Nathan Bedford Forrest statue causing controversy

[bripat9643]

You are confused. Lincoln started no war. The traitors in SC shot first. THEY started the war.

I have proved that Lincoln started the war about 100 times in this thread, asshole.

You're a ******* liar. Lincoln hadn't even started his term when secession took place. Davis made the decision to start the War of Southern Aggression, after realizing that secession wouldn't hold without a war. Davis ordered the attack on Sumter. None of your "lost cause" or neoconfederate revisionism changes the facts.

I'll also add that you scumbags might have killed Abner Doubleday. Where would America be without our National pastime, baseball?

You keep repeating the same bullshit that's already been disposed of. When you can prove the Constitution doesn't allow secession, then you might have the beginnings of a case. However, you know you can't do that. All the evidence goes in the opposite direction. That's why you repeat the same bogus arguments over and over again.

 

[bripat9643]

I love Sherman's quote about Texas. "If I owned hell and Texas, I'd rent out Texas and live in hell."

I'm sure you do. You probably also like when Hitler said the following:

"The victor will never be asked if he told the truth."

 

[bripat9643]

You ignorant little pissant. Yes the rebs fired the first shot. Davis ordered them to, after realizing that secession wouldn't last without a war. He also realized that several other states would probably join the confederacy if he started that War Of Southern Aggression.

You're a ******* idiot.

Apparently you believe sovereign nations are obligated to allow foreign troops to occupy their territory. Any argument based on that theory is obvious idiocy.

 

[Dick Tuck]

Did Davis know that ordering an attack on Sumter would start a war? Yes.

"Mr. President, at this time it is suicide, murder, and will lose us every friend at the North. The firing upon that fort will inaugurate a civil war greater than any the world has yet seen." [Robert Toombs speaking to Jefferson Davis in confederate cabinet meeting, 11 April 1861, quoted in W. A. Swanberg, First Blood: The Story of Fort Sumter, p. 286]​

Was Fort Sumter federal property? Yes.

"South Carolina had ceded property in Charleston Harbor to the federal Government in 1805, upon the condition that “the United States... repair the fortifications now existing thereon or build such other forts or fortifications as may be deemed most expedient by the Executive of the United States on the same, and keep a garrison or garrisons therein” (The Statutes at Large of South Carolina, Volume V, page 501).​

From the South Carolina legislature:

"Committee on Federal Relations
In the House of Representatives, December 31st, 1836
"The Committee on Federal relations, to which was referred the Governor's message, relating to the site of Fort Sumter, in the harbour of Charleston, and the report of the Committee on Federal Relations from the Senate on the same subject, beg leave to Report by Resolution:

"Resolved, That this state do cede to the United States, all the right, title and claim of South Carolina to the site of Fort Sumter and the requisite quantity of adjacent territory, Provided, That all processes, civil and criminal issued under the authority of this State, or any officer thereof, shall and may be served and executed upon the same, and any person there being who may be implicated by law; and that the said land, site and structures enumerated, shall be forever exempt from liability to pay any tax to this state.

"Also resolved: That the State shall extinguish the claim, if any valid claim there be, of any individuals under the authority of this State, to the land hereby ceded.

"Also resolved, That the Attorney-General be instructed to investigate the claims of Wm. Laval and others to the site of Fort Sumter, and adjacent land contiguous thereto; and if he shall be of the opinion that these parties have a legal title to the said land, that Generals Hamilton and Hayne and James L. Pringle, Thomas Bennett and Ker. Boyce, Esquires, be appointed Commissioners on behalf of the State, to appraise the value thereof. If the Attorney-General should be of the opinion that the said title is not legal and valid, that he proceed by seire facius of other proper legal proceedings to have the same avoided; and that the Attorney-General and the said Commissioners report to the Legislature at its next session.

"Resolved, That this House to agree. Ordered that it be sent to the Senate for concurrence. By order of the House:
"T. W. Glover, C. H. R."
"In Senate, December 21st, 1836
"Resolved, that the Senate do concur. Ordered that it be returned to the House of Representatives, By order:
Jacob Warly, C. S."
​

continued....

 

[Dick Tuck]

Did the South use civilian workers at Sumter as hostages? Yes.

