Next time some idiot says "Our forefathers didn't base this country on God".....

[menewa]

Hmm.. so I guess we should disrgard the Bill of Rights eh? Nope, no mention of God at all there eh?

No, there's not. The 1st amendment simply says the government cannot make any laws supporting a particuular religion nor prevent anyone from practicing their respective religion. This has nothing to do with Christian doctrine and all to do with protecting the religious rights of individuals from government excess.

 

[-Cp]

No, there's not. The 1st amendment simply says the government cannot make any laws supporting a particuular religion nor prevent anyone from practicing their respective religion. This has nothing to do with Christian doctrine and all to do with protecting the religious rights of individuals from government excess.

Sorry, you're wrong on the first Amendment..

1. The 1st amendment simply says that the Government cannot establish its own religion - freedom OF religion - not freedom FROM religion....

2. You're right - I meant the Declaration of Independance..... TONS of refferences to God in there...

 

[dilloduck]

My problem with the Boy Scouts, and the reason they frequently have problems getting usage of public property is that they are on record as publically excluding gay people and in some areas non-Christians from participation. It is against many city ordinances and state laws to allow organizations that discriminate use of public land with or without a fee to have events. That is the problem, not whether or not they have a religious oath (which they do "...do my duty to God and my country...").

As for crosses in cemeteries, the plots are privately owned and so the owners of those plots should be allowed to put whatever symbols they choose within reason (i.e. a twenty foot neon sign probably wouldn't be appropriate).

The fact is, that those most responsible for the shape of our present government were adamant about keeping government and religion separate. Jefferson's epitaph even mentions that he was the author of the Virginia Statute for Religious freedom. James Madison (a.k.a. "The Father of our Constitution) was adamant about separation of church and state as were Benjamin Franklin, the devoutly religious John Adams, and Federalist papers authors John Jay and Alexander Hamilton.

acludem

Hey, if they hang a Monet in a courthouse does that mean that the government is a proponent of Impressionism ???? I'm gonna have to look into this one.

 

[Nienna]

People often make the argument that Christianity is not the foundation of this country, that the founding fathers believed that religion should have no place in the government, that this government should be free from religion. Here are some quotes from some of the founders themselves concerning this idea.

“The general principles on which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity.”

Also: “We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion.”
---- John Adams, signer of Declaration of Independence, and second President of the U.S.

In agreement with Adams’ second quote, Thomas Jefferson (signer of Declaration of Independence and third President of the U.S.) said, “The precepts of philosophy laid hold of actions only… [but Jesus] pushed His scrutinies into the heart of man, erected His tribunal in the region of [man’s] thoughts, and purified the waters at the fountainhead.” This is in reference to Matthew 5, wherein Jesus condemns not only murder and adultery, but their very causes: hatred and lustful thoughts. Both Adams and Jefferson understood that laws cannot restrain people; they can only punish. But a nation of Christian people can be free because they will be restrained by Christian morality.

“Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty—as well as the privilege and interest--- of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.”
---- John Jay, first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, and one of the three men most responsible for the U.S. Constitution

Here are two quotes (among myriad) made at the Constitutional Convention of 1787.

“If a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice (re: Mt 10:29), is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We’ve been assured in the sacred writing that ‘Except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it (re: Ps 127:1).’ “
---- Benjamin Franklin, calling for regular daily prayer to keep God in the midst of the actions of the Convention.

“Let us enter on this important business under the idea that we are Christians on whom the eyes of the world are now turned.”
--- Elias Boudinot, president of the Continental Congress


The Supreme Court has time and again upheld the Christian foundation of this nation. There are hundreds of examples. Here are two.

Runkel v. Winemiller (1799) “By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed on the same equal footing.”

The People v. Ruggles (1811) Ruggles was sentenced to 3 months in jail and fined $500 for distributing fliers which spewed profanity at Jesus Christ. This was judged to be an attack on the country. “Whatever strikes at the root of Christianity tends manifestly to the dissolution of civil government.”

Note: These rulings were made after the first amendment was made to the U.S. Constitution, and judged to be in accordance with it.

