Ohio about to break unions; Bill passes house!

[M14 Shooter]

well, job security? seniority? the DEFINED pension plan? the forever medical benefits? much more time off?

surprisingly....the teachers pay 100% of their own defined pension plan, i read in an article last night, which really surprised me....let me see if i can find it again to confirm...

Not in OH. ~45% employee ~55% employer.

 

[Sarah G]

Well, it really didn't "pass", it was manipulated to look like passage.

Even then, it was only "passed" by one slimey tool. Kasich should be so proud...

 

[Care4all]

surprisingly....the teachers pay 100% of their own defined pension plan, i read in an article last night, which really surprised me....let me see if i can find it again to confirm...

Not in OH. ~45% employee ~55% employer.

THAT'S still an awful lot, compared to the private sector contributions for a defined benefit plan. I didn't pay a penny towards my retired benefit plan with the corporations I worked for....not a dime.

and also, did the ohio teachers give up present salary in negotiations over the years so that they did have the retirement benefit? They could be paying 100% of it as well....

 

[Trajan]

Not in OH. ~45% employee ~55% employer.

THAT'S still an awful lot, compared to the private sector contributions for a defined benefit plan. I didn't pay a penny towards my retired benefit plan with the corporations I worked for....not a dime.

and also, did the ohio teachers give up present salary in negotiations over the years so that they did have the retirement benefit? They could be paying 100% of it as well....

I saw an artile a few weeks ago that says they pay.2,% as part of their retirement burden, walker has asked for , what 5.5 to 6%/ so I an not sure , can you find a link to their contributions...

just as a FYI, I pay 2%.


and heres an interesting article speaking to the pay issues......

Wisconsin Teacher Unions | Teachers Payed Higher Than Average Wisconsin | The Daily Caller - Breaking News, Opinion, Research, and Entertainment

 

[mnbasketball]

Looks like Ohio may beat Wisconsin to the punch, as the Ohio Dems are man enough to show up and live up to their possible defeat rather than running like children.

Last night on the news, they said the Ohio bill was even worse for unions than the Wisconsin bill.

The Ohio bill passed the house, and is in the Republican controlled Senate, then to the Republican governor.

Games up boys. Unions are gonna slowly be dismantled. The massive influx of cash from unions to Democrat candidates will be severely cut off from these union break ups. Combined with the SCOTUS decision to allow corporations their freedom of speech to give to candidates, this spells doom for a lot of Democrats in future elections.

well if you think this is a good thing then you must be in that top 20% of the population, because all that getting rid of unions will do is enhance the race to the bottom. It's been shown that it's directly related in the drop of wealth to the middle income population to the demise of the unions. While at the same time the top 20% has grown and grown.

So if you make 50 hr or better you should be happy for a while as you help these caring folks at the top dismantle the middle class, but don't get to wild about it, because the next bulls eye will be those who make over 100.00 an hr.

 

[mnbasketball]

I saw an artile a few weeks ago that says they pay.2,% as part of their retirement burden, walker has asked for , what 5.5 to 6%/ so I an not sure , can you find a link to their contributions...

just as a FYI, I pay 2%

Where do people get this they pay 2% of their pensions from. If you know anything about contracts you choose where your money goes to, and these people have chosen to have this % of thier pay go to funding their pensions. It's their money that the company is using, this isn't some gift.

Because the state didn't put the money away like they should have they have now created a bigger burden on themselves that they want the teachers to make up.

The Health ins is a problem in our country but it's not because of those who get it, its because of what people are being charged for it, twice what any other developed county is charged, now why is that?

 

[mnbasketball]

That decline in union power made possible and was increased by both outsourcing at home and the movement of production to developing countries, which were facilitated by the break-up of the New Deal coalition and the rise of the New Right (Domhoff, 1990, Chapter 10). It signals the shift of the United States from a high-wage to a low-wage economy, with professionals protected by the fact that foreign-trained doctors and lawyers aren't allowed to compete with their American counterparts in the direct way that low-wage foreign-born workers are.

 

[Trajan]

well, job security? seniority? the DEFINED pension plan? the forever medical benefits? much more time off?

surprisingly....the teachers pay 100% of their own defined pension plan, i read in an article last night, which really surprised me....let me see if i can find it again to confirm...

you mean this?

Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin' s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers.

How can that be? Because the "contributions" consist of money that employees chose to take as deferred wages – as pensions when they retire – rather than take immediately in cash. The same is true with the health care plan. If this were not so a serious crime would be taking place, the gift of public funds rather than payment for services.

tax.com: Really Bad Reporting in Wisconsin: Who 'Contributes' to Public Workers' Pensions?

this is a HUGE stretch.

job security how?

one of the greatest returns on civil service employment is job security...

there is job security in the private sector as well....my last couple of jobs i had contracts with my employers...if something were to happen and i was let go, that was covered in the contract....in fact, my last job, laid off 650 people globally...my department was dissolved, they paid me for a year and paid my medical insurance too, for me and matt, due to being let go in the downsize, before my contract was up ....though the company got something out of the contract too....I was not allowed to work for one of their competitors during that period, nor could i disclose company secrets....

I would say that if you averaged it out, you'd see the balance of the stimulus went to to fund jobs in states via the civil service mechanism, match that against how many private sector folks have been laid off comparatively to public sector union employees...I don't know of a co. that received fed. funds via state funding to save a job...

seniority is alive and well in the private sector too?

it is? well, I have never seen a codified LIFO anywhere in a private firm I have worked for. ever. *shrugs*.

the starting salary for teachers in wisconsin is around 25k....at least from a chart/link provided on this thread....that isn't much money for a college grad...we hired managers of retail departments, 12 years ago, with or without a college education, for $28k!

my starting salary at my private co. was low too and 28k in wisc buys a lot more than 35k here in the bay area..

check that link I added on my last post back to you, I think its misleading personally to use the lowest bar. it is the TC total compensation that hs to be looked at, this is one of the major pints in all this.

wisconsin has one of the better school systems in our country too, if memory serves...

uhm, okay.

the teachers there agreed to the cuts the governor was asking for and on the increase of their contribution towards their health care BEFORE they went to protest, but that just wasn't good enough for this governor....

I could be sensitive on this, due to my older sister being a teacher....but i went my whole career making at least double and even triple of what she was paid as a teacher and she has more college education than I do! Granted, i worked longer hours than her, and i had to travel out of town for weeks at a time....but still!

it just appears to me that some people are just jealous or ranting on this for purely political reasons....

care

as a private employee who has had his taxes raised repeatedly , part of which goes to fund unions here in say cali. I don't think my experience is singular. if I have to kick in and get laid off and take a job at lower pay etc,. and pay higher taxes for a TC package for folks simply because they work , well for me? ....yes that has a effect and is in fact one of the reason my purchasing power shrinks via local and state taxes going up.

and let me say in full disclosure, I am IN a public sector union, I have no problem with any of this. I have seen it from the private side and understand just how jaded and abusive the system has become.

and a word on those defined panion plans; remember, they are completely free of market forces, IF the market tanks, their monthly pension pay outs stay exactly the same, you do realize what that alone is worth right? its HUGE.

In my private sector job my profit sharing pension was held by the co. ( as they all are) in market funds that take a hit, there fore my retirement funds takes hit as its held in the market.

 

[Care4all]

THAT'S still an awful lot, compared to the private sector contributions for a defined benefit plan. I didn't pay a penny towards my retired benefit plan with the corporations I worked for....not a dime.

and also, did the ohio teachers give up present salary in negotiations over the years so that they did have the retirement benefit? They could be paying 100% of it as well....

I saw an artile a few weeks ago that says they pay.2,% as part of their retirement burden, walker has asked for , what 5.5 to 6%/ so I an not sure , can you find a link to their contributions...

just as a FYI, I pay 2%.


and heres an interesting article speaking to the pay issues......

Wisconsin Teacher Unions | Teachers Payed Higher Than Average Wisconsin | The Daily Caller - Breaking News, Opinion, Research, and Entertainment

In previous negotitions, they turned down the pay raise the state was going to give and asked the state to put that pay raise in to their retirement benefits....the State JUMPED on the idea, because they did not have to increase their PRESENT day budgets and NOW they are RENEGING.....that's stinks to high heaven Trajan....