HARLESTON, April 2, 1861.
Hon. L. P. WALKER'
Captain Foster asks permission to send his mechanics and laborers from Sumter. Shall it be allowed? I am inclined to object.
G. T. BEAUREGARD,
Brigadier-General, Commanding.
MONTGOMERY, April 2, 1861.
General BEAUREGARD, Charleston:
No portion of the garrison must be permitted to leave unless all go.
L. P. WALKER.​

Did Davis know that the only way to maintain the confederacy was to start a war? Yes.

"Gentlemen, unless you sprinkle blood in the faces of the people of Alabama, they will be back in the old Union in less than ten days." - Gilchrist, member of the Alabama legislature

Davis immediately gave the order to attack Sumter.

 

[Dick Tuck]

You ignorant little pissant. Yes the rebs fired the first shot. Davis ordered them to, after realizing that secession wouldn't last without a war. He also realized that several other states would probably join the confederacy if he started that War Of Southern Aggression.

You're a ******* idiot.

Apparently you believe sovereign nations are obligated to allow foreign troops to occupy their territory. Any argument based on that theory is obvious idiocy.

When they cede, by law, property to the United States, and refuse to negotiate the return of that property, yes. Just like our bases around the world, on foreign soil, are regarded as our sovereign property. When the Philippines wanted us to leave, they negotiated our exit. They didn't start shelling Subic Bay.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The were US citizens, and when they took up arms, they became traitors.

That would have meant a trial, and the case would have ended up in the Supreme court where Lincoln and all his thugs would have lost. Secession is not treason. Nothing in the Constitution prevents it. The Union thugs didn't want to go down that road because they knew they would lose.

A US soldier taking up arms against the United States is treason.

The troops of SC were not U.S. soldiers, dipshit. They were citizens of SC which had seceded from the Union. Before you can prove treason, you have to prove the Constitution does not allow secession, and that is a claim no Yankee asshole wanted to take to court.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I just told you that your argements are full of shit, bripat.

You are loony, and don't know what you are talking about.

The South fired the first shot. Davis ordered the first shot fired after being told that secession wouldn't hold without a war. They started a civil war, and got their asses kicked.

Forrest was a war criminal who murdered POWs. He started a vigilante organization that's responsible for over 1,000 lynchings of African-Americans. But go ahead and worship this pig.

I just told you that argument doesn't wash. All you bloodthirsty Yankee assholes keep spouting he same flawed logic over and over again.

 

[Dick Tuck]

I love Sherman's quote about Texas. "If I owned hell and Texas, I'd rent out Texas and live in hell."

I'm sure you do. You probably also like when Hitler said the following:

"The victor will never be asked if he told the truth."

Sherman was a great man. He drove the traitors to the sea, and dismantled their ability to wage war, by destroying all supply lines to Richmond, from the South. Stoneman did the same, by cutting them off from the West.

Interesting that Sherman destroyed anything of use to the enemy in Georgia and South Carolina, and pretty much left North Carolina intact.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You have proved that Lincoln was right and that you are wrong, bripat.

You are confused. Lincoln started no war. The traitors in SC shot first. THEY started the war.

I have proved that Lincoln started the war about 100 times in this thread, asshole.

 

[JakeStarkey]

SC troops were foreign troops trying to conquer federal territory.

They were traitors and their leaders should have been hung immediately.

You ignorant little pissant. Yes the rebs fired the first shot. Davis ordered them to, after realizing that secession wouldn't last without a war. He also realized that several other states would probably join the confederacy if he started that War Of Southern Aggression.

You're a ******* idiot.

Apparently you believe sovereign nations are obligated to allow foreign troops to occupy their territory. Any argument based on that theory is obvious idiocy.

 

[Unkotare]

The comparison to Stalin is apt.

Ridiculous.

 

[Dick Tuck]

SC troops were foreign troops trying to conquer federal territory.

They were traitors and their leaders should have been hung immediately.

You ignorant little pissant. Yes the rebs fired the first shot. Davis ordered them to, after realizing that secession wouldn't last without a war. He also realized that several other states would probably join the confederacy if he started that War Of Southern Aggression.

You're a ******* idiot.

Apparently you believe sovereign nations are obligated to allow foreign troops to occupy their territory. Any argument based on that theory is obvious idiocy.

They weren't even SC troops. They were under direct orders from Davis and Secretary of War, Walker. Davis gave the order, not Governor Pickens. Also it was a Virginian, Edmund Ruffin, who fired the first shot, and that was before the state seceded.