After being petitioned to separate the Christian religion from government affairs, the House Judiciary Committee conducted an exhaustive review of the founding fathers’ writings. The report given March 27, 1854 concluded, “Had the [founding fathers], during the Revolution, a suspicion of any attempt to war against Christianity, that Revolution would have been strangled in its cradle…At the time of the adoption of the Constitution and its amendments, the universal sentiment was that Christianity should be encouraged, but not any one sect… In this age, there is no substitute for Christianity… That was the religion of the founders of the republic, and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendents.” (2 months later) “The great vital and conservative element in our system is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and Divine truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”

It’s a shame that references like this have been scoured from public education. Americans deserve to know the truth about their heritage. The people of America are free to believe whatever they choose; however, this government and its laws were established in accordance with Christianity. Christianity is the underlying reference point of this government.

 

[acludem]

Nowhere in ANY of the quotes you choose does it state that Christianity is to be the official religion of the United States. You must also realize that our country has changed much in 200 years. In the late 18th and early 19th, a huge majority of the American people were Protestant Christians. Nowadays, there is a much more diverse populace. As to the two Supreme Court decisions, the quotes are solely the opinion of the author. I guarantee you Jefferson, et. al would have strongly disagreed with the notion that "Christianity is the official religion..." John Adams' quote says "morality and religion" not "morality and Christianity".

These may have been their words, my friend, but their actions speak louder. Religion was specifically left out of the Constitution. The first amendment was passed to guarantee religious freedom in writing. There were Catholics and Jews in America by this time. Maryland was founded as a Catholic Colony by Lord Baltimore. Roger Williams founded Rhode Island as a haven for those persecuted by the Puritans, included Jews. The idea that this is or was ever a solely "Christian" nation is founded upon wrong assumptions and bad information. If the founders had intended our government to be Christian they would have written it into the document constructing our government. The Declaration of Independence does make references to God, because as a propaganda device, Jefferson wanted people to think God was on their side against the King.

Here are couple of Jefferson quotes:
"The constitutional freedom of religion [is] the most inalienable and sacred of all human rights." --Thomas Jefferson: Virginia Board of Visitors Minutes, 1819. ME 19:416
"I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendency of one sect over another." --Thomas Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1799. ME 10:78
No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor... otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief... All men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain their opinions in matters of religion, and... the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities." --Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:302, Papers 2:546

Pay special attention to the last one. This is both freedom of and freedom from religion. This is what the framers intended. James Madison (a.k.a. the Father of our Constitution) steered this exact piece of legislation to passage in the Virginia State Assembly.

acludem

 

[Nienna]

I completely agree that the founders would never have wanted to force anyone to believe in Christianity or any religion. However, Christian beliefs and values were the very basis of the government and law. People were free to practice any religion as long as it did not conflict with Christianity. For example, Hindus at the time practiced the suttee. When a man died, his body was cremated, and if his wife was living, she was thrown ALIVE into the fire to die with him. This would have been (and IS, thank God!) illegal in America. Christianity condemns murder as being wrong, and states that women have equal spiritual value with men, and therefore have the right to go on living, even if their husbands died. This government's laws are based on those values.

Also, read Blackstone's Commentaries on the Law. This was the reference used by the Supreme Court in the beginning to understand and interpret the law. It explains America's laws, and lists the Bible verses the laws are based upon.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident... that [men] are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights." Who is the Creator? If you understand the culture of the time period, if you read the writings of the founders themselves, you will understand that this mysterious "creator," in their minds, is none other than the Christian God. When the founders mention "God," "religion," "morality," they do not specifically name "Christianity" because, in their minds, those words were synonymous with Christianity. In European culture, Christianity was the religion, the definition of truth. They don't say "The Christian God," because, in their minds, this was the only God.

Here's the rest of that quote from John Adams.
"The general principles on which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes God."

The God he's talking about is the Christian God. There was no other in his mind.

Now, again, this is not to say that people of other religions would not be welcome in this country. Welcome with open arms! But America's laws and values are based on Christianity. If their beliefs, actions, or religious practices were in conflict with those of Christianity, as codified in the law, they would have trouble.

 

[musicman]

Beautifully stated, mom4!

 

[musicman]

These may have been their words, my friend, but their actions speak louder.

The Declaration of Independence does make references to God, because as a propaganda device, Jefferson wanted people to think God was on their side against the King.

Do you even hear yourself? I believe you've taken that final step off the deep end. I saw this coming; it was only a matter of time.

 

[MissileMan]

I completely agree that the founders would never have wanted to force anyone to believe in Christianity or any religion. However, Christian beliefs and values were the very basis of the government and law. People were free to practice any religion as long as it did not conflict with Christianity. For example, Hindus at the time practiced the suttee. When a man died, his body was cremated, and if his wife was living, she was thrown ALIVE into the fire to die with him. This would have been (and IS, thank God!) illegal in America. Christianity condemns murder as being wrong, and states that women have equal spiritual value with men, and therefore have the right to go on living, even if their husbands died. This government's laws are based on those values.

