County: $335,700
New Jersey: $348,300
Lower value quartile - upper value quartile: $230,200 - $475,500

Read more: Cape May County, New Jersey detailed profile - houses, real estate, cost of living, wages, work, agriculture, ancestries, and more

I sense some envy in your posts for those high paying jobs with great vacations. Why don't you go back to school Stephanie?

Why don't you move to a cheaper state to live and stop your whining. And listening to you whine I don't envy you, that's for sure.
The job I do is just as important as yours dear and I enjoy it. From hearing you speak I'd say you DON'T ENJOY your job anymore and is just looking for money, so why don't you go find another PROFESSION.

 

[Stephanie]

Good info. It just amazes me that we are even discussing this. I grew up in an upper middle class area where teachers were revered. They were paid well and "put out a good product". Of course, it had nothing to do with the fact that we were good kids, our parents were highly educated, and they supported the schools any way they could.

So that's your problem, you don't feel you're being Revered enough?
brother.

 

[Flopper]

Good grief, whatever happened to a Teacher just wanted to be one to MAKE A DIFFERENCE in a child's LIFE.

now it's ALL ABOUT MONEY.

As if more MONEY is going to make them BETTER teachers or make the students learn more.

Teachers don't FEEL they make enough, they can FIND another profession that PAYS MORE.

that's what the rest of US would do.

sheesh

Teachers definitely do find other professions that pay more. I sure did. Getting out of teaching was the smartest move I ever made. I must admit I still miss the kids, but putting up with long hours, mediocre pay, no chance for advance, and indifferent parents was not worth it to me.

 

[Stephanie]

Good grief, whatever happened to a Teacher just wanted to be one to MAKE A DIFFERENCE in a child's LIFE.

now it's ALL ABOUT MONEY.

As if more MONEY is going to make them BETTER teachers or make the students learn more.

Teachers don't FEEL they make enough, they can FIND another profession that PAYS MORE.

that's what the rest of US would do.

sheesh

Teachers definitely do find other professions that pay more. I sure did. Getting out of teaching was the smartest move I ever made. I must admit I still miss the kids, but putting up with long hours, mediocre pay, no chance for advance, and indifferent parents was not worth it to me.

That was a good move for you then.
People change careers all the time, it's not easy sometimes, but it can be done.