Myths, Hypotheses and Facts Concerning the Origin of Peoples

[Roudy]

...and no historical justification for a Jewish homeland in Palestine either

I don't think I'm the one. I've consistently said that the indigenous Palestinians and Jews are the same people with the same claims to the land. When it comes to land theft, I've only referred to that in terms of the occupied territories. I actually agree with this historian.

Please keep your people straight.

Nope, you got that upside down and ass backwards. He is saying there is no such thing as a Palestine, Palestinian people, or Palestinian history. The word "Palestinian" means JEWS (as I have repeatedly said before), and there is certainly no such thing as a "Palestinian Arab." So again, hearing it from the horse's mouth, AN ARAB HISTORIAN, Palestine is simply southern Syria, there is no distinction between them and the other Arabs.

That totally discredits your claims of a "Palestinian people" separate from their neighboring Arabs. Period end of story.

It descredits the Jews as well - they're the same people.

No it doesn't, because he never says there has never been a Jewish people, who lived in area. Pay attention. All he's saying is that the Jews who are migrating from outside, should not be allowed to call themselves Palestinians and have their own state. It's not up to him to make that call, the Jews fought and got their state, but he did get the part about the fraudulent Palestinian identity and history correct.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

It descredits the Jews as well - they're the same people.

Ms. Coyote, what you've just written is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your illogical, erroneous response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone on this message board is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

 

[Roudy]

It descredits the Jews as well - they're the same people.

Ms. Coyote, what you've just written is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your illogical, erroneous response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone on this message board is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

I know, she's now claiming that the Jews in Israel and the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians are the same. Phew!

 

[HistoryBefore67]

What about the Armenians and Christians? Same people too?

What about the Bedouins? Also the same?

How about the Italians? After all, their ancestors were Romans, and some of the Romans lived in Judea and Samaria. Also the same?

How about the camels?

The suggestion that the Jews and the "Palestinian" Arabs are the same people is insulting to the intelligence of every multi-celled organism on the planet.

 

[Roudy]

Again, going back to the OP of this thread and the initial response by the anti Israel crowd....Not one post has been put up to show that those quotes were out of context or that those individuals meant something else.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Yes, I agree... let's get this back on topic.

Whatever translation you believe is accurate, the quotes confirm that the term "Palestinian" is best described as a political designation created for the purpose of wagering a propaganda war against Israel.

I, of course, have known this all along.... but its nice to see a PLO official confirm the truth.

 

[José]

The first manifestations of Palestinian nationalism were "hidden" in the 50's and 60's because of the pan-arabist ideology.

Mainly because the palestinian national identity was still in its formative period but also because palestinian nationalists didn't want to lose Nasser's help (par-arabism's iconic figure).

 

[José]

All the leaders cited were pan-arabists.

 

[RoccoR]

Coyote, Roudy, et al,

Does this piece of the puzzle make any difference now?

Topic title: Myths, Hypotheses and Facts Concerning the Origin of Peoples
Why would I object to this?

How does it change the meaning? He said there is no Palestinian people or entity ever. It's a Zionist invention. ....

...and no historical justification for a Jewish homeland in Palestine either

... ... ... I actually agree with this historian.

Please keep your people straight.

(THOUGHT EXPERIMENT)

Set the conditions for the experiment:

• Time: 1947: The General Assembly Passes Resolution 181(II) believing the basic premise behind the San Remo Convention: "recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country."

• All intervening history remains unchanged.

• Time: 2013: New epiphany ---> The world and the General Assembly are convinced that there is now no historic connection between the Jewish People and the land, once Mandated as Palestine.

(QUESTION)

What would the UN do?

• Would they disassemble the Jewish State?
• Un-recognize the State of Israel?

(COMMENT)

It doesn't change anything. The outcome of today, is the outcome of today. There were still three Wars. There was still 50 years of terrorism. The Jewish Olympians are all still dead, the American Leon Klinghoffer is still dead (thrown overboard by Palestinian terrorists in the hijacking of the cruise ship Achille Lauro), the blood of American Robert Dean Stethem still stains the concrete in Beruit (shot in the head, his body dumped on the tarmac), Gail Rubin, niece of Senator Abraham Ribicoff, is still dead (shot to death by PLO terrorists on an Israeli beach), the body parts of Americans Anne Van Zanten and Grace Cutler, were still scattered all over the place (killed when the PLO bombed a Jewish restaurant in Paris), four Americans (sucked through a hole on a TWA flight from Rome made by the blast from a Fatah bomb) are all still dead. All those events, and many many more, still happened. It doesn't change the historical behaviors of the Hostile Arab/Palestinian, or make these (or any other death) justified.