It was also a Virginia legislator, Roger Pryor, who urged Davis to start a war. He said:

"Do not distrust Virginia. As sure as tomorrow's sun will rise upon us, just so sure will Virginia be a member of the Southern Confederacy. And I will tell you, gentlemen, what will put her in the Southern Confederacy in less than an hour by Shrewsbury clock—Strike a blow! The very moment that blood is shed, Old Virginia will make common cause with her sisters of the South."​

 

[The Gadfly]

He's certainly a documented war criminal, a racist, and a traitor.

Nathan B. Forrest is none of those, but Lincoln is everyone of those things.

I suggest you study up on the Fort Pillow massacre, where your idol executed captured black soldiers, and sent the white prisoners to Andersonville.

I already dealt with the question of what Forrest did and did not do at Ft. Pillow, citing the best evidence available from primary source material (as opposed to some later revisionist textbook). I can't help it if you couldn't be bothered with reading the truth, but I put it out there for you, along with directing anyone who cares to look to the appropriate pages in the Official Records. If you don't know how to use primary sources like the OR, you are simply an historical illiterate who does not know how to do your own historical research. Otherwise, you would know that what you stated above is nothing but Union propaganda from the time. The reports of Union personnel actually Present at Ft. Pillow on the day of the battle and the following day, as contained in the OR, are inconsistent, but the majority of them clearly show the accusations you made in this post to be unfounded. I think we can safely add intellectual sloth, along with anti-Southern bigotry and willful ignorance, to the long list of deficiencies you personally display on this board every day.

 

[The Gadfly]

The Union would always change over time, but the essential truth that we ARE a Union was preserved by President Lincoln - the greatest of all our Presidents.

Lincoln destroyed the union as it existed prior to the Civil War. Before Lincoln, the United States was a voluntary union of states. Afterwards, it was the same kind of Union as the Soviet Union, a collection of captive states.

If you were suffering in a Soviet State, would you stay or would you try to leave if you could?

If I were a Lithuanian, an Estonian, a Latvian, a Ukrainian or a Georgian, I'd want my occupied country back from the aggressor who took it; and guess what-they eventually GOT their countries back! One day, we'll get ours back, too! No empire lasts forever, and this one won't either!

 

[Dick Tuck]

Nathan B. Forrest is none of those, but Lincoln is everyone of those things.

I suggest you study up on the Fort Pillow massacre, where your idol executed captured black soldiers, and sent the white prisoners to Andersonville.

I already dealt with the question of what Forrest did and did not do at Ft. Pillow, citing the best evidence available from primary source material (as opposed to some later revisionist textbook). I can't help it if you couldn't be bothered with reading the truth, but I put it out there for you, along with directing anyone who cares to look to the appropriate pages in the Official Records. If you don't know how to use primary sources like the OR, you are simply an historical illiterate who does not know how to do your own historical research. Otherwise, you would know that what you stated above is nothing but Union propaganda from the time. The reports of Union personnel actually Present at Ft. Pillow on the day of the battle and the following day, as contained in the OR, are inconsistent, but the majority of them clearly show the accusations you made in this post to be unfounded. I think we can safely add intellectual sloth, along with anti-Southern bigotry and willful ignorance, to the long list of deficiencies you personally display on this board every day.

From a letter sent home, from a Confederate Sargent, Achilles Clark :

" "The slaughter was awful. Words cannot describe the scene. The poor, deluded, negroes would run up to our men, fall upon their knees, and with uplifted hands scream for mercy but they were ordered to their feet and then shot down. I, with several others, tried to stop the butchery, and at one time had partially succeeded, but General Forrest ordered them shot down like dogs and the carnage continued. Finally our men became sick of blood and the firing ceased."

Ward, Andrew (2005). River Run Red: The Fort Pillow Massacre in the American Civil War. Penguin Books. pp. 3. ISBN 978-1-4406-4929-5.

From a contemporaneous New York Times article:

The blacks and their officers were shot down, bayoneted and put to the sword in cold blood... . Out of four hundred negro soldiers only about twenty survive! At least three hundred of them were destroyed after the surrender! This is the statement of the rebel General Chalmers himself to our informant.

Richard Fuchs, An Unerring Fire: The Massacre At Fort Pillow (Mechanicsburg, PA: Stackpole, 2002) p84

Both rebels, and contemporaneous accounts.

 

[Dick Tuck]

Lincoln destroyed the union as it existed prior to the Civil War. Before Lincoln, the United States was a voluntary union of states. Afterwards, it was the same kind of Union as the Soviet Union, a collection of captive states.

