Now that the good guys are in charge, is it time to revisit the 14th amendment?

[Moonglow]

New wide-ranging analysis by the Center for Immigration Studies‘ Steven Camarotta reveals that there are an estimated 28,000 births to illegal aliens every year in the Los Angeles metro area, exceeding the total number of U.S. births in 14 states and the District of Columbia.

The children of illegal aliens are commonly known as “anchor babies,” as they anchor their illegal alien and noncitizen parents in the U.S. and eventually are allowed to bring an unlimited number of foreign relatives to the country through the process known as “chain migration.”

More Anchor Baby Births in Los Angeles than Total U.S. Births in 14 States

If you want to stop the flies from buzzing around you, close the pancake syrup container if you're going to sit outside.

For years the left has been telling us we don't need a wall, just a heavy fine or prison time for employers who hire illegals. Well I have to agree with that, but I also think that anchor babies are just as much of a problem. Come to the US, find a way to stay for a few months, and pop out a baby(s) so you have an excuse to have to be here.

Time for that to stop.

Everyone aside from trumpkin scum knows you aren’t the good guys.

Thanks for the laugh.

And while you’re at it go look up what it takes to amend the constitution.

Didn't you liberals tell us the Constitution is a living document; that it needs to change with the times?

Yes, we are the good guys. The left generally sides with evil and the right generally sides with the good.

The 14th was never written for anchor babies because there was no such thing as anchor babies at the time. There were no legal or illegal immigrants either. There were only citizens and non-citizens.

There has always been "illegal immigrants" in the US what makes you think when the borders really were open that no on entered at will illegally?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

um, no, I pointed out that you are more likely to be shot by angry white male than a middle easterner who was part of an elaborate plan.

And white isn't a race? Sorry, that is inserting race and you did it first. Do you think that only black, Hispanic or Asian are races (Yes, I know Hispanic is not a race)?

Now if you would have said likely to be shot by an American, and I responded with more likely being shot by a black, then I brought up race.

The man who police said opened fire at a yoga studio in Tallahassee, Florida, on Friday evening made numerous racist and misogynistic comments in YouTube videos posted in 2014, according to a report from The New York Times.

So whats that supposed to prove? Two can play that game:

CLEVELAND -- A man has been arrested after shooting a Cleveland Police officer and one other person early Saturday morning.

Police identified the suspected gunman as 30-year-old Jonathan A. Chambers.

Just after 4 a.m. a 5-year veteran officer was shot in the legs in the line of duty and suffered serious injuries. He was taken to University Hospitals for surgery. Cleveland police said he is in stable condition and is expected to make a full recovery.

Suspected gunman in Cleveland officer shooting identified, has lengthy criminal record

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

New wide-ranging analysis by the Center for Immigration Studies‘ Steven Camarotta reveals that there are an estimated 28,000 births to illegal aliens every year in the Los Angeles metro area, exceeding the total number of U.S. births in 14 states and the District of Columbia.

The children of illegal aliens are commonly known as “anchor babies,” as they anchor their illegal alien and noncitizen parents in the U.S. and eventually are allowed to bring an unlimited number of foreign relatives to the country through the process known as “chain migration.”

More Anchor Baby Births in Los Angeles than Total U.S. Births in 14 States

If you want to stop the flies from buzzing around you, close the pancake syrup container if you're going to sit outside.

For years the left has been telling us we don't need a wall, just a heavy fine or prison time for employers who hire illegals. Well I have to agree with that, but I also think that anchor babies are just as much of a problem. Come to the US, find a way to stay for a few months, and pop out a baby(s) so you have an excuse to have to be here.

Time for that to stop.

Everyone aside from trumpkin scum knows you aren’t the good guys.

Thanks for the laugh.

And while you’re at it go look up what it takes to amend the constitution.

Didn't you liberals tell us the Constitution is a living document; that it needs to change with the times?

Yes, we are the good guys. The left generally sides with evil and the right generally sides with the good.

The 14th was never written for anchor babies because there was no such thing as anchor babies at the time. There were no legal or illegal immigrants either. There were only citizens and non-citizens.

There has always been "illegal immigrants" in the US what makes you think when the borders really were open that no on entered at will illegally?