While many of our laws are based on the 10 commandments, you are overstating your point. Firstly, the founding fathers established a government based on law, not religion. They did this to ensure equal standing for everyone regardless of religion. It is true that most of the founders were Christian, but for you to allege that it means that the government is based in Christianity is like saying Ford car design is based in Christianity because Henry Ford was a Protestant.

As a matter of fact, you would be hard pressed to provide any parallels between our system of government and the Bible.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident... that [men] are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights." Who is the Creator? If you understand the culture of the time period, if you read the writings of the founders themselves, you will understand that this mysterious "creator," in their minds, is none other than the Christian God. When the founders mention "God," "religion," "morality," they do not specifically name "Christianity" because, in their minds, those words were synonymous with Christianity. In European culture, Christianity was the religion, the definition of truth. They don't say "The Christian God," because, in their minds, this was the only God.

Our laws and government aren't based on the Declaration of Independence.

 

[musicman]

While many of our laws are based on the 10 commandments, you are overstating your point. Firstly, the founding fathers established a government based on law, not religion.

The terms are not mutually exclusive, MM. The Ten Commandments WERE the law, according to the Christians who founded this nation.

They did this to ensure equal standing for everyone regardless of religion.

My - what a coincidence! That's one of the bedrock principles of Christianity - no man can come to God except through his own free will. Coercion is, then, pointless; a Christian theocracy is a contradiction in terms.

It is true that most of the founders were Christian, but for you to allege that it means that the government is based in Christianity is like saying Ford car design is based in Christianity because Henry Ford was a Protestant.

Hmmm...hard work, frugality, delay of gratification, Yankee ingenuity...you're scaring me, man! I never thought of the Ford as a "Christian car" before!

As a matter of fact, you would be hard pressed to provide any parallels between our system of government and the Bible...Our laws and government aren't based on the Declaration of Independence.

You can't divorce the two; it's a futile exercise. The Declaration was the "mission statement" - the Constitution, its nuts-and-bolts implementation. The Declaration states that man derives his fundamental rights from God - they are not granted him by the state. The Constitution then puts this unique concept into practical effect. Read it; its very purpose for existing is to limit the power of the state in favor of the fundamental rights of man!

 

[MissileMan]

The terms are not mutually exclusive, MM. The Ten Commandments WERE the law, according to the Christians who founded this nation.

If that's indeed true, it's very strange that only a couple of the commandments became laws. Things that make you go hmmm.

Hmmm...hard work, frugality, delay of gratification, Yankee ingenuity...you're scaring me, man! I never thought of the Ford as a "Christian car" before!

While your wit is biting, and slightly amusing, I'd prefer you attempt a rebuttal.

You can't divorce the two; it's a futile exercise. The Declaration was the "mission statement" - the Constitution, its nuts-and-bolts implementation. The Declaration states that man derives his fundamental rights from God - they are not granted him by the state. The Constitution then puts this unique concept into practical effect. Read it; its very purpose for existing is to limit the power of the state in favor of the fundamental rights of man!

The DoI was a divorce decree from England laying out the reasons a divorce was necessary. The Constitution was the framework to establish a new nation and government. Apples and submarines...nice try though.

 

[Jimmyeatworld]

Nowhere in ANY of the quotes you choose does it state that Christianity is to be the official religion of the United States. You must also realize that our country has changed much in 200 years. In the late 18th and early 19th, a huge majority of the American people were Protestant Christians. Nowadays, there is a much more diverse populace. As to the two Supreme Court decisions, the quotes are solely the opinion of the author. I guarantee you Jefferson, et. al would have strongly disagreed with the notion that "Christianity is the official religion..." John Adams' quote says "morality and religion" not "morality and Christianity".

You're not even paying attention to what you're arguing about, or what the people you're arguing with are saying. Nobody in this thread has made the claim that the founding fathers said Christianity was the official religion of the United States. It would be odd if they had since Christianity is not a religion, but a belief that many religions are built on. What is being said is that the founding fathers were influenced by their religious beliefs, just as people are influenced by their religious beliefs today in everything they do. The majority of the founding fathers followed a Christian religion, and that is evident in their writings and their decisions. Oh, just for the record, another Adams quote after the signing of the Declaration of Independence: "The United States of America were no longer Colonies. They were an independent nation of Christians."

