New Evidence? Kent State shootings.

[ConHog]

I said LONG ago, including on this board, that the rioters precipitated that event.

Okay. How? (Specifics, please.)

I'm not biased for or against either side. That was an ugly incident and I'd like to find there was good reason for what happened. So far I haven't.

Now I'm reading that four pistol shots were heard seventy seconds before the Guardsmen opened up on unarmed protesters with M-1 rifles. Seventy seconds for a presumptive return fire response? I don't have to tell you how that sounds.

But I'm open to new information and I'm always eager to learn.

Well, let's not confuse things here. There was NO good reason for it to happen. There were however thing done by the rioters which led to the shootings.

First of all it is important to remember that they had been rioting including burning building and beating up people who opposed them, for THREE days before the day of the shooting. Further they ignored a lawful order by the police to disperse. Some argue that it was no a legal order, but the fact is that the rioters forfeited their status as peaceful protesters long before the police ordered them to disperse. Then when the commander of the national guard unit approached them to order them to disperse they responded by throwing rocks at him and chasing his Jeep off. Then of course there is evidence that shots were fired out of the crowd, but we'll leave that as conjecture since we do not have definitive proof.

Now is all that enough to warrant opening fire? Probably not, but when judging one has to remember the times. The crowd at that school undoubtedly hated the military, so perhaps the decision to send in the military was a stupid one to begin with. An FBI SWAT team might have been more appropriate. Be that as it may, military members are humans, I'm sure they equally hated the students. Both sides no doubt also feared the other side. People do stupid things when they are scared. Stupid things were done on BOTH sides.

 

[zzzz]

One minute and 10 seconds.

The time factor indicates the the Guards shooting was not in response to the previous shots. If it was in response it would have occurred within seconds not over a minute later.

Plus live ammuntion should never have been loaded in that situation. A rifle with a bayonet on the end of it is persuasive enough if presented at the point of a cohesive unit. Civilized nations do not fire live rounds into protesters.

 

[Againsheila]

my opinion, the photographer got in peoples face shooting pictures...and he pissed off some people and it got out of hand. Someone else covered up his shooting for reasons unknown.

I think the reasons are clear. He shot his gun, which caused the national guard to shoot theirs at the students as that's where they thought the gunshots were coming from. Had the idiot not shot his gun, the Kent State massacre may never have happened.

As usual, our government covering up the facts to protect their own assess.

 

[SFC Ollie]

The guardsmen were moving up the hill. away from the protesters. (This is all from memory now, and some of which was told me by my cousin who was a student there at the time)

They were being pelted with rocks and bricks.

Now it appears there were some shots fired ( Something that the guardsmen always claimed.)

The Guardsmen got near the top of the hill turned and were ordered to return fire. They had no Idea what their target was supposed to be. Many of the rounds were fired over the heads of the crowd.

It was a shame, and wrong on many levels. On all sides. If we had rubber bullets in 1970 it would have been a whole different story.

 

[José]

People

Ollie is a total phony... he's not a sergeant of the US Army as he claims to be.

He and his twin brother founded a blues/hard rock band more than 40 years ago.

 

[José]

 

[José]

Sorry Ollie.

Just pulling your beard

 

[SFC Ollie]

I could only dream.

But unfortunately i can't carry a tune in a bucket and people would pay me to not sing.

 

[JakeStarkey]

If I remember right, the take on this part of the story is not unknown. This is no new discovery. A person working undercover for the FBI at the rally as a journalist of some type was lawfully carrying a .38. In other words, he was not a protester. No other witness evidence indicates anyone else had the capability and the situation in which to open fire.

If I had been the NG commander and heard gunfire, I immediately would have ordered my troops to volley fire twice, and then continue retreating up the hill.

Edit: Having read more, I did not realize that 70 seconds had elapsed. That is far too long to be a reasonable factor in the NG commander's order to fire. Either something else occurred the which of we don't know, or the NG commander panicked.

 

[ConHog]

Do any of you know what the ROE were? It is likely that it took 70 seconds for the NG commander, a captain if I remember correctly, to get permission to return fire.