Are we going to reward these terrorist efforts by giving some special recognition to the monsters?

Even if there was a big mistake, and the UN fouled-up, what does it change. Nothing! The HoAP still violated all those laws and many, many more. Just because the propaganda effort makes them look like a victim today, were they really the victim?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[José]

Originally posted by RoccoR
It doesn't change anything. The outcome of today, is the outcome of today. There were still three Wars. There was still 50 years of terrorism. The Jewish Olympians are all still dead, the American Leon Klinghoffer is still dead (thrown overboard by Palestinian terrorists in the hijacking of the cruise ship Achille Lauro), the blood of American Robert Dean Stethem still stains the concrete in Beruit (shot in the head, his body dumped on the tarmac), Gail Rubin, niece of Senator Abraham Ribicoff, is still dead (shot to death by PLO terrorists on an Israeli beach), the body parts of Americans Anne Van Zanten and Grace Cutler, were still scattered all over the place (killed when the PLO bombed a Jewish restaurant in Paris), four Americans (sucked through a hole on a TWA flight from Rome made by the blast from a Fatah bomb) are all still dead. All those events, and many many more, still happened. It doesn't change the historical behaviors of the Hostile Arab/Palestinian, or make these (or any other death) justified.

Are we going to reward these terrorist efforts by giving some special recognition to the monsters?

Even if there was a big mistake, and the UN fouled-up, what does it change. Nothing! The HoAP still violated all those laws and many, many more. Just because the propaganda effort makes them look like a victim today, were they really the victim?

These are the laws of mankind, invader...

Share the land you stole from us or be attacked with deadly force for as long as we see fit.

 

[Hossfly]

Originally posted by RoccoR
It doesn't change anything. The outcome of today, is the outcome of today. There were still three Wars. There was still 50 years of terrorism. The Jewish Olympians are all still dead, the American Leon Klinghoffer is still dead (thrown overboard by Palestinian terrorists in the hijacking of the cruise ship Achille Lauro), the blood of American Robert Dean Stethem still stains the concrete in Beruit (shot in the head, his body dumped on the tarmac), Gail Rubin, niece of Senator Abraham Ribicoff, is still dead (shot to death by PLO terrorists on an Israeli beach), the body parts of Americans Anne Van Zanten and Grace Cutler, were still scattered all over the place (killed when the PLO bombed a Jewish restaurant in Paris), four Americans (sucked through a hole on a TWA flight from Rome made by the blast from a Fatah bomb) are all still dead. All those events, and many many more, still happened. It doesn't change the historical behaviors of the Hostile Arab/Palestinian, or make these (or any other death) justified.

Are we going to reward these terrorist efforts by giving some special recognition to the monsters?

Even if there was a big mistake, and the UN fouled-up, what does it change. Nothing! The HoAP still violated all those laws and many, many more. Just because the propaganda effort makes them look like a victim today, were they really the victim?

These are the laws of mankind, invader...

Share the land you stole from us or be attacked with deadly force for as long as we see fit.

Cry havoc! and let slip the dogs of war, that this foul deed shall smell above the earth with carrion men, groaning for burial.
~~Shakespeare, William

 

[Hossfly]

Originally posted by RoccoR
It doesn't change anything. The outcome of today, is the outcome of today. There were still three Wars. There was still 50 years of terrorism. The Jewish Olympians are all still dead, the American Leon Klinghoffer is still dead (thrown overboard by Palestinian terrorists in the hijacking of the cruise ship Achille Lauro), the blood of American Robert Dean Stethem still stains the concrete in Beruit (shot in the head, his body dumped on the tarmac), Gail Rubin, niece of Senator Abraham Ribicoff, is still dead (shot to death by PLO terrorists on an Israeli beach), the body parts of Americans Anne Van Zanten and Grace Cutler, were still scattered all over the place (killed when the PLO bombed a Jewish restaurant in Paris), four Americans (sucked through a hole on a TWA flight from Rome made by the blast from a Fatah bomb) are all still dead. All those events, and many many more, still happened. It doesn't change the historical behaviors of the Hostile Arab/Palestinian, or make these (or any other death) justified.

Are we going to reward these terrorist efforts by giving some special recognition to the monsters?

Even if there was a big mistake, and the UN fouled-up, what does it change. Nothing! The HoAP still violated all those laws and many, many more. Just because the propaganda effort makes them look like a victim today, were they really the victim?

These are the laws of mankind, invader...

Share the land you stole from us or be attacked with deadly force for as long as we see fit.