At the time we were an open borders country. In fact we wanted people to come here because we needed the labor as a new nation being built. Nobody was really illegal, however they were still non-citizens.

 

[Moonglow]

New wide-ranging analysis by the Center for Immigration Studies‘ Steven Camarotta reveals that there are an estimated 28,000 births to illegal aliens every year in the Los Angeles metro area, exceeding the total number of U.S. births in 14 states and the District of Columbia.

The children of illegal aliens are commonly known as “anchor babies,” as they anchor their illegal alien and noncitizen parents in the U.S. and eventually are allowed to bring an unlimited number of foreign relatives to the country through the process known as “chain migration.”

More Anchor Baby Births in Los Angeles than Total U.S. Births in 14 States

If you want to stop the flies from buzzing around you, close the pancake syrup container if you're going to sit outside.

For years the left has been telling us we don't need a wall, just a heavy fine or prison time for employers who hire illegals. Well I have to agree with that, but I also think that anchor babies are just as much of a problem. Come to the US, find a way to stay for a few months, and pop out a baby(s) so you have an excuse to have to be here.

Time for that to stop.

Everyone aside from trumpkin scum knows you aren’t the good guys.

Thanks for the laugh.

And while you’re at it go look up what it takes to amend the constitution.

Didn't you liberals tell us the Constitution is a living document; that it needs to change with the times?

Yes, we are the good guys. The left generally sides with evil and the right generally sides with the good.

The 14th was never written for anchor babies because there was no such thing as anchor babies at the time. There were no legal or illegal immigrants either. There were only citizens and non-citizens.

There has always been "illegal immigrants" in the US what makes you think when the borders really were open that no on entered at will illegally?

At the time we were an open borders country. In fact we wanted people to come here because we needed the labor as a new nation being built. Nobody was really illegal, however they were still non-citizens.

Again how the 14th was written does include all people in this nation legal and illegal.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

New wide-ranging analysis by the Center for Immigration Studies‘ Steven Camarotta reveals that there are an estimated 28,000 births to illegal aliens every year in the Los Angeles metro area, exceeding the total number of U.S. births in 14 states and the District of Columbia.

The children of illegal aliens are commonly known as “anchor babies,” as they anchor their illegal alien and noncitizen parents in the U.S. and eventually are allowed to bring an unlimited number of foreign relatives to the country through the process known as “chain migration.”

More Anchor Baby Births in Los Angeles than Total U.S. Births in 14 States

If you want to stop the flies from buzzing around you, close the pancake syrup container if you're going to sit outside.

For years the left has been telling us we don't need a wall, just a heavy fine or prison time for employers who hire illegals. Well I have to agree with that, but I also think that anchor babies are just as much of a problem. Come to the US, find a way to stay for a few months, and pop out a baby(s) so you have an excuse to have to be here.

Time for that to stop.

Everyone aside from trumpkin scum knows you aren’t the good guys.

Thanks for the laugh.

And while you’re at it go look up what it takes to amend the constitution.

Didn't you liberals tell us the Constitution is a living document; that it needs to change with the times?

Yes, we are the good guys. The left generally sides with evil and the right generally sides with the good.

The 14th was never written for anchor babies because there was no such thing as anchor babies at the time. There were no legal or illegal immigrants either. There were only citizens and non-citizens.

There has always been "illegal immigrants" in the US what makes you think when the borders really were open that no on entered at will illegally?

At the time we were an open borders country. In fact we wanted people to come here because we needed the labor as a new nation being built. Nobody was really illegal, however they were still non-citizens.

Again how the 14th was written does include all people in this nation legal and illegal.

The amendment was written for former slaves and their offspring. It had nothing to do with immigration. That's what needs to be decided by the courts.

 

[Moonglow]

Everyone aside from trumpkin scum knows you aren’t the good guys.

Thanks for the laugh.

And while you’re at it go look up what it takes to amend the constitution.

Didn't you liberals tell us the Constitution is a living document; that it needs to change with the times?

Yes, we are the good guys. The left generally sides with evil and the right generally sides with the good.

The 14th was never written for anchor babies because there was no such thing as anchor babies at the time. There were no legal or illegal immigrants either. There were only citizens and non-citizens.

There has always been "illegal immigrants" in the US what makes you think when the borders really were open that no on entered at will illegally?

