Palestinian Politics: Representation and Accountability with Ms. Noura Erakat

P F Tinmore

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Noura Eracat lays out the problems and suggests solutions to the situation in Palestine.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShHtHaQXmU0]Palestinian Politics: Representation and Accountability with Ms. Noura Erakat - YouTube[/ame]

Noura for president :thup:
 
I just got around to watching this. This woman is brilliant.
I have a policy of not voicing comment on internal Palestinian affairs --- I don't get a vote.
But what a bright light this woman is. I am reminded that the Palestinians don't really need my help!
This video is bookmarked.

Thanks again, Tinmore.
 
I just got around to watching this. This woman is brilliant.
I have a policy of not voicing comment on internal Palestinian affairs --- I don't get a vote...

Interesting. Do you get a vote in Israel? :lol:
 
No, and that is why I don't talk about Isreelii politics either.
 
Quote: Originally Posted by amity1844
I have a policy of not voicing comment on internal Palestinian affairs --- I don't get a vote...

Quote: Originally posted bt SAYIT
Interesting. Do you get a vote in Israel?

No, and that is why I don't talk about Isreelii politics either.

You don't comment on Israel's internal affairs? Really? Lie much? :lol:
 
Tinmore, don't know about president, but definitely foreign minister.

I think a task group could form an just itemize her diplomatic steps and take them one by one.
 
I just got around to watching this. This woman is brilliant.
I have a policy of not voicing comment on internal Palestinian affairs --- I don't get a vote.
But what a bright light this woman is. I am reminded that the Palestinians don't really need my help!
This video is bookmarked.

Thanks again, Tinmore.

A couple things she mentioned.

She mentioned that the BDS lost its bid at the Presbyterian Church but it probably would pass at the next meeting. It did.

Presbyterians to divest as protest against Israel

She also mentioned that the village of Battir should have been made a UNESCO protected site. It seems that that has happened too.

Palestinian village wins UNESCO listing against Israel barrier plan
 
P F Tinmore, Phoenall, et al,

You have to be kidding me!

Noura Eracat lays out the problems and suggests solutions to the situation in Palestine.

Palestinian Politics: Representation and Accountability with Ms. Noura Erakat - YouTube

Noura for president :thup:

Islamonazi propaganda

What issues do you have with what she said?
(COMMENT)

Professor Noura Eracat is an excellent speaker. And you can tell by the shear energy she put forth in her presentation that she believes in her perspective and the cause behind her plea for understanding. And just as I say, it is important to listen to her content, it is very important to understand the consequences of adopting the perspective she holds. It is one of those gray matter intensive and thought provoking dialogs.

Professor Eracat makes a couple of important points about the Arab-Palestinian Leadership and its performance. First among them, and very important is that the Leadership has not made the case for total recognition of the State of Palestine as truly a "state." That is neither Israel's fault or the fault of the US. The Arab Palestinian either can govern itself --- or it cannot. Neither the US or Israel stops the ability of the Arab-Palestinian from completing the intermediate steps preparatory to independence in a self-governing way. She outlined them, but clearly put the lack of progress on the Arab-Palestinian Leadership. Remember, they declared independence in 1988; a quarter century ago and they still haven't made the necessary progress.

Professor Eracat make three observations on the issue of the Oslo Accords that she finds objectionable. Remembering of course, that the Oslo Accords are a binding agreement between the two parties (Israel and the PLO), and that the PLO is the sole representative of the Palestinian People.

The three observations:

She points out that the Oslo Accords do not reference International Law. The accords are a product of pure negotiations. As I pointed out in this forum many time, the Settlements are a outcropping of the Accords; agreed upon by both parties. And she admits that in the face of the agreement, which is consensual, Israel is in compliance.

She points out that the process for the furtherance of peace, the negotiation is bi-lateral; with the aid of a mediator (in this case - the US). Her position is that the US is not an honest broker in the affair. She wants the US to continue aid to Palestine, yet give-up its interest in the peace negotiation process in favor of Brazil or Turkey. And she readily admits that both the parties (Israel and Palestine) are either "unwilling or unable" (her words) to pursue the peace process.

