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P F Tinmore
Okay, so stop. First you said that the Oslo Accords violated "the law of treaties" and "the rules of occupation".
Then you said that the Oslo Accords violated universal human rights.
Then you said that the Oslo Accords violated the rights to self-determination, independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity.
And NOW you are trying to argue that treaties are invalid when they make peace agreements for such things as borders, citizenship, security, relations with neighbors and other issues of common interest.
Pick a goal post, dude. And plant it. And keep it where you planted it.
I believe that the Geneva Conventions state that while under occupation, any agreements made by the occupied people and their leadership, with the occupier are not valid. Petain's agreements with the Nazis, for example, were not considered valid. A belligerent occupation must end before agreements between the former occupier and the occupied have validity. This is logical in that an occupied people may subject to agreeing to conditions that go against their interests and in favor of the occupier.
I would like to see a link to that clause.
The Oslo Accords were never a treaty, just a declaration of principles setting up a groundwork that would eventually lead to a treaty."Oslo is not a legal agreement. It goes against the law of treaties and the rules of belligerent occupation."
The above statement was claimed on another thread.
The context is that since there is an existing treaty between the PA and Israel, there is no occupation. An occupation, by definition, is military control of another sovereign's territory, without the permission of the offended party. A treaty, by definition, is a mutual agreement over the conditions which apply in the territory. Thus the existence of a treaty, of itself, ends the occupation.
Of course, either party can be in violation of a treaty. BUT that was not the claim above. The claim above is that the treat is not valid. How so?
Israel controls travel, trade, and tourism. Israel controls water. Israel controls economic development. Israel controls where people can live and visit. Israel denies access to or destroys necessities of life like food water and shelter.Where does Oslo deny any of those rights to Palestinians?
Oslo provides for self-determination, without external interference. It provides for independence. It grants sovereignty. It provides for territorial integrity both now and in a future agreement.
Where is this denial of rights?
And more.
Where do the Palestinians have self determination without external interference?
Where do the Palestinians have independence and sovereignty?
Where do the Palestinians have the right to territorial integrity?
A few excerpts (emphasis mine):
The Government of the State of Israel and the PLO team (in the JordanianPalestinian delegation to the Middle East Peace Conference) (the "Palestinian Delegation"), representing the Palestinian people, agree that it is time to put an end to decades of confrontation and conflict, recognise their mutual legitimate and political rights, and strive to live in peaceful coexistence and mutual dignity and security and achieve a just, lasting and comprehensive peace settlement and historic reconciliation through the agreed political process. Accordingly, the two sides agree to the following principles:
In order that the Palestinian people in the West Bank and Gaza Strip may govern themselves ...
These elections will constitute a significant interim preparatory step toward the realisation of the legitimate rights of the Palestinian people and their just requirements.
Jurisdiction of the Council will cover West Bank and Gaza Strip territory, except for issues that will be negotiated in the permanent status negotiations.
It is understood that these negotiations shall cover remaining issues, including: Jerusalem, refugees, settlements, security arrangements, borders, relations and co-operation with other neighbours, and other issues of common interest.
Upon the entry into force of this Declaration of Principles and the withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and the Jericho area, a transfer of authority from the Israeli military government and its Civil Administration to the authorised Palestinians for this task, as detailed herein, will commence.
with the view to promoting economic development in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, authority will be transferred to the Palestinians in the following spheres: education and culture, health, social welfare, direct taxation and tourism. The Palestinian side will commence in building the Palestinian police force, as agreed upon. Pending the inauguration of the Council, the two parties may negotiate the transfer of additional powers and responsibilities, as agreed upon.
the transfer of powers and responsibilities from the Israeli military government and its Civil Administration to the Council. The Interim Agreement shall also specify the Council's executive authority, legislative authority in accordance with Article IX below, and the independent Palestinian judicial organs.