2% contribution is still not bad for a defined benefit plan....kudos for you!

edit

AND 50K FOR 20 years of working for one company or employer is piddly doo trajan....even with the benefits....

my benefits were more than 30k as well, as part of my COMPENSATION for the work I accomplished

 

[thereisnospoon]

well, job security? seniority? the DEFINED pension plan? the forever medical benefits? much more time off?

surprisingly....the teachers pay 100% of their own defined pension plan, i read in an article last night, which really surprised me....let me see if i can find it again to confirm...

job security how?

there is job security in the private sector as well....my last couple of jobs i had contracts with my employers...if something were to happen and i was let go, that was covered in the contract....in fact, my last job, laid off 650 people globally...my department was dissolved, they paid me for a year and paid my medical insurance too, for me and matt, due to being let go in the downsize, before my contract was up ....though the company got something out of the contract too....I was not allowed to work for one of their competitors during that period, nor could i disclose company secrets....

seniority is alive and well in the private sector too?

i will admit, my career lead me to only working for large corporations, so my view on this could be skewed....i haven't worked for a small business or even a medium sized business, so i am not quite in tune on what happens with their employees.

the starting salary for teachers in wisconsin is around 25k....at least from a chart/link provided on this thread....that isn't much money for a college grad...we hired managers of retail departments, 12 years ago, with or without a college education, for $28k!

wisconsin has one of the better school systems in our country too, if memory serves...

the teachers there agreed to the cuts the governor was asking for and on the increase of their contribution towards their health care BEFORE they went to protest, but that just wasn't good enough for this governor....

I could be sensitive on this, due to my older sister being a teacher....but i went my whole career making at least double and even triple of what she was paid as a teacher and she has more college education than I do! Granted, i worked longer hours than her, and i had to travel out of town for weeks at a time....but still!

it just appears to me that some people are just jealous or ranting on this for purely political reasons....

care

Yer kidding, right?
Unionized public workers contribute a very small percentage of their benefits and pensions. 100% my foot.
Do you really think there isn't a single problem with pay and benefits provided to public workers? Please.
i have to chuckle at posts such as yours....No links. No facts.
Don't ever try to slip a post like this in without thinking you'll be called on it....
Wisconsin public school employee pay for the 2009-2010 school year - JSOnline
click on statewide list of average teacher salaries. Then pay very close attention to the column marked "average fringe"...This is total average annual cost of each teacher's benefits and pensions.....Add salary to the average fringe and you get the total average compensation for a teacher in each district.
So please do not try to convince the board that WI teachers pay 100% of their pension costs. Because it just is not true.

 

[Care4all]

surprisingly....the teachers pay 100% of their own defined pension plan, i read in an article last night, which really surprised me....let me see if i can find it again to confirm...

job security how?

there is job security in the private sector as well....my last couple of jobs i had contracts with my employers...if something were to happen and i was let go, that was covered in the contract....in fact, my last job, laid off 650 people globally...my department was dissolved, they paid me for a year and paid my medical insurance too, for me and matt, due to being let go in the downsize, before my contract was up ....though the company got something out of the contract too....I was not allowed to work for one of their competitors during that period, nor could i disclose company secrets....

seniority is alive and well in the private sector too?

i will admit, my career lead me to only working for large corporations, so my view on this could be skewed....i haven't worked for a small business or even a medium sized business, so i am not quite in tune on what happens with their employees.

the starting salary for teachers in wisconsin is around 25k....at least from a chart/link provided on this thread....that isn't much money for a college grad...we hired managers of retail departments, 12 years ago, with or without a college education, for $28k!

wisconsin has one of the better school systems in our country too, if memory serves...

the teachers there agreed to the cuts the governor was asking for and on the increase of their contribution towards their health care BEFORE they went to protest, but that just wasn't good enough for this governor....