These may have been their words, my friend, but their actions speak louder. Religion was specifically left out of the Constitution. The first amendment was passed to guarantee religious freedom in writing. There were Catholics and Jews in America by this time. Maryland was founded as a Catholic Colony by Lord Baltimore. Roger Williams founded Rhode Island as a haven for those persecuted by the Puritans, included Jews. The idea that this is or was ever a solely "Christian" nation is founded upon wrong assumptions and bad information. If the founders had intended our government to be Christian they would have written it into the document constructing our government.

The founding fathers did not leave religion out of the Constitution as a way to bury it. We have freedom of religion, that does not translate to hiding every sign of religion or of Christianity. Again, nobody is saying that this country was intended to be "solely a Christian nation".

The Declaration of Independence does make references to God, because as a propaganda device, Jefferson wanted people to think God was on their side against the King.

This is just stupid. I'm surprised you didn't call him a Nazi.

Here are couple of Jefferson quotes:
"The constitutional freedom of religion [is] the most inalienable and sacred of all human rights." --Thomas Jefferson: Virginia Board of Visitors Minutes, 1819. ME 19:416
"I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendency of one sect over another." --Thomas Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1799. ME 10:78
No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor... otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief... All men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain their opinions in matters of religion, and... the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities." --Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:302, Papers 2:546

Pay special attention to the last one. This is both freedom of and freedom from religion. This is what the framers intended. James Madison (a.k.a. the Father of our Constitution) steered this exact piece of legislation to passage in the Virginia State Assembly.

acludem

Nobody is trying to disagree with any of those statements and you are dead wrong on your assumption of the last quote. That is NOT freedom from religion. Freedom of religion is essentially freedom from religious persecution, and that's what Jefferson was talking about. What was going on in Europe at the time is what they were trying to avoid. Unfortunately, 200+ years later, there are idiots trying to twist things to fit their own ideas.

 

[Annie]

You're not even paying attention to what you're arguing about, or what the people you're arguing with are saying. Nobody in this thread has made the claim that the founding fathers said Christianity was the official religion of the United States. It would be odd if they had since Christianity is not a religion, but a belief that many religions are built on. What is being said is that the founding fathers were influenced by their religious beliefs, just as people are influenced by their religious beliefs today in everything they do. The majority of the founding fathers followed a Christian religion, and that is evident in their writings and their decisions. Oh, just for the record, another Adams quote after the signing of the Declaration of Independence: "The United States of America were no longer Colonies. They were an independent nation of Christians."



The founding fathers did not leave religion out of the Constitution as a way to bury it. We have freedom of religion, that does not translate to hiding every sign of religion or of Christianity. Again, nobody is saying that this country was intended to be "solely a Christian nation".



This is just stupid. I'm surprised you didn't call him a Nazi.



Nobody is trying to disagree with any of those statements and you are dead wrong on your assumption of the last quote. That is NOT freedom from religion. Freedom of religion is essentially freedom from religious persecution, and that's what Jefferson was talking about. What was going on in Europe at the time is what they were trying to avoid. Unfortunately, 200+ years later, there are idiots trying to twist things to fit their own ideas.

 

[musicman]

If that's indeed true, it's very strange that only a couple of the commandments became laws. Things that make you go hmmm.

Well, the first four commandments pertain to man's relationship with God - and our founding fathers, in keeping with Christian principles regarding man's free will in these matters - rightly decided to leave government out of it. Five through nine loom pretty large, though (respect lawful authority, don't kill or hurt people, don't fornicate, steal, or bear false witness. And, of course, "don't covet" is just good common sense advice, since it leads to so many other problems). All in all, a pretty good batting average for the Christian understanding of the Ten Commandments, if you ask me.

While your wit is biting, and slightly amusing,

Aw, g'wan...stop it...





...Stop it some more!!!

I'd prefer you attempt a rebuttal.

Henry Ford experienced an appreciable measure of success adhering to Christian principles...as did America.

The DoI was a divorce decree from England laying out the reasons a divorce was necessary. The Constitution was the framework to establish a new nation and government. Apples and submarines...nice try though.

No - I think I had it right. The new nation (and, necessarily, its constitution) was implicit in the divorce. I mean, these guys weren't about to go floating about on rafts for the rest of their lives. The Declaration was the mission statement; the Constitution, the nuts-and-bolts implementation of same. More like apples and...apple pie!