In order to enable the Council to promote economic growth, upon its inauguration, the Council will establish, among other things, a Palestinian Electricity Authority, a Gaza Sea Port Authority, a Palestinian Development Bank, a Palestinian Export Promotion Board, a Palestinian Environmental Authority, a Palestinian Land Authority and a Palestinian Water Administration Authority and any other Authorities agreed upon, in accordance with the Interim Agreement, that will specify their powers and responsibilities.
And that is just the Declaration of Principles. I could go on. I stopped only in an effort to keep the size of the post down. The entire document(s) demonstrate a clear intent to transfer power from one government to another being formed in order to bring fulfillment to the premise of the agreement -- a peaceful settlement where the rights of both peoples to self-determination, independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity is brought about.
Further, there is absolutely nothing in the document which invalidates the Palestinian people from obtaining SD, I, S and TI. Your premise is completely false.It is understood that these negotiations shall cover remaining issues, including: Jerusalem, refugees, settlements, security arrangements, borders, relations and co-operation with other neighbours, and other issues of common interest.
That is my point. Those are non negotiable items.
Because the 1949 UN Armistice Agreements divided Palestine into three areas of occupation.Where do the Palestinians have self determination without external interference?
Where do the Palestinians have independence and sovereignty?
Where do the Palestinians have the right to territorial integrity?
A few excerpts (emphasis mine):
The Government of the State of Israel and the PLO team (in the JordanianPalestinian delegation to the Middle East Peace Conference) (the "Palestinian Delegation"), representing the Palestinian people, agree that it is time to put an end to decades of confrontation and conflict, recognise their mutual legitimate and political rights, and strive to live in peaceful coexistence and mutual dignity and security and achieve a just, lasting and comprehensive peace settlement and historic reconciliation through the agreed political process. Accordingly, the two sides agree to the following principles:
In order that the Palestinian people in the West Bank and Gaza Strip may govern themselves ...
These elections will constitute a significant interim preparatory step toward the realisation of the legitimate rights of the Palestinian people and their just requirements.
Jurisdiction of the Council will cover West Bank and Gaza Strip territory, except for issues that will be negotiated in the permanent status negotiations.
It is understood that these negotiations shall cover remaining issues, including: Jerusalem, refugees, settlements, security arrangements, borders, relations and co-operation with other neighbours, and other issues of common interest.
Upon the entry into force of this Declaration of Principles and the withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and the Jericho area, a transfer of authority from the Israeli military government and its Civil Administration to the authorised Palestinians for this task, as detailed herein, will commence.
with the view to promoting economic development in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, authority will be transferred to the Palestinians in the following spheres: education and culture, health, social welfare, direct taxation and tourism. The Palestinian side will commence in building the Palestinian police force, as agreed upon. Pending the inauguration of the Council, the two parties may negotiate the transfer of additional powers and responsibilities, as agreed upon.
the transfer of powers and responsibilities from the Israeli military government and its Civil Administration to the Council. The Interim Agreement shall also specify the Council's executive authority, legislative authority in accordance with Article IX below, and the independent Palestinian judicial organs.
In order to enable the Council to promote economic growth, upon its inauguration, the Council will establish, among other things, a Palestinian Electricity Authority, a Gaza Sea Port Authority, a Palestinian Development Bank, a Palestinian Export Promotion Board, a Palestinian Environmental Authority, a Palestinian Land Authority and a Palestinian Water Administration Authority and any other Authorities agreed upon, in accordance with the Interim Agreement, that will specify their powers and responsibilities.
And that is just the Declaration of Principles. I could go on. I stopped only in an effort to keep the size of the post down. The entire document(s) demonstrate a clear intent to transfer power from one government to another being formed in order to bring fulfillment to the premise of the agreement -- a peaceful settlement where the rights of both peoples to self-determination, independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity is brought about.
Further, there is absolutely nothing in the document which invalidates the Palestinian people from obtaining SD, I, S and TI. Your premise is completely false.It is understood that these negotiations shall cover remaining issues, including: Jerusalem, refugees, settlements, security arrangements, borders, relations and co-operation with other neighbours, and other issues of common interest.
That is my point. Those are non negotiable items.
