My JOB is to protect AMERICAN LIVES!!!!!!

[Psychoblues]

I'd be interested to know how you draw your conclusions, BaronVon Bigmeat. Your handle hints your inadequacies and low self esteem. Who were the progressives of 1905 and what exactly do you know about them? Surely you jest on your "Bigmeat" self inclusion to political argument?

I'm Psychoblues. This is a reflection of my brand of music. I start in Memphis with Elvis Presley and I go on to Jimi Hendrix, later the Sex-Pistols and even later to Creed. Although we lack a recognizeble pattern, we all agree that music is and should be "progressive." I also attribute the Psychoblues mantel as being different than Psychored as I think most on this board are. That's beside the point, BaronVonBigmeat. I think you represent an inflated view of yourself. What have you done for America or is your "Bigmeat" enough to satisfy only you??

Psychoblues

The progressives of 100 years ago led the march to tyranny. Under their watch, the foundation of the modern welfare/warfare state was laid, culminating in the completely senseless US participation in WWI. This opened the door to endless foreign interventionism, and provided an opportunty for communism and fascism to thrive. And the hostilities against Iraq were already underway before Bush was president. We just hadn't sacked Baghdad yet.

Also, I'm curious to know how american interference in Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Saudi Arabia, and Korea protected american lives and made america safer, any more than our war in Iraq.

 

[Psychoblues]

I know a couple dozen people who grew up there. I have an Iraqi friend whose entire family has been on cloud 9 since we hit Baghdad. Many of the tribes there don't, in fact, care about who's in power. However, most of the citizens are not tribe, and the Iraqis sure noticed when they were given outside access to the world and stopped playing the "who gets killed today" lottery.

Good for you, Hobbit!!!!! I know Iragi's that literally shat upon themselves at the very sight of American troops. They had no idea other than we had killed their crops, their livestock and many of their kinfolk. Are you listening to the expatriot Iraqi's that are running your local gas station or are you listening to the Iraqi's that are living in this American dream in Iraq as we promised them?

I'm no WAR protester, Hobbit. I damn sure did my part for MY COUNTRY and I don't regret a day of it. But, I know a little about Iraq, the middle-east in general and about propaganda. There will be no propaganda from the United States of America that will heal the present wounds in the middle-east.

Religion will defeat all opposition until religion itself is proven unsubstantiated. Until then, we will have religious wars and this is as much a religious war as it is an industrial necessisity, a national dilemma and a philisophical misunderstanding.

Typical and common Iraqi's held no grudge against Americans in 1991 and throughout the '90's. They certainly have reason for a grudge or as Republicans like to refer to as "insurgency" at this time.

Given similar parallels, I would fight to my death to defend my country, the United States Of America, and way of life against any invader that sought to arbitrarily change it. My service to my country is proof of that.


Psychoblues

 

[Avatar4321]

Get a religious compass. The Crusades didn't fare well with Christians. "Operation Crusades", as the present Iraqi intervention was originally named, will not fare well either. Think about it.

Actually the Crusades did fare well with Christian Europe. It was through the crusades that alot of the east to west trade began. It was through the crusades that alot of the scholars of the 12-13th centuries rediscovered the classical works of the greeks and romans that lead the the Renaissance.

Not to mention it did prevent Europe from falling into the hands of the Muslim Empires that destroyed the Byzantine Empire and ruled most of Spain. If it werent for the crusades to defend Europe from invasion Europe would more than likely speaking Arabic and we likely would never have existed because Columbus wouldnt have found the new world.

I think the secular "post-christian" west likes to look at the crusades as some Christian injustice. They seem to neglect that the crusades were a response to the invasion of Europe. Ironically these same revisionists are often supporters of socialism. And Socialism in its various forms such as facism and communism have been responsible for more deaths in half a century then any crusade was.

 

[Avatar4321]

Rep all you want, Katianne. Gem is as ignorant as you as far as the bedouin societies of the Mid-East are concerned. Most peoples there really don't know or have a reason to care who the powers that be happen to be. Even after thousands of years, even the religious fundamentalists there fail to create such an interest. But, you can bet your sweet tails that the Americans have their attention now as we destroy their crops, livestock, rivers, lakes, marketplaces or sense of individualities and self esteems.

When were you there last? Absense is Ingorance.

Psychoblues

Funny, how you completely ignore what Gem said and rather attack Kathianne. One would think if your position was so strong you would be able to actually defend criticisms in your analysis.

The fact is the Iraqi people know we have given them the gift of freedom. I wonder when the Bush haters such as you will realize it.

 

[Psychoblues]

So we fare well in the post Crusade period as you imply? You smoke a different weed than I, my friend.

Psychoblues

Actually the Crusades did fare well with Christian Europe. It was through the crusades that alot of the east to west trade began. It was through the crusades that alot of the scholars of the 12-13th centuries rediscovered the classical works of the greeks and romans that lead the the Renaissance.

Not to mention it did prevent Europe from falling into the hands of the Muslim Empires that destroyed the Byzantine Empire and ruled most of Spain. If it werent for the crusades to defend Europe from invasion Europe would more than likely speaking Arabic and we likely would never have existed because Columbus wouldnt have found the new world.