Why not write an article about this in La Voz de Aztlan, José (or should I say Yousef since who really knows who's who around here). I am sure the readership would really enjoy a story like that. Meanwhile, I hope you include in your article (since most of the Hispanics are Catholics) how the Muslims invaded Egypt, forcing huge amounts of Christian Copts (who were some of the original followers of Jesus) to convert and killing many who refused, and now the descendents of these Christian Copts can't even practice their religion in peace nowadays without being hassled and/or murdered and their churches desecrated or destroyed. José is now going to tell us if the laws of mankind include killing people who have different religious beliefs than you have. By the way, José, who is the "us" when you state "Share the land you stole from us." I never was aware that there are Arabs who have the name of José.

 

[sealadaigh]

Actually, you're seem to be having a great problem understanding the meaning. The guy just said there is no "unique identity" of Palestinians. They are the same as their neighbors the Jordanians, Syrians, and Lebanese. Use of the term Palestinian is just a tactic to defeat the Zionists, and once they are defeated, the land will be united with JORDAN.

There ya go, the "national aspirations" of the Palestinians according to Muhsain: "we'll call ourselves Palestinians just to defeat the Jews, once we do that, we'll call ourselves JORDANIANS"! Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

exactly what part of a pan-arab nationalist movement are you failing to comprehend. that is the context to what is being quoted.

so let me get this straight. you are in agreement with what zahir muhsein is saying?

what exactly do you think this means...

"A separate Palestinian entity needs to fight for the national interest in the then remaining occupied territories. The Jordanian government cannot speak for Palestinians in Israel, Lebanon or Syria. Jordan is a state with specific borders. It cannot lay claim on - for instance - Haifa or Jaffa, while I AM entitled to Haifa, Jaffa, Jerusalem en Beersheba. Jordan can only speak for Jordanians and the Palestinians in Jordan. The Palestinian state would be entitled to represent all Palestinians in the Arab world en elsewhere. Once we have accomplished all of our rights in all of Palestine, we shouldn't postpone the unification of Jordan and Palestine for one second."

You having reading reading comprehension problems? This is from your own wikipedia:

Between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese there are no differences. We are all part of ONE people, the Arab nation. Look, I have family members with Palestinian, Lebanese, Jordanian and Syrian citizenship. We are ONE people. Just for political reasons we carefully underwrite our Palestinian identity. Because it is of national interest for the Arabs to advocate the existence of Palestinians to balance Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity exists only for tactical reasons. The establishment of a Palestinian state is a new tool to continue the fight against Israel and for Arab unity.

Once we have accomplished all of our rights in all of Palestine, we shouldn't postpone the unification of Jordan and Palestine for one second."

So, to recap, the guy is saying "Let's just make the Palestinians a unique people just for tactical reasons, once we ARABS WHO ARE THE SAME defeat Israel, then we can go ahead and call ourselves JORDANIANS."

Wow, some nationalist movement! Ha ha ha.

my reading comprehension is just fine, but that may because i read things in their entirety and do not omit the context within which they are said.

you may think your large red letters serve as context but you are stupid. they do not. the second paragraph from the article in the dutch paper provides that context.

you are also ridiculous. even were one to make the absurd assumption that zahir muhsein actually said that there was no such thing as palestinians and then make the even more absurd conclusion that such an statement consisted of some sort of proof to those of a feeble mind, what exactly do you, with all your omnipotent wisdom, do with the rest of the world, including israelis, who actually believe that such a people as the palestinians do exist.

christ, you are a stupid fook.

oh wait. what i meant to say is...

CHRIST, YOU ARE A STUPID FOOK!!!

i will let that one stand, with or without any context.

 

[Roudy]

The first manifestations of Palestinian nationalism were "hidden" in the 50's and 60's because of the pan-arabist ideology.

Mainly because the palestinian national identity was still in its formative period but also because palestinian nationalists didn't want to lose Nasser's help (par-arabism's iconic figure).

Really? Is that another of Jose Felicano's fantasies or do you have a link for this? And besides if the first "manifestations of Palestinian identity" was still in its FORMATIVE period in the 50's and 60's, then that still totally confirms that the Palestinians are just Arabs who created this mythical identity with no real history, uniqueness or basis for ownership of the land.