Which is why there will NEVER be the " two State Solution" which would eventually result in a Palestinian majority. Let them keep refusing to come to the table. Why was " Palestine" occupied by Jordan and Egypt before 1967?
Off topic. This is not about Jordan or Egypt.Israel controls travel, trade, and tourism. Israel controls water. Israel controls economic development. Israel controls where people can live and visit. Israel denies access to or destroys necessities of life like food water and shelter.Where does Oslo deny any of those rights to Palestinians?
Oslo provides for self-determination, without external interference. It provides for independence. It grants sovereignty. It provides for territorial integrity both now and in a future agreement.
Where is this denial of rights?
And more.
Now, THAT is funny! That sounds what Jorden did after 1948 forbidding Israel into E. Jerusalem to visit their Holy Sites; something they were supposed to do under " International Law" or when Egypt ordered the UN out and blocked the Straits of Tiran! You should go on the road with your act.
Off topic. This is not about Jordan or Egypt.Israel controls travel, trade, and tourism. Israel controls water. Israel controls economic development. Israel controls where people can live and visit. Israel denies access to or destroys necessities of life like food water and shelter.Where does Oslo deny any of those rights to Palestinians?
Oslo provides for self-determination, without external interference. It provides for independence. It grants sovereignty. It provides for territorial integrity both now and in a future agreement.
Where is this denial of rights?
And more.
Now, THAT is funny! That sounds what Jorden did after 1948 forbidding Israel into E. Jerusalem to visit their Holy Sites; something they were supposed to do under " International Law" or when Egypt ordered the UN out and blocked the Straits of Tiran! You should go on the road with your act.
I have always been "across the board" on international law and human rights.Off topic. This is not about Jordan or Egypt.Israel controls travel, trade, and tourism. Israel controls water. Israel controls economic development. Israel controls where people can live and visit. Israel denies access to or destroys necessities of life like food water and shelter.Where does Oslo deny any of those rights to Palestinians?
Oslo provides for self-determination, without external interference. It provides for independence. It grants sovereignty. It provides for territorial integrity both now and in a future agreement.
Where is this denial of rights?
And more.
Now, THAT is funny! That sounds what Jorden did after 1948 forbidding Israel into E. Jerusalem to visit their Holy Sites; something they were supposed to do under " International Law" or when Egypt ordered the UN out and blocked the Straits of Tiran! You should go on the road with your act.
Don't want to discuss the facts? Too bad! The " Human Rights" you are referring to also apply to the JEWISH people ! " International Law" SHOULD appliy to EVERYBODY ; not just the ones YOU think it should.
The Palestinians cannot be held responsible for what other countries do.Off topic. This is not about Jordan or Egypt.Israel controls travel, trade, and tourism. Israel controls water. Israel controls economic development. Israel controls where people can live and visit. Israel denies access to or destroys necessities of life like food water and shelter.Where does Oslo deny any of those rights to Palestinians?
Oslo provides for self-determination, without external interference. It provides for independence. It grants sovereignty. It provides for territorial integrity both now and in a future agreement.
Where is this denial of rights?
And more.
Now, THAT is funny! That sounds what Jorden did after 1948 forbidding Israel into E. Jerusalem to visit their Holy Sites; something they were supposed to do under " International Law" or when Egypt ordered the UN out and blocked the Straits of Tiran! You should go on the road with your act.
Don't want to discuss the facts? Too bad! The " Human Rights" you are referring to also apply to the JEWISH people ! " International Law" SHOULD appliy to EVERYBODY ; not just the ones YOU think it should.
I have always been "across the board" on international law and human rights.Off topic. This is not about Jordan or Egypt.Israel controls travel, trade, and tourism. Israel controls water. Israel controls economic development. Israel controls where people can live and visit. Israel denies access to or destroys necessities of life like food water and shelter.Where does Oslo deny any of those rights to Palestinians?
Oslo provides for self-determination, without external interference. It provides for independence. It grants sovereignty. It provides for territorial integrity both now and in a future agreement.
Where is this denial of rights?
And more.