I made another funny!!!

 

[MissileMan]

Well, the first four commandments pertain to man's relationship with God - and our founding fathers, in keeping with Christian principles regarding man's free will in these matters - rightly decided to leave government out of it. Five through nine loom pretty large, though (respect lawful authority, don't kill or hurt people, don't fornicate, steal, or bear false witness. And, of course, "don't covet" is just good common sense advice, since it leads to so many other problems). All in all, a pretty good batting average for the Christian understanding of the Ten Commandments, if you ask me.

I think if you recheck your cypherin', you'll find that only 3 out of 10 made it into law...Thou shall not kill, steal, or commit perjury. Don't be down-hearted though, .300 is still a respectable batting average.

Henry Ford experienced an appreciable measure of success adhering to Christian principles...as did America.

This still doesn't answer how anyone can reasonably argue that our government is based on Christianity. Link some biblical verses that discuss a 3-branch government with checks and balances. Link any other mid-18th century or earlier Christian society that was the model for our system.

 

[acludem]

I find it amazing how many of you seem to think that the Declaration of Independence was meant to be anything other than a call to arms against the King. The Declaration was never meant to be a governing document. It wasn't anything but a laundry list of complaints against the King written in such a way as to arouse revolution in the colonies. It was designed to be published and read and/or distributed in towns throughout the colonies.

I do believe the founders intended everyone to be free from religious persecution, which would include those who chose not to practice any religion. Wouldn't foisting religion of any sort on them be religious persecution? Those who would argue that "it's freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion" play a false game of semantics. Freedom of Religion must include freedom from religion. You can't have one without the other. To argue otherwise would be like saying that when someone exercises their freedom speech that the rest of us have to sit and listen. Part of our freedom of speech is get up and walk out of the room if we want.

acludem

 

[musicman]

I think if you recheck your cypherin', you'll find that only 3 out of 10 made it into law...Thou shall not kill, steal, or commit perjury. Don't be down-hearted though, .300 is still a respectable batting average.

I think you're selling ol' Moses short. "Respect lawful authority" is rather implicit in the law itself, don't you think? And, in keeping with the founders' overall spirit of the devolution of power to the people, matters of behavior such as fornication were left to communities (would that our modern-day judiciary would see the beauty in that!), with the expectation, of course, that sane persons would outlaw pursuits like prostitution, and guard themselves from perversity in general. I won't quibble, though. .300 hitters drive a different Ferrari every day of the week!

This still doesn't answer how anyone can reasonably argue that our government is based on Christianity.

It was founded by men who lived their lives according to Christian principles. How could it NOT be?

Link some biblical verses that discuss a 3-branch government with checks and balances.

Barney Fife would say that you're being "deliberately obtuse"!

Link any other mid-18th century or earlier Christian society that was the model for our system.

But, don't you see - that's the point. There IS none! America is it. And no civilization in history has come so far, so fast, and done so much good.

 

[musicman]

Wouldn't foisting religion of any sort on them be religious persecution?

Who - besides secular humanists - is trying to foist their religion on ANYBODY?

Those who would argue that "it's freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion" play a false game of semantics. Freedom of Religion must include freedom from religion.

What about those who demand "from" - to the EXCLUSION of "of" - and contrary to the wishes of whole communities? Who's doing the "foisting" here?

 

[MissileMan]

It was founded by men who lived their lives according to Christian principles. How could it NOT be?

Now that you understand the question, go back and read my comment about Ford. My point is that just because something is designed by a Christian, that in itself, does not constitute a basis in Christianity. Yes, the founders were Christian, but they created a form of government that has nothing to do with religion other than guaranteeing it's free practice.

 

[musicman]

Link some biblical verses that discuss a 3-branch government with checks and balances.

Upon further reflection, I think I can give you an answer here - at least in a broad sense.

What does a 3-branch government with a system of checks and balances suggest to you? To me, it suggests DISTRUST - distrust of governments which, being the creations of imperfect, corruptible men, must degenerate into tyranny if left unchecked. This is a unique outlook in the history of governments; no fond notions of a utopia being created by men whose natures have been elevated above the mundane; no divinely appointed royalty; our founders saw government as a necessary evil, to be kept on a short, jealously guarded leash.

This pessimistic view of human nature is VERY MUCH biblical in nature. "All men fall short of the glory".