If you were suffering in a Soviet State, would you stay or would you try to leave if you could?

If I were a Lithuanian, an Estonian, a Latvian, a Ukrainian or a Georgian, I'd want my occupied country back from the aggressor who took it; and guess what-they eventually GOT their countries back! One day, we'll get ours back, too! No empire lasts forever, and this one won't either!

Sumter was not occupied territory, moron. South Carolina ceded that property to the United States in 1836.

 

[bripat9643]

If you were suffering in a Soviet State, would you stay or would you try to leave if you could?

If I were a Lithuanian, an Estonian, a Latvian, a Ukrainian or a Georgian, I'd want my occupied country back from the aggressor who took it; and guess what-they eventually GOT their countries back! One day, we'll get ours back, too! No empire lasts forever, and this one won't either!

Sumter was not occupied territory, moron. South Carolina ceded that property to the United States in 1836.

They ceded the property rights, not the territorial rights. The laws and legal jurisdiction of SC still applied within the confines of Ft Sumter.

You bloodthirsty carpetbagger morons don't seem to understand the distinction between property and territory.

 

[bodecea]

If I were a Lithuanian, an Estonian, a Latvian, a Ukrainian or a Georgian, I'd want my occupied country back from the aggressor who took it; and guess what-they eventually GOT their countries back! One day, we'll get ours back, too! No empire lasts forever, and this one won't either!

Sumter was not occupied territory, moron. South Carolina ceded that property to the United States in 1836.

They ceded the property rights, not the territorial rights. The laws and legal jurisdiction of SC still applied within the confines of Ft Sumter.

You bloodthirsty carpetbagger morons don't seem to understand the distinction between property and territory.

Your idiot ancestors fired upon federal property. Your idiot ancestors started a war they lost. Your idiot ancestors fought that war FOR slavery. Your idiot ancestors got off easy afterwards. I see the fruit didn't fall far from the tree.

 

[Dick Tuck]

If I were a Lithuanian, an Estonian, a Latvian, a Ukrainian or a Georgian, I'd want my occupied country back from the aggressor who took it; and guess what-they eventually GOT their countries back! One day, we'll get ours back, too! No empire lasts forever, and this one won't either!

Sumter was not occupied territory, moron. South Carolina ceded that property to the United States in 1836.

They ceded the property rights, not the territorial rights. The laws and legal jurisdiction of SC still applied within the confines of Ft Sumter.

You bloodthirsty carpetbagger morons don't seem to understand the distinction between property and territory.

You lying piece of shit. They ceded the property to the United States. It was no longer part of South Carolina. The proviso that it's inhabitants abide by that State's law doesn't matter. Do you know what the word cede means, you ignorant slut? Here's the law enacted.

"Committee on Federal Relations
In the House of Representatives, December 31st, 1836
"The Committee on Federal relations, to which was referred the Governor's message, relating to the site of Fort Sumter, in the harbour of Charleston, and the report of the Committee on Federal Relations from the Senate on the same subject, beg leave to Report by Resolution:

"Resolved, That this state do cede to the United States, all the right, title and claim of South Carolina to the site of Fort Sumter and the requisite quantity of adjacent territory, Provided, That all processes, civil and criminal issued under the authority of this State, or any officer thereof, shall and may be served and executed upon the same, and any person there being who may be implicated by law; and that the said land, site and structures enumerated, shall be forever exempt from liability to pay any tax to this state.

"Also resolved: That the State shall extinguish the claim, if any valid claim there be, of any individuals under the authority of this State, to the land hereby ceded.

"Also resolved, That the Attorney-General be instructed to investigate the claims of Wm. Laval and others to the site of Fort Sumter, and adjacent land contiguous thereto; and if he shall be of the opinion that these parties have a legal title to the said land, that Generals Hamilton and Hayne and James L. Pringle, Thomas Bennett and Ker. Boyce, Esquires, be appointed Commissioners on behalf of the State, to appraise the value thereof. If the Attorney-General should be of the opinion that the said title is not legal and valid, that he proceed by seire facius of other proper legal proceedings to have the same avoided; and that the Attorney-General and the said Commissioners report to the Legislature at its next session.

"Resolved, That this House to agree. Ordered that it be sent to the Senate for concurrence. By order of the House:
"T. W. Glover, C. H. R."
"In Senate, December 21st, 1836
"Resolved, that the Senate do concur. Ordered that it be returned to the House of Representatives, By order:
Jacob Warly, C. S."