 

[syrenn]

interesting

 

[jillian]

Wouldn't be surprised if it's accurate, but why is this information only being learned now?

Because it isn't being "learned" now.

Seems like another attempt at revisionist history.

 

[Bullfighter]

On a recent show about General Curtis LeMay, who bombed Japan into submission, there was a story about how he was stopped by a police officer for speeding while trying to get to a meeting during the war.

The police office warned him "Slow down or you might kill somebody"

LeMay replied, "I kill thousands of people every day!"

 

[Gadawg73]

If the anti-war protesters hadn't been acting like idiots, rioting and destroying property in town, the Guard wouldn't have been called in.

That guard unit was undisciplined and were not under fire.
None of the injured and killed were armed and there were no claims from anyone with the guard that they were. There were 67 random shots from the guard. Many of the injured WERE NOT protesting anything but were students passing by and were not near the protestors. NOT all of the university was protesting.
Governor Rhodes called the protestors "worse than the Nazi brown shirts, we are up against the strongest,well trained militant revolutionary group ever assembled in America"
The stage was set for murder and it happened.
None of the guard were hit by rocks but a few campus police were. Bayonets were drawn from the start of this and the order to fire on unarmed students was issued as that is on tape.
William Knox Schroeder was killed as he passed by the protestors 50 feet away. He was a ROTC member. Average distance of those killed and injured by guard shooters=350 feet.

 

[ConHog]

If the anti-war protesters hadn't been acting like idiots, rioting and destroying property in town, the Guard wouldn't have been called in.

That guard unit was undisciplined and were not under fire.
None of the injured and killed were armed and there were no claims from anyone with the guard that they were. There were 67 random shots from the guard. Many of the injured WERE NOT protesting anything but were students passing by and were not near the protestors. NOT all of the university was protesting.
Governor Rhodes called the protestors "worse than the Nazi brown shirts, we are up against the strongest,well trained militant revolutionary group ever assembled in America"
The stage was set for murder and it happened.
None of the guard were hit by rocks but a few campus police were. Bayonets were drawn from the start of this and the order to fire on unarmed students was issued as that is on tape.
William Knox Schroeder was killed as he passed by the protestors 50 feet away. He was a ROTC member. Average distance of those killed and injured by guard shooters=350 feet.

You weren't there and likely have NEVER faced a hostile crowd , thank God you haven't, must be nice to Monday night QB 40 years later.

 

[daveman]

If the anti-war protesters hadn't been acting like idiots, rioting and destroying property in town, the Guard wouldn't have been called in.

That guard unit was undisciplined and were not under fire.
None of the injured and killed were armed and there were no claims from anyone with the guard that they were. There were 67 random shots from the guard. Many of the injured WERE NOT protesting anything but were students passing by and were not near the protestors. NOT all of the university was protesting.
Governor Rhodes called the protestors "worse than the Nazi brown shirts, we are up against the strongest,well trained militant revolutionary group ever assembled in America"
The stage was set for murder and it happened.
None of the guard were hit by rocks but a few campus police were. Bayonets were drawn from the start of this and the order to fire on unarmed students was issued as that is on tape.
William Knox Schroeder was killed as he passed by the protestors 50 feet away. He was a ROTC member. Average distance of those killed and injured by guard shooters=350 feet.

Yeah. Why was the Guard called in again?

 

[Gadawg73]

If the anti-war protesters hadn't been acting like idiots, rioting and destroying property in town, the Guard wouldn't have been called in.

That guard unit was undisciplined and were not under fire.
None of the injured and killed were armed and there were no claims from anyone with the guard that they were. There were 67 random shots from the guard. Many of the injured WERE NOT protesting anything but were students passing by and were not near the protestors. NOT all of the university was protesting.
Governor Rhodes called the protestors "worse than the Nazi brown shirts, we are up against the strongest,well trained militant revolutionary group ever assembled in America"
The stage was set for murder and it happened.
None of the guard were hit by rocks but a few campus police were. Bayonets were drawn from the start of this and the order to fire on unarmed students was issued as that is on tape.
William Knox Schroeder was killed as he passed by the protestors 50 feet away. He was a ROTC member. Average distance of those killed and injured by guard shooters=350 feet.