Now, THAT is funny! That sounds what Jorden did after 1948 forbidding Israel into E. Jerusalem to visit their Holy Sites; something they were supposed to do under " International Law" or when Egypt ordered the UN out and blocked the Straits of Tiran! You should go on the road with your act.
Don't want to discuss the facts? Too bad! The " Human Rights" you are referring to also apply to the JEWISH people ! " International Law" SHOULD appliy to EVERYBODY ; not just the ones YOU think it should.
The Palestinians cannot be held responsible for what other countries do.Off topic. This is not about Jordan or Egypt.Israel controls travel, trade, and tourism. Israel controls water. Israel controls economic development. Israel controls where people can live and visit. Israel denies access to or destroys necessities of life like food water and shelter.Where does Oslo deny any of those rights to Palestinians?
Oslo provides for self-determination, without external interference. It provides for independence. It grants sovereignty. It provides for territorial integrity both now and in a future agreement.
Where is this denial of rights?
And more.
Now, THAT is funny! That sounds what Jorden did after 1948 forbidding Israel into E. Jerusalem to visit their Holy Sites; something they were supposed to do under " International Law" or when Egypt ordered the UN out and blocked the Straits of Tiran! You should go on the road with your act.
Don't want to discuss the facts? Too bad! The " Human Rights" you are referring to also apply to the JEWISH people ! " International Law" SHOULD appliy to EVERYBODY ; not just the ones YOU think it should.
I have always been "across the board" on international law and human rights.Off topic. This is not about Jordan or Egypt.Israel controls travel, trade, and tourism. Israel controls water. Israel controls economic development. Israel controls where people can live and visit. Israel denies access to or destroys necessities of life like food water and shelter.Where does Oslo deny any of those rights to Palestinians?
Oslo provides for self-determination, without external interference. It provides for independence. It grants sovereignty. It provides for territorial integrity both now and in a future agreement.
Where is this denial of rights?
And more.
Now, THAT is funny! That sounds what Jorden did after 1948 forbidding Israel into E. Jerusalem to visit their Holy Sites; something they were supposed to do under " International Law" or when Egypt ordered the UN out and blocked the Straits of Tiran! You should go on the road with your act.
Don't want to discuss the facts? Too bad! The " Human Rights" you are referring to also apply to the JEWISH people ! " International Law" SHOULD appliy to EVERYBODY ; not just the ones YOU think it should.
Oh really?I have always been "across the board" on international law and human rights.Off topic. This is not about Jordan or Egypt.Israel controls travel, trade, and tourism. Israel controls water. Israel controls economic development. Israel controls where people can live and visit. Israel denies access to or destroys necessities of life like food water and shelter.
And more.
Now, THAT is funny! That sounds what Jorden did after 1948 forbidding Israel into E. Jerusalem to visit their Holy Sites; something they were supposed to do under " International Law" or when Egypt ordered the UN out and blocked the Straits of Tiran! You should go on the road with your act.
Don't want to discuss the facts? Too bad! The " Human Rights" you are referring to also apply to the JEWISH people ! " International Law" SHOULD appliy to EVERYBODY ; not just the ones YOU think it should.
Yea, Right... That's why you refuse to acknowledge that the Arabs violated " International Law" prior to 1967. What a Joke.
Oh really?I have always been "across the board" on international law and human rights.Off topic. This is not about Jordan or Egypt.Now, THAT is funny! That sounds what Jorden did after 1948 forbidding Israel into E. Jerusalem to visit their Holy Sites; something they were supposed to do under " International Law" or when Egypt ordered the UN out and blocked the Straits of Tiran! You should go on the road with your act.
Don't want to discuss the facts? Too bad! The " Human Rights" you are referring to also apply to the JEWISH people ! " International Law" SHOULD appliy to EVERYBODY ; not just the ones YOU think it should.
Yea, Right... That's why you refuse to acknowledge that the Arabs violated " International Law" prior to 1967. What a Joke.