Finally, she objects to the Oslo Accords because it puts Israeli security in a priority above the Human Rights of Palestinians; the condition that withdrawal is contingent upon the establishment of a "zero threat" from the Palestinians. This is a chicken and egg argument; which comes first. And while she promotes Human Rights Laws, she readily admits that it is highly unlikely that a "zero threat condition" can be achieved. Yet she still demands that Israel should give-up its security separation, the containment, and quarantine of the threat merely for the sake of Palestinian Human Rights and the associated threat she says is unlikely to be achieved. (What sense does that make.)​

She admits that the Palestinians readily agreed to the settlement arrangement in lieu of aid and compensation. She agrees that Israel is in compliance and not in violation of either the Geneva Convention or the Rome Statues because they the Palestinians agreed to it. She considers it a reasonable assumption that a zero threat cannot be achieved.

OK, where is the actual complaint?

The complaint is with the Palestinian Leadership. If the US is viewed as the dishonest broker, then it is quite clear the the Arab Palestinian is the belligerent and hostile obstructionist to the furtherance of peace (opposing the zero threat option); one of the major causes for the continued occupation.

Where's the beef???

Most Respectfully,
R
 
I will try to post more elaborate response next week. For now I would simply say that the problem with the deal is that, even assuming it was the best deal the Palestinians could have gotten (which I very much doubt) it still was/is not adequate to address the aims of the Palestinians, and accordingly it does not have a broad base of support that would allow the PA to move forward with steps toward statehood. The very limited scope of autonomy accorded to Palestine has led Palestinians to see the Oslo accord as a capitulation and has cost both Israel and PLO their credibility. Many Palestinians, as one of the speakers in the video on resistance in the West Bank said, "are beginning to see (the PA) as the enemy.". Through Israel placing its own paranoiac need for "security" paramount, the Palestinians have always been able to see that their own autonomy is held secondary or even tertiary.

Will try to write more, thank you for a thought provoking comment to Ms. Erekat's equally provocative talk.
 
Through Israel placing its own paranoiac need for "security" paramount, the Palestinians have always been able to see that their own autonomy is held secondary or even tertiary.

Wow! A nation valuing it's own security over another nations!
Those Jew bastards!
 
RFoccoR said:
She admits that the Palestinians readily agreed to the settlement arrangement in lieu of aid and compensation.
The problem I see here is that Arafat was placed in power and paid money by foreign powers to be the head of the Palestinians.

Article 50

CORRUPTION OF A REPRESENTATIVE OF A STATE

If the expression of a State's consent to be bound by a treaty has been procured through the corruption of its representative directly or indirectly by another negotiating State, the State may invoke such corruption as invalidating its consent to be bound by the treaty.

She agrees that Israel is in compliance and not in violation of either the Geneva Convention or the Rome Statues because they the Palestinians agreed to it. She considers it a reasonable assumption that a zero threat cannot be achieved.

You misquoted her. She said that Israel is not violating the terms of Oslo.

There is another problem with Oslo. If the terms do not comply with international law it is void.

Article 53

TREATIES CONFLICTING WITH A PEREMPTORY NORM OF GENERAL INTERNATIONAL LAW ("JUS COGENS")

A treaty is void if, at the time of its conclusion, it conflicts with a peremptory norm of general international law.

Source for quotes
https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume 1155/volume-1155-I-18232-English.pdf
 
And so obviously, Tinmore, you believe that Palestinians should seek to have the Oslo agreement voided.
 
I should also say that the most recent Ilan Pappe video I posted (at the Audtralian National Press Club) addresses this issue.
 
15th post
P F Tinmore; et al,

This is pure BS.

RoccoR said:
She admits that the Palestinians readily agreed to the settlement arrangement in lieu of aid and compensation.
The problem I see here is that Arafat was placed in power and paid money by foreign powers to be the head of the Palestinians.

Article 50

CORRUPTION OF A REPRESENTATIVE OF A STATE

If the expression of a State's consent to be bound by a treaty has been procured through the corruption of its representative directly or indirectly by another negotiating State, the State may invoke such corruption as invalidating its consent to be bound by the treaty.

She agrees that Israel is in compliance and not in violation of either the Geneva Convention or the Rome Statues because they the Palestinians agreed to it. She considers it a reasonable assumption that a zero threat cannot be achieved.

You misquoted her. She said that Israel is not violating the terms of Oslo.

There is another problem with Oslo. If the terms do not comply with international law it is void.