You weren't there and likely have NEVER faced a hostile crowd , thank God you haven't, must be nice to Monday night QB 40 years later.

You can accuse the FBI "Monday night QB" all you want but you have not done your homework, as usual.
Didn't have to be there. I read the FBI report Moe.
Everything I posted is from the FBI investigation.
Everything.
Nothing I posted was form anything other than their investigation.
I know as I DO THAT KIND OF WORK for 30 years.
Nice try though but not good enough. Try again.

 

[ConHog]

If the anti-war protesters hadn't been acting like idiots, rioting and destroying property in town, the Guard wouldn't have been called in.

That guard unit was undisciplined and were not under fire.
None of the injured and killed were armed and there were no claims from anyone with the guard that they were. There were 67 random shots from the guard. Many of the injured WERE NOT protesting anything but were students passing by and were not near the protestors. NOT all of the university was protesting.
Governor Rhodes called the protestors "worse than the Nazi brown shirts, we are up against the strongest,well trained militant revolutionary group ever assembled in America"
The stage was set for murder and it happened.
None of the guard were hit by rocks but a few campus police were. Bayonets were drawn from the start of this and the order to fire on unarmed students was issued as that is on tape.
William Knox Schroeder was killed as he passed by the protestors 50 feet away. He was a ROTC member. Average distance of those killed and injured by guard shooters=350 feet.

Yeah. Why was the Guard called in again?

That's the part they like to pretend didn't happen. FOUR DAYS of that shit before shots were fired. That speaks of restraint, not some wild assed Guard members thirsting for the kill.

 

[daveman]

That guard unit was undisciplined and were not under fire.
None of the injured and killed were armed and there were no claims from anyone with the guard that they were. There were 67 random shots from the guard. Many of the injured WERE NOT protesting anything but were students passing by and were not near the protestors. NOT all of the university was protesting.
Governor Rhodes called the protestors "worse than the Nazi brown shirts, we are up against the strongest,well trained militant revolutionary group ever assembled in America"
The stage was set for murder and it happened.
None of the guard were hit by rocks but a few campus police were. Bayonets were drawn from the start of this and the order to fire on unarmed students was issued as that is on tape.
William Knox Schroeder was killed as he passed by the protestors 50 feet away. He was a ROTC member. Average distance of those killed and injured by guard shooters=350 feet.

Yeah. Why was the Guard called in again?

That's the part they like to pretend didn't happen. FOUR DAYS of that shit before shots were fired. That speaks of restraint, not some wild assed Guard members thirsting for the kill.

You'll note that Gadawg skipped right over my question.

 

[Gadawg73]

If the anti-war protesters hadn't been acting like idiots, rioting and destroying property in town, the Guard wouldn't have been called in.

That guard unit was undisciplined and were not under fire.
None of the injured and killed were armed and there were no claims from anyone with the guard that they were. There were 67 random shots from the guard. Many of the injured WERE NOT protesting anything but were students passing by and were not near the protestors. NOT all of the university was protesting.
Governor Rhodes called the protestors "worse than the Nazi brown shirts, we are up against the strongest,well trained militant revolutionary group ever assembled in America"
The stage was set for murder and it happened.
None of the guard were hit by rocks but a few campus police were. Bayonets were drawn from the start of this and the order to fire on unarmed students was issued as that is on tape.
William Knox Schroeder was killed as he passed by the protestors 50 feet away. He was a ROTC member. Average distance of those killed and injured by guard shooters=350 feet.

Yeah. Why was the Guard called in again?

The Governor called the guard in. They had an FBI informant giving bad information as to who was on campus.
Read the FBI report as everything, EVERYTHING I posted was from that report.
Average distance of those shot by guard=350 feet.
None of the protestors was armed. None.
How can anyone advocate killing unarmed citizens protesting or not?