At the time we were an open borders country. In fact we wanted people to come here because we needed the labor as a new nation being built. Nobody was really illegal, however they were still non-citizens.

Again how the 14th was written does include all people in this nation legal and illegal.

The amendment was written for former slaves and their offspring. It had nothing to do with immigration. That's what needs to be decided by the courts.

They interpret according to the words written mostly.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Didn't you liberals tell us the Constitution is a living document; that it needs to change with the times?

Yes, we are the good guys. The left generally sides with evil and the right generally sides with the good.

The 14th was never written for anchor babies because there was no such thing as anchor babies at the time. There were no legal or illegal immigrants either. There were only citizens and non-citizens.

There has always been "illegal immigrants" in the US what makes you think when the borders really were open that no on entered at will illegally?

At the time we were an open borders country. In fact we wanted people to come here because we needed the labor as a new nation being built. Nobody was really illegal, however they were still non-citizens.

Again how the 14th was written does include all people in this nation legal and illegal.

The amendment was written for former slaves and their offspring. It had nothing to do with immigration. That's what needs to be decided by the courts.

They interpret according to the words written mostly.

If you mean the court, not really.

They look into the arguments made during the debate of the amendment. During the debate, several have said that the 14th should not mean automatic citizenship to anybody who comes over and has children. That's why the clause "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" was included.

So like other things in the Constitution, it's ambiguous. That's why the courts need to straighten it out.

 

[Moonglow]

There has always been "illegal immigrants" in the US what makes you think when the borders really were open that no on entered at will illegally?

At the time we were an open borders country. In fact we wanted people to come here because we needed the labor as a new nation being built. Nobody was really illegal, however they were still non-citizens.

Again how the 14th was written does include all people in this nation legal and illegal.

The amendment was written for former slaves and their offspring. It had nothing to do with immigration. That's what needs to be decided by the courts.

They interpret according to the words written mostly.

If you mean the court, not really.

They look into the arguments made during the debate of the amendment. During the debate, several have said that the 14th should not mean automatic citizenship to anybody who comes over and has children. That's why the clause "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" was included.

So like other things in the Constitution, it's ambiguous. That's why the courts need to straighten it out.

It has gone before the Supreme Court more than once and it comes out the same every time.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

At the time we were an open borders country. In fact we wanted people to come here because we needed the labor as a new nation being built. Nobody was really illegal, however they were still non-citizens.

Again how the 14th was written does include all people in this nation legal and illegal.

The amendment was written for former slaves and their offspring. It had nothing to do with immigration. That's what needs to be decided by the courts.

They interpret according to the words written mostly.

If you mean the court, not really.

They look into the arguments made during the debate of the amendment. During the debate, several have said that the 14th should not mean automatic citizenship to anybody who comes over and has children. That's why the clause "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" was included.

So like other things in the Constitution, it's ambiguous. That's why the courts need to straighten it out.

It has gone before the Supreme Court more than once and it comes out the same every time.

No, it has not. That's why it needs to happen now, because people are abusing our laws.

 

[JoeB131]

Didn't you liberals tell us the Constitution is a living document; that it needs to change with the times?

Yes, we are the good guys. The left generally sides with evil and the right generally sides with the good.

Really? Frankly, I don't see big corporations, pollutors and racists as "good".

Or as President Obama recently said, 'How hard is it to say Nazis are bad?"

 

[JoeB131]

Ah yes, you leftists hold on to fantasies forever, don't you?

You can't subpoena a sitting US President. Hillary stands a better chance at going to prison than Trump.

Sure you can... you can't subpoena him to testify, but you can subpoena his tax records, no problem.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Ah yes, you leftists hold on to fantasies forever, don't you?

You can't subpoena a sitting US President. Hillary stands a better chance at going to prison than Trump.

Sure you can... you can't subpoena him to testify, but you can subpoena his tax records, no problem.

No reason to. The IRS has copies of everything he ever submitted, and he (like many wealthy) have been audited countless times.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Didn't you liberals tell us the Constitution is a living document; that it needs to change with the times?

Yes, we are the good guys. The left generally sides with evil and the right generally sides with the good.

Really? Frankly, I don't see big corporations, pollutors and racists as "good".

Or as President Obama recently said, 'How hard is it to say Nazis are bad?"