 

[Roudy]

Originally posted by RoccoR
It doesn't change anything. The outcome of today, is the outcome of today. There were still three Wars. There was still 50 years of terrorism. The Jewish Olympians are all still dead, the American Leon Klinghoffer is still dead (thrown overboard by Palestinian terrorists in the hijacking of the cruise ship Achille Lauro), the blood of American Robert Dean Stethem still stains the concrete in Beruit (shot in the head, his body dumped on the tarmac), Gail Rubin, niece of Senator Abraham Ribicoff, is still dead (shot to death by PLO terrorists on an Israeli beach), the body parts of Americans Anne Van Zanten and Grace Cutler, were still scattered all over the place (killed when the PLO bombed a Jewish restaurant in Paris), four Americans (sucked through a hole on a TWA flight from Rome made by the blast from a Fatah bomb) are all still dead. All those events, and many many more, still happened. It doesn't change the historical behaviors of the Hostile Arab/Palestinian, or make these (or any other death) justified.

Are we going to reward these terrorist efforts by giving some special recognition to the monsters?

Even if there was a big mistake, and the UN fouled-up, what does it change. Nothing! The HoAP still violated all those laws and many, many more. Just because the propaganda effort makes them look like a victim today, were they really the victim?

These are the laws of mankind, invader...

Share the land you stole from us or be attacked with deadly force for as long as we see fit.

As soon as you show us when and where the land was ever OWNED by these Arabs who call themselves Palestinians, mr Arab Muslim Palestinian guy who calls himself "Jose". Ha ha ha.

 

[Coyote]

Again, going back to the OP of this thread and the initial response by the anti Israel crowd....Not one post has been put up to show that those quotes were out of context or that those individuals meant something else.

Because half the quotes can't be found in their entirety. Perhaps you can supply them.

 

[Coyote]

What about the Armenians and Christians? Same people too?

What about the Bedouins? Also the same?

How about the Italians? After all, their ancestors were Romans, and some of the Romans lived in Judea and Samaria. Also the same?

How about the camels?

The suggestion that the Jews and the "Palestinian" Arabs are the same people is insulting to the intelligence of every multi-celled organism on the planet.

The Jews and the Palestinians are largely the same. They were both there prior to the reinvention of Israel. The same people. From the same source I quoted from before:

Sand argues that it is likely that the ancestry of most contemporary Jews stems mainly from outside the ancient Land of Israel and that a "nation-race" of Jews with a common origin never existed. Just as most contemporary Christians and Muslims are the progeny of converted people, not of the first Christians and Muslims, Judaism was originally, like its two cousins, a proselytising religion. Many of the present day world Jewish population are descendants of European, Russian and African groups.

According to Sand, the original Jews living in Israel, contrary to popular belief, were not exiled following the Bar Kokhba revolt.[16] Sand argues that most of the Jews were not exiled by the Romans, and were permitted to remain in the country. Many Jews converted to Islam following the Arab conquest, and were assimilated among the conquerors. He concludes that the progenitors of the Palestinian Arabs were Jews.[17] Sand writes that the story of the exile was a myth promoted by early Christians to recruit Jews to the new faith. They portrayed that event as a divine punishment imposed on the Jews for having rejected the Christian gospel. Sand writes that "Christians wanted later generations of Jews to believe that their ancestors had been exiled as a punishment from God."

 

[Coyote]

Coyote, Roudy, et al,

Does this piece of the puzzle make any difference now?

How does it change the meaning? He said there is no Palestinian people or entity ever. It's a Zionist invention. ....

...and no historical justification for a Jewish homeland in Palestine either

... ... ... I actually agree with this historian.

Please keep your people straight.

(THOUGHT EXPERIMENT)

Set the conditions for the experiment:

• Time: 1947: The General Assembly Passes Resolution 181(II) believing the basic premise behind the San Remo Convention: "recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country."

• All intervening history remains unchanged.

• Time: 2013: New epiphany ---> The world and the General Assembly are convinced that there is now no historic connection between the Jewish People and the land, once Mandated as Palestine.

(QUESTION)

What would the UN do?

• Would they disassemble the Jewish State?
• Un-recognize the State of Israel?

(COMMENT)

It doesn't change anything. The outcome of today, is the outcome of today. There were still three Wars. There was still 50 years of terrorism. The Jewish Olympians are all still dead, the American Leon Klinghoffer is still dead (thrown overboard by Palestinian terrorists in the hijacking of the cruise ship Achille Lauro), the blood of American Robert Dean Stethem still stains the concrete in Beruit (shot in the head, his body dumped on the tarmac), Gail Rubin, niece of Senator Abraham Ribicoff, is still dead (shot to death by PLO terrorists on an Israeli beach), the body parts of Americans Anne Van Zanten and Grace Cutler, were still scattered all over the place (killed when the PLO bombed a Jewish restaurant in Paris), four Americans (sucked through a hole on a TWA flight from Rome made by the blast from a Fatah bomb) are all still dead. All those events, and many many more, still happened. It doesn't change the historical behaviors of the Hostile Arab/Palestinian, or make these (or any other death) justified.