Links to what you refuse to acknowledge? Now, THAT is funny! Wait... You did acknowledge Egypt blocked the Straits of Tiran , told the UN to leave the " demilitarized zone" and Jordan denied Jews access into E. Jerusalem to visit their Holy Sites: Something they were mandated to do under the " peace agreement' You just said it was off topic! Too bad, but it's not .
Oh really?I have always been "across the board" on international law and human rights.Off topic. This is not about Jordan or Egypt.
Don't want to discuss the facts? Too bad! The " Human Rights" you are referring to also apply to the JEWISH people ! " International Law" SHOULD appliy to EVERYBODY ; not just the ones YOU think it should.
Yea, Right... That's why you refuse to acknowledge that the Arabs violated " International Law" prior to 1967. What a Joke.
Links to what you refuse to acknowledge? Now, THAT is funny! Wait... You did acknowledge Egypt blocked the Straits of Tiran , told the UN to leave the " demilitarized zone" and Jordan denied Jews access into E. Jerusalem to visit their Holy Sites: Something they were mandated to do under the " peace agreement' You just said it was off topic! Too bad, but it's not .
Oh really?I have always been "across the board" on international law and human rights.Off topic. This is not about Jordan or Egypt.Now, THAT is funny! That sounds what Jorden did after 1948 forbidding Israel into E. Jerusalem to visit their Holy Sites; something they were supposed to do under " International Law" or when Egypt ordered the UN out and blocked the Straits of Tiran! You should go on the road with your act.
Don't want to discuss the facts? Too bad! The " Human Rights" you are referring to also apply to the JEWISH people ! " International Law" SHOULD appliy to EVERYBODY ; not just the ones YOU think it should.
Yea, Right... That's why you refuse to acknowledge that the Arabs violated " International Law" prior to 1967. What a Joke.
Links?
You are either Stupid or a CretinOh really?I have always been "across the board" on international law and human rights.Off topic. This is not about Jordan or Egypt.
Don't want to discuss the facts? Too bad! The " Human Rights" you are referring to also apply to the JEWISH people ! " International Law" SHOULD appliy to EVERYBODY ; not just the ones YOU think it should.
Yea, Right... That's why you refuse to acknowledge that the Arabs violated " International Law" prior to 1967. What a Joke.
Links?
" Links "to what you deny? Wait, on this very topic a few posts back you acknowledge that Egypt violated " International Law" by sending away the UN troops and blocking the Strait of Tiran and Jordan did the same by refusing to allow the Israelis to visit their Holy Sites: something they were mandated to do under the " peace" agreement. However, you said it was " off topic" ( It isn't )
You are either Stupid or a CretinOh really?I have always been "across the board" on international law and human rights.Don't want to discuss the facts? Too bad! The " Human Rights" you are referring to also apply to the JEWISH people ! " International Law" SHOULD appliy to EVERYBODY ; not just the ones YOU think it should.
Yea, Right... That's why you refuse to acknowledge that the Arabs violated " International Law" prior to 1967. What a Joke.
Links?
" Links "to what you deny? Wait, on this very topic a few posts back you acknowledge that Egypt violated " International Law" by sending away the UN troops and blocking the Strait of Tiran and Jordan did the same by refusing to allow the Israelis to visit their Holy Sites: something they were mandated to do under the " peace" agreement. However, you said it was " off topic" ( It isn't )
Palestine didn't have anything to do with any of that.Oh really?I have always been "across the board" on international law and human rights.Off topic. This is not about Jordan or Egypt.
Don't want to discuss the facts? Too bad! The " Human Rights" you are referring to also apply to the JEWISH people ! " International Law" SHOULD appliy to EVERYBODY ; not just the ones YOU think it should.
Yea, Right... That's why you refuse to acknowledge that the Arabs violated " International Law" prior to 1967. What a Joke.
Links?
" Links "to what you deny? Wait, on this very topic a few posts back you acknowledge that Egypt violated " International Law" by sending away the UN troops and blocking the Strait of Tiran and Jordan did the same by refusing to allow the Israelis to visit their Holy Sites: something they were mandated to do under the " peace" agreement. However, you said it was " off topic" ( It isn't )