Ah yes, that lie again.

People who want to see Americans being able to defend themselves are good.

People who side with the police over criminals are good.

People who side with our military over our enemies are good.

People who side with Israel over terrorists are good.

People who side with freedom over government control are good.

People who think only females should use female restrooms and facilities are good.

Liberalsim is evil. Face it. Liberals are the devil's angels. They carry out his will every single day in this country.

 

[JoeB131]

No reason to. The IRS has copies of everything he ever submitted, and he (like many wealthy) have been audited countless times.

Oh, I'm sure it has been, but I'll bet we'll find out all sorts of interesting stuff when we do real investigations into his various scams and how much he owes the Russians and Saudis.

And now, we have a reminder the Ray is a crazy racist idiot...

Ah yes, that lie again.

People who want to see Americans being able to defend themselves are good.

We have 33,000 gun deaths a year in this country, less than a 200 are civilians in self-defense situations.

People who side with the police over criminals are good.

12 year olds playing with toys aren't criminals. Some lady who talked back to a cop isn't a criminal.

People who side with our military over our enemies are good.

Again, who is siding against our military. Questioning whether a dumb war was a good idea is kind of a good idea. Bush Lied, members of the military died. For no good reason. SO who hates the military?

People who side with Israel over terrorists are good.

No, the Zionists are the scum of the universe. There's a reason the whole world hates them.

People who side with freedom over government control are good.

Yawn. Whenever you guys whine about "Freedom", it's usually a defense of those with money and privilege to abuse people without money and privilege.

People who think only females should use female restrooms and facilities are good.

Uh, guy, the concept of gender specific restrooms is less than a century old. Most of history, everyone peed in the same restrooms, and it was fine.

Liberalsim is evil. Face it. Liberals are the devil's angels. They carry out his will every single day in this country.

You see, here's the thing.. In the whole Bible, Satan only kills 10 people on a bar bet with God.

God, on the other hand, kills hundreds of thousands of people for pretty petty things... So I'm having a hard time picking out which on was good.

"I drowned every baby in the world because their parents made decisions I didn't like!"

"Um, you're supposed to be the "Good Guy" in this book?"

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Oh, I'm sure it has been, but I'll bet we'll find out all sorts of interesting stuff when we do real investigations into his various scams and how much he owes the Russians and Saudis.

And now, we have a reminder the Ray is a crazy racist idiot...

You can only use subpoenas when a crime is suspected. Trump can deal with anybody in the world he wants to; no crime. In fact business people in the country do it every day.

We have 33,000 gun deaths a year in this country, less than a 200 are civilians in self-defense situations.

No, much more than that, not to mention the crime stopped by armed citizens. But wanting to enable the criminal so they have an advantage over good people is pure evil.

12 year olds playing with toys aren't criminals. Some lady who talked back to a cop isn't a criminal.

Liberals side against the police in every nationally reported event. Siding with evil is evil.

Again, who is siding against our military. Questioning whether a dumb war was a good idea is kind of a good idea. Bush Lied, members of the military died. For no good reason. SO who hates the military?

The people who stood around protesting our military. The leftists who insisted terrorists get constitutional rights and a government paid lawyer. People who insisted we empty out Gitmo and let those people return to their terrorist caps. That's who. Pure evil.

No, the Zionists are the scum of the universe. There's a reason the whole world hates them.

Thank you for supporting my point.

Yawn. Whenever you guys whine about "Freedom", it's usually a defense of those with money and privilege to abuse people without money and privilege.

Nobody does that. That's only in your little world you live in. Normal people don't have issues with rich people because they have no effect on our lives. But when you tell people they can't eat X, tell people they must buy X, tell people they can't do X, it's a line by line freedom removal. Pure evil.

Uh, guy, the concept of gender specific restrooms is less than a century old. Most of history, everyone peed in the same restrooms, and it was fine.

Never seen that in any restroom I've been to, and I've never heard about it until Satan's solders began to make an issue out of it. The only time you heard about such a thing years ago is when a guy got arrested for it.

You see, here's the thing.. In the whole Bible, Satan only kills 10 people on a bar bet with God.

God, on the other hand, kills hundreds of thousands of people for pretty petty things... So I'm having a hard time picking out which on was good.