I could be sensitive on this, due to my older sister being a teacher....but i went my whole career making at least double and even triple of what she was paid as a teacher and she has more college education than I do! Granted, i worked longer hours than her, and i had to travel out of town for weeks at a time....but still!

it just appears to me that some people are just jealous or ranting on this for purely political reasons....

care

Yer kidding, right?
Unionized public workers contribute a very small percentage of their benefits and pensions. 100% my foot.
Do you really think there isn't a single problem with pay and benefits provided to public workers? Please.
i have to chuckle at posts such as yours....No links. No facts.
Don't ever try to slip a post like this in without thinking you'll be called on it....
Wisconsin public school employee pay for the 2009-2010 school year - JSOnline
click on statewide list of average teacher salaries. Then pay very close attention to the column marked "average fringe"...This is total average annual cost of each teacher's benefits and pensions.....Add salary to the average fringe and you get the total average compensation for a teacher in each district.
So please do not try to convince the board that WI teachers pay 100% of their pension costs. Because it just is not true.

uhhhh, the link to the 100% on wisconsin teaches retirement, was given right after my post....

Benefits cost a great deal for EVERY BUSINESS OWNER....if they give health care, match the 401 k, give vacation time or sick time, pay their portion of the person's SS, life insurance policy, disability....trust me....20-30k is about what it costs private employers for a 50k a year person....as well....especially since their health insurance benefit has gone UP SO MUCH the past decade....

and rising health insurance costs for companies IS NOT THE FAULT OF the employee, is it to you?

 

[thereisnospoon]

That decline in union power made possible and was increased by both outsourcing at home and the movement of production to developing countries, which were facilitated by the break-up of the New Deal coalition and the rise of the New Right (Domhoff, 1990, Chapter 10). It signals the shift of the United States from a high-wage to a low-wage economy, with professionals protected by the fact that foreign-trained doctors and lawyers aren't allowed to compete with their American counterparts in the direct way that low-wage foreign-born workers are.

No. decline in union power is self inflicted.
Union management has over the years refused to adjust.
The union mentality of all or nothing is what caused their downfall.
Unions were always supported by the notion that they had no competition. That workers union and non union would always support them in either their demands or politically. Unions simply priced themselves out of the marketplace.
Example....Continental-General Tire plant strike here...
The tire plant's labor costs became non-competitive and the plant was losing money. The company went to the union and told them the union had to make concessions or the plant would be closed. The union told the rank and file to hang in there. The union dug in it's heels and the plant had no choice but ot close the plant. Interesting point. The plant's employees were offered jobs at a non-union plant in a nearby state at nearly the same wage as the one here. The difference was the workers had to make larger contributions to their benefits and pensions. Some took the offer. Many did not. They got ZERO.
Now if the union had not been there 100% of the employees would have kept their jobs but at a somewhat lower pay scale.
Newsflash. Businesses do not operate to hire people. Nor is a job an entitlement.
Businesses operate to turn a profit for the owners/stockholders. BTW all unions are businesses.

 

[Trajan]

I saw an artile a few weeks ago that says they pay.2,% as part of their retirement burden, walker has asked for , what 5.5 to 6%/ so I an not sure , can you find a link to their contributions...

just as a FYI, I pay 2%.


and heres an interesting article speaking to the pay issues......

Wisconsin Teacher Unions | Teachers Payed Higher Than Average Wisconsin | The Daily Caller - Breaking News, Opinion, Research, and Entertainment
In previous negotitions, they turned down the pay raise the state was going to give and asked the state to put that pay raise in to their retirement benefits....the State JUMPED on the idea, because they did not have to increase their PRESENT day budgets and NOW they are RENEGING.....that's stinks to high heaven Trajan....

2% contribution is still not bad for a defined benefit plan....kudos for you!

well let me say that its going to 5% in the next 5 years incrementally...but wait! we also 'negotiated' a 5% raise every for the next 5 years.....that stinks CARE, you see what they did there right? Thats the problem...what was the real give back here?

AND 50K FOR 20 years of working for one company or employer is piddly doo trajan....even with the benefits....

well, my lady, let me say inho, 50k in wiscy aint bad, its above the national mean. and their TC is what? another 20K? How much do you think they should make?


Per the Department of Commerce, in 2009, the average personal income for all Wisconsin workers was $37,398.

my benefits were more than 30k as well, as part of my COMPENSATION for the work I accomplished

yup, and thats why I reeled off that homily for you ala security, defined pension plan, forever medical benefits etc etc ...*shrugs*.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Yer kidding, right?
Unionized public workers contribute a very small percentage of their benefits and pensions. 100% my foot.
Do you really think there isn't a single problem with pay and benefits provided to public workers? Please.
i have to chuckle at posts such as yours....No links. No facts.
Don't ever try to slip a post like this in without thinking you'll be called on it....
Wisconsin public school employee pay for the 2009-2010 school year - JSOnline
click on statewide list of average teacher salaries. Then pay very close attention to the column marked "average fringe"...This is total average annual cost of each teacher's benefits and pensions.....Add salary to the average fringe and you get the total average compensation for a teacher in each district.
So please do not try to convince the board that WI teachers pay 100% of their pension costs. Because it just is not true.

uhhhh, the link to the 100% on wisconsin teaches retirement, was given right after my post....