Article 53

TREATIES CONFLICTING WITH A PEREMPTORY NORM OF GENERAL INTERNATIONAL LAW ("JUS COGENS")

A treaty is void if, at the time of its conclusion, it conflicts with a peremptory norm of general international law.

Source for quotes
https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume 1155/volume-1155-I-18232-English.pdf
(COMMENT)

The law does not prohibit the Palestinians from granting land usage. The Oslo Accords are not a violation of law.

Article 49 of the Geneva Code speaks to nonconsensual actions; as does the Article 8 of the Rome Statutes. In this case, the Israelis have the permission by the Accords to take the action. It is not "nonconsensual" - but under the authority of the Palestine Liberation Organization which is the sole representative of the Palestinian People.

In fact, that was her point.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
I will try to post more elaborate response next week. For now I would simply say that the problem with the deal is that, even assuming it was the best deal the Palestinians could have gotten (which I very much doubt) it still was/is not adequate to address the aims of the Palestinians, and accordingly it does not have a broad base of support that would allow the PA to move forward with steps toward statehood. The very limited scope of autonomy accorded to Palestine has led Palestinians to see the Oslo accord as a capitulation and has cost both Israel and PLO their credibility. Many Palestinians, as one of the speakers in the video on resistance in the West Bank said, "are beginning to see (the PA) as the enemy.". Through Israel placing its own paranoiac need for "security" paramount, the Palestinians have always been able to see that their own autonomy is held secondary or even tertiary.

Will try to write more, thank you for a thought provoking comment to Ms. Erekat's equally provocative talk.

So in the 21 years since Oslo 1 and the 19 years since Oslo 2 the Palestinians have lost faith in their internationally recognized representative. That is likely a function, as Erekat notes, of the PA's failure to form a functioning gov't and the subsequent lack of a viable peace dividend.
I would add that Palestinian faith in Hamas has also waned as they too have failed to lead.
What bothers me is the not just the opportunity for peace squandered since Oslo but the very real possibility that no peace process - without a sea change of ideas and leadership - can succeed and that there is none in the foreseeable future.
 
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P F Tinmore; et al,

This is pure BS.

RoccoR said:
She admits that the Palestinians readily agreed to the settlement arrangement in lieu of aid and compensation.
The problem I see here is that Arafat was placed in power and paid money by foreign powers to be the head of the Palestinians.




You misquoted her. She said that Israel is not violating the terms of Oslo.

There is another problem with Oslo. If the terms do not comply with international law it is void.

Article 53

TREATIES CONFLICTING WITH A PEREMPTORY NORM OF GENERAL INTERNATIONAL LAW ("JUS COGENS")

A treaty is void if, at the time of its conclusion, it conflicts with a peremptory norm of general international law.

Source for quotes
https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume 1155/volume-1155-I-18232-English.pdf
(COMMENT)

The law does not prohibit the Palestinians from granting land usage. The Oslo Accords are not a violation of law.

Article 49 of the Geneva Code speaks to nonconsensual actions; as does the Article 8 of the Rome Statutes. In this case, the Israelis have the permission by the Accords to take the action. It is not "nonconsensual" - but under the authority of the Palestine Liberation Organization which is the sole representative of the Palestinian People.

In fact, that was her point.

Most Respectfully,
R

A treaty cannot authorize Israel to violate the law.
 
P F Tinmore; et al,

This is pure BS.

The problem I see here is that Arafat was placed in power and paid money by foreign powers to be the head of the Palestinians.


You misquoted her. She said that Israel is not violating the terms of Oslo.

There is another problem with Oslo. If the terms do not comply with international law it is void.


Source for quotes
https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume 1155/volume-1155-I-18232-English.pdf
(COMMENT)

The law does not prohibit the Palestinians from granting land usage. The Oslo Accords are not a violation of law.

Article 49 of the Geneva Code speaks to nonconsensual actions; as does the Article 8 of the Rome Statutes. In this case, the Israelis have the permission by the Accords to take the action. It is not "nonconsensual" - but under the authority of the Palestine Liberation Organization which is the sole representative of the Palestinian People.

In fact, that was her point.

Most Respectfully,
R

A treaty cannot authorize Israel to violate the law.

Oslo Accords are not a treaty but rather a series of agreements. The diff is legally significant.
The failure of anyone to successfully challenge their legality in more than 20 years of existence proves their legitimacy..
Their failure in practice renders your argument moot.
 
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