"I drowned every baby in the world because their parents made decisions I didn't like!"

"Um, you're supposed to be the "Good Guy" in this book?"

Thank you for the reminder: God in society or God removed from society. Liberals choose to remove God from society.

 

[JoeB131]

You can only use subpoenas when a crime is suspected. Trump can deal with anybody in the world he wants to; no crime. In fact business people in the country do it every day.

Well, we suspect a crime.. time for a subpeona.. that was easy.

If Trump didn't do anything wrong, watcha worried about, pally!

And now more Crazy From Crazy Racist Ray.

No, much more than that, not to mention the crime stopped by armed citizens. But wanting to enable the criminal so they have an advantage over good people is pure evil.

no, not more than that, and the fact that we have so many guns out there is what enables crime.

Liberals side against the police in every nationally reported event. Siding with evil is evil.

Sorry,man, Tamir Rice wasn't evil. Hiring officer McShooty when it was clear he had mental problems was.

The people who stood around protesting our military. The leftists who insisted terrorists get constitutional rights and a government paid lawyer. People who insisted we empty out Gitmo and let those people return to their terrorist caps. That's who. Pure evil.

So saying terrorist should get due process of law is "evil'? Interesting. And what do you do the day we decide that racists don't get constitutional rights, either... and someone carts you off to a gitmo, since racist terrorists kill m ore people in a given year than Arab terrorists?

Thank you for supporting my point.

That the Zionists who bomb schools and hospitals are scum? We established that.

Nobody does that. That's only in your little world you live in. Normal people don't have issues with rich people because they have no effect on our lives. But when you tell people they can't eat X, tell people they must buy X, tell people they can't do X, it's a line by line freedom removal. Pure evil.

Yawn, guy, the reality is, when your lot gets into power, they deregulate the rich, and the turn around screw us.. Were you asleep during 2008?

Never seen that in any restroom I've been to, and I've never heard about it until Satan's solders began to make an issue out of it. The only time you heard about such a thing years ago is when a guy got arrested for it.

Where do you think the Trannies were peeing up to that point?

Thank you for the reminder: God in society or God removed from society. Liberals choose to remove God from society.

God doesn't exist.. Thankfully. I would really hate to think the universe is so badly designed that the Evil Sky Pixie of the Bible is in charge.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Well, we suspect a crime.. time for a subpeona.. that was easy.

If Trump didn't do anything wrong, watcha worried about, pally!

And now more Crazy From Crazy Racist Ray.

So where is your evidence of this crime? You can't suspect a crime unless you have evidence to support it.

Agan, you live in fairy land. Trump isn't going anywhere for another six years. Live with it.

no, not more than that, and the fact that we have so many guns out there is what enables crime.

Yet in places like your homie Chicago where guns are very restricted, more shootings there than most places in the US with less restrictions.

Sorry,man, Tamir Rice wasn't evil. Hiring officer McShooty when it was clear he had mental problems was.

You're stuck on one case which was ruled in the officers favor by a Grand Jury. You hate it because a good guy won the battle.

So saying terrorist should get due process of law is "evil'? Interesting. And what do you do the day we decide that racists don't get constitutional rights, either... and someone carts you off to a gitmo, since racist terrorists kill m ore people in a given year than Arab terrorists?

Terrorists are not like American prisoners. They are war criminals. In fact most of the ones DumBama let out went back to their terrorist groups to kill more American solders.

Yawn, guy, the reality is, when your lot gets into power, they deregulate the rich, and the turn around screw us.. Were you asleep during 2008?

I was awake enough to realize it was more than Bush and had zero to do with any regulations. If you lower the standards for getting a loan so more minorities can purchase homes, then you are putting those loans at a much higher risk. As I have posted repeatedly, that started under the Clinton administration.

Where do you think the Trannies were peeing up to that point?

At home where they belonged. Very few guys wore dresses years ago. If you had mental problems like thinking you were a woman, you only dressed that way at home or with your weirdo friends.

God doesn't exist.. Thankfully. I would really hate to think the universe is so badly designed that the Evil Sky Pixie of the Bible is in charge.

Well he is.

 

[JoeB131]

So where is your evidence of this crime? You can't suspect a crime unless you have evidence to support it.