Benefits cost a great deal for EVERY BUSINESS OWNER....if they give health care, match the 401 k, give vacation time or sick time, pay their portion of the person's SS, life insurance policy, disability....trust me....20-30k is about what it costs private employers for a 50k a year person....as well....especially since their health insurance benefit has gone UP SO MUCH the past decade....

and rising health insurance costs for companies IS NOT THE FAULT OF the employee, is it to you?

Here's the rub. The pensions and benefits are coming from the pockets of a third party( taxpayers) that has NO SAY in the negotiations.
If a business discovers it's costs are rising, it acts accordingly. Is there a problem understanding this concept and the difference between public and private sector?
The employee is the one receiving the benefits. These are NOT an entitlement. Employers offer benefits as a means to attract employees. That's why it's called a benefit. Benefits are not etched in stone. Benefits are 100% cost to the employer. In this case that cost is borne almost entirely by the taxpayer.
There is no "fault"...The cold hard fact is that these benefits cost taxpayers tons of money. Money they no loner have to give.
No publicly paid worker should receive better benefits than those received by private sector workers. Benefits for public workers are not sacrosanct.

 

[Trajan]

Yer kidding, right?
Unionized public workers contribute a very small percentage of their benefits and pensions. 100% my foot.
Do you really think there isn't a single problem with pay and benefits provided to public workers? Please.
i have to chuckle at posts such as yours....No links. No facts.
Don't ever try to slip a post like this in without thinking you'll be called on it....
Wisconsin public school employee pay for the 2009-2010 school year - JSOnline
click on statewide list of average teacher salaries. Then pay very close attention to the column marked "average fringe"...This is total average annual cost of each teacher's benefits and pensions.....Add salary to the average fringe and you get the total average compensation for a teacher in each district.
So please do not try to convince the board that WI teachers pay 100% of their pension costs. Because it just is not true.

uhhhh, the link to the 100% on wisconsin teaches retirement, was given right after my post....

Benefits cost a great deal for EVERY BUSINESS OWNER....if they give health care, match the 401 k, give vacation time or sick time, pay their portion of the person's SS, life insurance policy, disability....trust me....20-30k is about what it costs private employers for a 50k a year person....as well....especially since their health insurance benefit has gone UP SO MUCH the past decade....

and rising health insurance costs for companies IS NOT THE FAULT OF the employee, is it to you?

there somehting wrong here with the quotes..they are all screwed up......I don't know how my name got affixed on that quoted link...

 

[Trajan]

uhhhh, the link to the 100% on wisconsin teaches retirement, was given right after my post....

Benefits cost a great deal for EVERY BUSINESS OWNER....if they give health care, match the 401 k, give vacation time or sick time, pay their portion of the person's SS, life insurance policy, disability....trust me....20-30k is about what it costs private employers for a 50k a year person....as well....especially since their health insurance benefit has gone UP SO MUCH the past decade....

and rising health insurance costs for companies IS NOT THE FAULT OF the employee, is it to you?

Here's the rub. The pensions and benefits are coming from the pockets of a third party( taxpayers) that has NO SAY in the negotiations.
If a business discovers it's costs are rising, it acts accordingly. Is there a problem understanding this concept and the difference between public and private sector?
The employee is the one receiving the benefits. These are NOT an entitlement. Employers offer benefits as a means to attract employees. That's why it's called a benefit. Benefits are not etched in stone. Benefits are 100% cost to the employer. In this case that cost is borne almost entirely by the taxpayer.
There is no "fault"...The cold hard fact is that these benefits cost taxpayers tons of money. Money they no loner have to give.
No publicly paid worker should receive better benefits than those received by private sector workers. Benefits for public workers are not sacrosanct.

exactly.....and all the parties know this ogiing in...


