Open to Judgement: UN complicity in 7th Oct. massacre

[Coyote]

That's a pretty dicey claim to equivalence.

Not really. Where exactly do you draw a line if you are making a claim that civilian deaths in war are or are not murder? It has the potential to justify some pretty horrendous things. (I’m not saying that what Hamas did on 10/7 was not murder and a war crime, it was)

 

[Billo_Really]

Let's say this is true. (It's not, as stated, but let's say.)

How does would a government and its army conduct a just war* and kill not a single non-combatant? What laws, policies, procedures, technology, intelligence, etc. would have to be in place in order to accomplish this extraordinary feat.

I'm not asking IF this is a just war, I'm putting out a hypothetical. Imagine whatever you need to imagine to get you to just war*. If it helps, reverse the players. How, then, would the "freedom fighters" of Gaza conduct a just war in which they killed not a single non-combatant?

**If you believe that NO war is just, that's fine. Just a different conversation. I'll approach that if it comes up.

Why are you arguing that it is okay to kill people who take no part in hostilities? Do I need to remind you, that under the laws of occupation, Israel is obligated to ensure their safety.

 

[Shusha]

Not really. Where exactly do you draw a line if you are making a claim that civilian deaths in war are or are not murder? It has the potential to justify some pretty horrendous things. (I’m not saying that what Hamas did on 10/7 was not murder and a war crime, it was)

Generally, I tend to start with international law, which is fairly comprehensive in its effort to protect people from war.

 

[Shusha]

Why are you arguing that it is okay to kill people who take no part in hostilities?

I'm not. And you know it. I'm asking HOW to prevent every single non-combatant death in a war zone. How would you accomplish this?

Do I need to remind you, that under the laws of occupation, Israel is obligated to ensure their safety.

The only way to ensure the safety of the non-combatants and civilians in Gaza is to apply Israeli sovereignty over Gaza. Are you down for that?

 

[Coyote]

Generally, I tend to start with international law, which is fairly comprehensive in its effort to protect people from war.

I tend view it through an ethical lens. For example, deliberately targeting civilians is unquestionably murder.

Bombing with little regard for civilians is questionable.

 

[Coyote]

I'm not. And you know it. I'm asking HOW to prevent every single non-combatant death in a war zone. How would you accomplish this?

The only way to ensure the safety of the non-combatants and civilians in Gaza is to apply Israeli sovereignty over Gaza. Are you down for that?

How would that ensure their safety?

 

[Shusha]

I tend view it through an ethical lens. For example, deliberately targeting civilians is unquestionably murder.

Bombing with little regard for civilians is questionable.

Humanitarian law is ethics framed as comprehensive instruction.

 

[Shusha]

How would that ensure their safety?

De-radicalization, elimination of terrorism (including Arab-Arab terrorism) to start. Then basic things, like clean water, stable electrical grid, trade of goods, and economic prosperity.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

That is a pretty dicey claim.

Palestinians have more or less been at war with Israel for some time. Hamas claims to be at war. Does that mean the civilians it murdered on October 7th weren’t murdered…because, well, war?

When does it become murder?

That is a pretty dicey claim.

Is it?

Are deaths during war always murder?

Maybe you should define murder?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Why are you arguing that it is okay to kill people who take no part in hostilities? Do I need to remind you, that under the laws of occupation, Israel is obligated to ensure their safety.

Ensure their safety how?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I tend view it through an ethical lens. For example, deliberately targeting civilians is unquestionably murder.

Bombing with little regard for civilians is questionable.

For example, deliberately targeting civilians is unquestionably murder.

Sounds like you answered your October 7th question.

Bombing with little regard for civilians is questionable.

I agree. Is that what Israel did?

 

[Billo_Really]

I'm not. And you know it. I'm asking HOW to prevent every single non-combatant death in a war zone. How would you accomplish this?

The only way to ensure the safety of the non-combatants and civilians in Gaza is to apply Israeli sovereignty over Gaza. Are you down for that?

As to your first question, don't use dumb bombs. As to your second, one of my suggestions to ending the occupation was to have Israeel take over all of the OPT and give full citizenship rights to the Palestinians with full freedom of movement. No Gaza blockade. No roadblocks and checkpoints in the WB and no martial law for the Palestinians.

 

[Billo_Really]

Ensure their safety how?

By not killing them.

 

[Coyote]

De-radicalization, elimination of terrorism (including Arab-Arab terrorism) to start. Then basic things, like clean water, stable electrical grid, trade of goods, and economic prosperity.

I don’t agree entirely here.

Will it be (as before) be dependent on Israel’s political desires: military occupation, unjust justice system, land seizure (assuming the current political coalition stays in place), no stated path to autonomy or a state, no full Israeli citizenship?

What do you envision here by applying Israeli sovereignty?

 

[Coyote]

For example, deliberately targeting civilians is unquestionably murder.

Sounds like you answered your October 7th question.

I had already answered it. Multiple times. What Hamas did is not in question.

Bombing with little regard for civilians is questionable.

I agree. Is that what Israel did?

In my opinion? Yes.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I had already answered it. Multiple times. What Hamas did is not in question.




In my opinion? Yes.

How many bombs did they drop?
How long has it gone on?
How many, according to Hamas, civilians have been killed?

 

[Shusha]

As to your first question, don't use dumb bombs. As to your second, one of my suggestions to ending the occupation was to have Israeel take over all of the OPT and give full citizenship rights to the Palestinians with full freedom of movement. No Gaza blockade. No roadblocks and checkpoints in the WB and no martial law for the Palestinians.

I think many people are using the terminology "dumb bombs" to mean "indiscriminate bombing" and those two should not be confused. To my understanding, and I am not a military expert, "dumb bombs" are guided, just with GPS and real humans making decisions. No, they are not as precise as other munitions, but they are relatively accurate and targets are assessed prior to implementation. I've also read that Israel is using far fewer of these than is reported generally.

For your second, I think that is inevitably where we are headed. It will take some time to get there. Israel won't be opening the Gaza doors wide anytime soon. But eventually.

 

[Shusha]

In my opinion? Yes.

What further steps, do you think, Israel should take?

 

[gipper]

How many bombs did they drop?
How long has it gone on?
How many, according to Hamas, civilians have been killed?

Genocide Todd…

 

[Shusha]

I don’t agree entirely here.

Will it be (as before) be dependent on Israel’s political desires: military occupation, unjust justice system, land seizure (assuming the current political coalition stays in place), no stated path to autonomy or a state, no full Israeli citizenship?

What do you envision here by applying Israeli sovereignty?

Was Bibi not loud enough? There will be no State of Palestine in the foreseeable future. Likely never.

Beyond that, well, I'm best guessing here. Military occupation during the rebuild phase. Possibly with the option of voluntary emigration (I mean, actually, truly voluntary). I can't see how that can be helped.

There will be no occupation, since it will be Israel.

Eventually, once we have a couple of generations of de-radicalized children brought up in an ethical school system, there might be a chance for Gaza, and probably the West Bank too, to be run semi-independently under a provincial system. That would be my suggestion.