Agan, you live in fairy land. Trump isn't going anywhere for another six years. Live with it.

Trump won't last out the next two... he's gone in 2020 regardless.

Yet in places like your homie Chicago where guns are very restricted, more shootings there than most places in the US with less restrictions.

Dude, we have no restrictions on guns in Chicago since the Awful McDonald decision... which is when the gun crime doubled.

You're stuck on one case which was ruled in the officers favor by a Grand Jury. You hate it because a good guy won the battle.

Because it's a great example of an awful case. They shot a child with a toy... and got away with it.

Terrorists are not like American prisoners. They are war criminals. In fact most of the ones DumBama let out went back to their terrorist groups to kill more American solders.

If they are war criminals, then they are accorded certain rights under the Geneva Conventions.

And, no, none of those guys "went out and killed Americans". They are still in Qatar.

I was awake enough to realize it was more than Bush and had zero to do with any regulations. If you lower the standards for getting a loan so more minorities can purchase homes, then you are putting those loans at a much higher risk. As I have posted repeatedly, that started under the Clinton administration.

I know that's what they told you on Fox News, but the reality- the deregulation was on banks selling McMansions to Middle Class dipshits who watched House Flipping Show and then they sold those loans as investments... that's what caused the crash. Not sensible laws that were in place since the 1970's to keep banks from being racist.

At home where they belonged. Very few guys wore dresses years ago. If you had mental problems like thinking you were a woman, you only dressed that way at home or with your weirdo friends.

Again, you are probably one of these people who thinks no one was gay until there was a gay rights movement. And the Darkies were happy riding at the back of the bus until some uppity negroes told them not to.

 

[jillian]

And while you’re at it go look up what it takes to amend the constitution.

Our amazing Pres. Trump isn't trying to amend the constitution.

He just wants the law to be in step with what the constitution says. ...

no snookie bear.

there is nothing amazing about the sociopath in chief.... and the constitution is very clear that if you are born here you are a citizen.

feel free to go to Russia if you want something different

buh bye

 

[jillian]

So where is your evidence of this crime? You can't suspect a crime unless you have evidence to support it.

Agan, you live in fairy land. Trump isn't going anywhere for another six years. Live with it.

Trump won't last out the next two... he's gone in 2020 regardless.

Yet in places like your homie Chicago where guns are very restricted, more shootings there than most places in the US with less restrictions.

Dude, we have no restrictions on guns in Chicago since the Awful McDonald decision... which is when the gun crime doubled.

You're stuck on one case which was ruled in the officers favor by a Grand Jury. You hate it because a good guy won the battle.

Because it's a great example of an awful case. They shot a child with a toy... and got away with it.

Terrorists are not like American prisoners. They are war criminals. In fact most of the ones DumBama let out went back to their terrorist groups to kill more American solders.

If they are war criminals, then they are accorded certain rights under the Geneva Conventions.

And, no, none of those guys "went out and killed Americans". They are still in Qatar.

I was awake enough to realize it was more than Bush and had zero to do with any regulations. If you lower the standards for getting a loan so more minorities can purchase homes, then you are putting those loans at a much higher risk. As I have posted repeatedly, that started under the Clinton administration.

I know that's what they told you on Fox News, but the reality- the deregulation was on banks selling McMansions to Middle Class dipshits who watched House Flipping Show and then they sold those loans as investments... that's what caused the crash. Not sensible laws that were in place since the 1970's to keep banks from being racist.

At home where they belonged. Very few guys wore dresses years ago. If you had mental problems like thinking you were a woman, you only dressed that way at home or with your weirdo friends.

Again, you are probably one of these people who thinks no one was gay until there was a gay rights movement. And the Darkies were happy riding at the back of the bus until some uppity negroes told them not to.

you left out the part where the loans were ARM's and the banks told people, go ahead, take the equity out of your home, we'll re-fi you in five years before the ARM hits....

and then the housing market dropped and there wasn't enough equity in the property so the banks refused to re-fi..... they left all these people with mortgages that increased exorbitantly and these people then couldn't afford to pay their mortgages.

THAT is how people lost their houses because of the sleazy banks....not because, as rightwingnut pond scum like to say, black people couldn't be redlined. (there was nothing that required banks not to apply standard risk factors. they just couldn't redline).