No offense but if you're looking to get rich or make private sector pay being a teacher should not be your first choice.


reson TV

private sector unions and private companies negotiate over dividing private profits, it is an adversarial relationship. Public sector unions negotiate with politicians who want their votes over how to divide money that belongs to the taxpayer. It's party1 and party2 agreeing on how to divide money from party3.

 

[Care4all]

Here's the rub. The pensions and benefits are coming from the pockets of a third party( taxpayers) that has NO SAY in the negotiations.
If a business discovers it's costs are rising, it acts accordingly. Is there a problem understanding this concept and the difference between public and private sector?
The employee is the one receiving the benefits. These are NOT an entitlement. Employers offer benefits as a means to attract employees. That's why it's called a benefit. Benefits are not etched in stone. Benefits are 100% cost to the employer. In this case that cost is borne almost entirely by the taxpayer.
There is no "fault"...The cold hard fact is that these benefits cost taxpayers tons of money. Money they no loner have to give.
No publicly paid worker should receive better benefits than those received by private sector workers. Benefits for public workers are not sacrosanct.

exactly.....and all the parties know this ogiing in...


No offense but if you're looking to get rich or make private sector pay being a teacher should not be your first choice.


reson TV

private sector unions and private companies negotiate over dividing private profits, it is an adversarial relationship. Public sector unions negotiate with politicians who want their votes over how to divide money that belongs to the taxpayer. It's party1 and party2 agreeing on how to divide money from party3.

i am not certain how union/state negotiations work....who actually participates...but i do know that paying educated public teachers equal to others in the private sector with the same educational level, is a necessity.

I am not saying the teachers should get paid more, but that they should be paid comparably to the private sector.

tax.com: Really Bad Reporting in Wisconsin: Who 'Contributes' to Public Workers' Pensions?

 

[Trajan]

exactly.....and all the parties know this ogiing in...


No offense but if you're looking to get rich or make private sector pay being a teacher should not be your first choice.


reson TV

private sector unions and private companies negotiate over dividing private profits, it is an adversarial relationship. Public sector unions negotiate with politicians who want their votes over how to divide money that belongs to the taxpayer. It's party1 and party2 agreeing on how to divide money from party3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je3UT7ol1JY&feature=player_embedded

i am not certain how union/state negotiations work....who actually participates...but i do know that paying educated public teachers equal to others in the private sector with the same educational level, is a necessity.

I am not saying the teachers should get paid more, but that they should be paid comparably to the private sector.

tax.com: Really Bad Reporting in Wisconsin: Who 'Contributes' to Public Workers' Pensions?

I saw that Care, I posted it for you earlier and I think hes making a huge hash of this.

I posted this below, which I find well, ridiculous....think it through, so they need what? a 20% bump in pay each year in exchange for forgoing the defined pension plan?

Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin' s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers.

How can that be? Because the "contributions" consist of money that employees chose to take as deferred wages – as pensions when they retire – rather than take immediately in cash. The same is true with the health care plan. If this were not so a serious crime would be taking place, the gift of public funds rather than payment for services.

 

[DiveCon]

I saw that Care, I posted it for you earlier and I think hes making a huge hash of this.

I posted this below, which I find well, ridiculous....think it through, so they need what? a 20% bump in pay each year in exchange for forgoing the defined pension plan?

Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin' s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers.

How can that be? Because the "contributions" consist of money that employees chose to take as deferred wages – as pensions when they retire – rather than take immediately in cash. The same is true with the health care plan. If this were not so a serious crime would be taking place, the gift of public funds rather than payment for services.

and that is the case with even private sector workers
everything is a part of the pay package

 

[The T]

I saw that Care, I posted it for you earlier and I think hes making a huge hash of this.

I posted this below, which I find well, ridiculous....think it through, so they need what? a 20% bump in pay each year in exchange for forgoing the defined pension plan?

Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin' s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers.

How can that be? Because the "contributions" consist of money that employees chose to take as deferred wages – as pensions when they retire – rather than take immediately in cash. The same is true with the health care plan. If this were not so a serious crime would be taking place, the gift of public funds rather than payment for services.

and that is the case with even private sector workers
everything is a part of the pay package

*Yep*