Are we going to reward these terrorist efforts by giving some special recognition to the monsters?

Even if there was a big mistake, and the UN fouled-up, what does it change. Nothing! The HoAP still violated all those laws and many, many more. Just because the propaganda effort makes them look like a victim today, were they really the victim?

Most Respectfully,
R

We rewarded the Jewish Terrorists such as Irgun and Sterns did we not? They recieved a nation, did they not? They bombed trains, market places, etc. They targeted and killed civilians who are just as dead as Anne Van Zanten and Grace Cutler. They were monsters, by your reckoning.

They got a state.

You can't unmake anything. You can't change what has been done. To do so would be inhumane. But likewise you can't ignore the fact that the Palestinians are a people NOW and they deserve a state and a homeland every bit as much as the Jews did. Whether anyone is a "real" people is irrelevent to NOW.

 

[Hossfly]

What about the Armenians and Christians? Same people too?

What about the Bedouins? Also the same?

How about the Italians? After all, their ancestors were Romans, and some of the Romans lived in Judea and Samaria. Also the same?

How about the camels?

The suggestion that the Jews and the "Palestinian" Arabs are the same people is insulting to the intelligence of every multi-celled organism on the planet.

The Jews and the Palestinians are largely the same. They were both there prior to the reinvention of Israel. The same people. From the same source I quoted from before:

Sand argues that it is likely that the ancestry of most contemporary Jews stems mainly from outside the ancient Land of Israel and that a "nation-race" of Jews with a common origin never existed. Just as most contemporary Christians and Muslims are the progeny of converted people, not of the first Christians and Muslims, Judaism was originally, like its two cousins, a proselytising religion. Many of the present day world Jewish population are descendants of European, Russian and African groups.

According to Sand, the original Jews living in Israel, contrary to popular belief, were not exiled following the Bar Kokhba revolt.[16] Sand argues that most of the Jews were not exiled by the Romans, and were permitted to remain in the country. Many Jews converted to Islam following the Arab conquest, and were assimilated among the conquerors. He concludes that the progenitors of the Palestinian Arabs were Jews.[17] Sand writes that the story of the exile was a myth promoted by early Christians to recruit Jews to the new faith. They portrayed that event as a divine punishment imposed on the Jews for having rejected the Christian gospel. Sand writes that "Christians wanted later generations of Jews to believe that their ancestors had been exiled as a punishment from God."

Unlike people of other factions, the Jews have gone into practically into every country in the world and assimilated into the society.However, unlike the other factions, Jews retained their integrity as a people in those countries. Almost like an island in a country. They don't mix with others. They are not the same as Arabs.

 

[Coyote]

What about the Armenians and Christians? Same people too?

What about the Bedouins? Also the same?

How about the Italians? After all, their ancestors were Romans, and some of the Romans lived in Judea and Samaria. Also the same?

How about the camels?

The suggestion that the Jews and the "Palestinian" Arabs are the same people is insulting to the intelligence of every multi-celled organism on the planet.

The Jews and the Palestinians are largely the same. They were both there prior to the reinvention of Israel. The same people. From the same source I quoted from before:

Sand argues that it is likely that the ancestry of most contemporary Jews stems mainly from outside the ancient Land of Israel and that a "nation-race" of Jews with a common origin never existed. Just as most contemporary Christians and Muslims are the progeny of converted people, not of the first Christians and Muslims, Judaism was originally, like its two cousins, a proselytising religion. Many of the present day world Jewish population are descendants of European, Russian and African groups.

According to Sand, the original Jews living in Israel, contrary to popular belief, were not exiled following the Bar Kokhba revolt.[16] Sand argues that most of the Jews were not exiled by the Romans, and were permitted to remain in the country. Many Jews converted to Islam following the Arab conquest, and were assimilated among the conquerors. He concludes that the progenitors of the Palestinian Arabs were Jews.[17] Sand writes that the story of the exile was a myth promoted by early Christians to recruit Jews to the new faith. They portrayed that event as a divine punishment imposed on the Jews for having rejected the Christian gospel. Sand writes that "Christians wanted later generations of Jews to believe that their ancestors had been exiled as a punishment from God."

Unlike people of other factions, the Jews have gone into practically into every country in the world and assimilated into the society.However, unlike the other factions, Jews retained their integrity as a people in those countries. Almost like an island in a country. They don't mix with others. They are not the same as Arabs.

They retain their religion. Arabs are an ethnic group. Jews are a religious group.