I think the secular "post-christian" west likes to look at the crusades as some Christian injustice. They seem to neglect that the crusades were a response to the invasion of Europe. Ironically these same revisionists are often supporters of socialism. And Socialism in its various forms such as facism and communism have been responsible for more deaths in half a century then any crusade was.

 

[Avatar4321]

So we fare well in the post Crusade period as you imply? You smoke a different weed than I, my friend.

Psychoblues

Maybe thats you're problem. You smoke weed.

 

[Hobbit]

Good for you, Hobbit!!!!! I know Iragi's that literally shat upon themselves at the very sight of American troops. They had no idea other than we had killed their crops, their livestock and many of their kinfolk. Are you listening to the expatriot Iraqi's that are running your local gas station or are you listening to the Iraqi's that are living in this American dream in Iraq as we promised them?

I'm no WAR protester, Hobbit. I damn sure did my part for MY COUNTRY and I don't regret a day of it. But, I know a little about Iraq, the middle-east in general and about propaganda. There will be no propaganda from the United States of America that will heal the present wounds in the middle-east.

Religion will defeat all opposition until religion itself is proven unsubstantiated. Until then, we will have religious wars and this is as much a religious war as it is an industrial necessisity, a national dilemma and a philisophical misunderstanding.

Typical and common Iraqi's held no grudge against Americans in 1991 and throughout the '90's. They certainly have reason for a grudge or as Republicans like to refer to as "insurgency" at this time.

Given similar parallels, I would fight to my death to defend my country, the United States Of America, and way of life against any invader that sought to arbitrarily change it. My service to my country is proof of that.


Psychoblues

First off, yes, I have been talking to those currently there through their relatives here. For every Iraqi I personally know, I have contact with a dozen that are still in the country. Second, the average Iraqis did hate us after '91 because when we came rolling in, they thought we'd go for the long haul and started a rebellion. When we didn't go the distance, it was the Bay of Pigs all over again and Saddam got another opportunity to test out those chemical weapons he *cough* never had.

 

[Psychoblues]

Maybe thats you're problem. You smoke weed.

I'm a tobacco addict. I don't deny that. Your weed is apparently much more revealing. What, pray tell, do you smoke?

Psychoblues

 

[Psychoblues]

Forced trade is not free trade and I further resent your analogy. The resentment of "Christian Europe" is exactly what founded this country, the United States Of America.

Americans believe in FREEDOM. That's a given. According to your argument, Americans must also embrace the inclinations of corporatism and the cold hands of law to protect wealthy warmongers despite the cries of the disenfranchised and otherwise working classes.

You have a point. I just don't agree with it.

Psychoblues

Actually the Crusades did fare well with Christian Europe. It was through the crusades that alot of the east to west trade began. It was through the crusades that alot of the scholars of the 12-13th centuries rediscovered the classical works of the greeks and romans that lead the the Renaissance.

Not to mention it did prevent Europe from falling into the hands of the Muslim Empires that destroyed the Byzantine Empire and ruled most of Spain. If it werent for the crusades to defend Europe from invasion Europe would more than likely speaking Arabic and we likely would never have existed because Columbus wouldnt have found the new world.

I think the secular "post-christian" west likes to look at the crusades as some Christian injustice. They seem to neglect that the crusades were a response to the invasion of Europe. Ironically these same revisionists are often supporters of socialism. And Socialism in its various forms such as facism and communism have been responsible for more deaths in half a century then any crusade was.

 

[Annie]

Forced trade is not free trade and I further resent your analogy. The resentment of "Christian Europe" is exactly what founded this country, the United States Of America.

Americans believe in FREEDOM. That's a given. According to your argument, Americans must also embrace the inclinations of corporatism and the cold hands of law to protect wealthy warmongers despite the cries of the disenfranchised and otherwise working classes.

You have a point. I just don't agree with it.

Psychoblues

Please define '...cries of the disenfranchised and otherwise working classes.' How does their 'cries' connected with 'the inclinations of corporatism and the cold hands of law to protect wealthy warmongers'? And what the heck would you suggest for an economic system?

 

[Psychoblues]

Your post really speaks for itself. You have no recognition of "the disenfranchised" or "otherwise working classes". I could offer a thousand page document describing and rectifying this dilemma. You, as is evident, do not recognise the dilemma. Therefore, my time, effort and concern is wasted with you, your compatriots (if you have any) or any future readers if thier only participation is dedicated to ideals such as you have demonstrated.

I am simply an American. I hold no grudge or particular favor to any other American. I believe in the principles laid out to me in Grammer School. Freedom, a Right to recourse, a hearing for justice and a demonstration of such by my GOVERNMENT. That's pretty much it with me, Kathianne.

Maybe someday we can do just like "Jaws" and compare scars and war stories?

Please define '...cries of the disenfranchised and otherwise working classes.' How does their 'cries' connected with 'the inclinations of corporatism and the cold hands of law to protect wealthy warmongers'? And what the heck would you suggest for an economic system?

 

[Annie]

Your post really speaks for itself. You have no recognition of "the disenfranchised" or "otherwise working classes". I could offer a thousand page document describing and rectifying this dilemma. You, as is evident, do not recognise the dilemma. Therefore, my time, effort and concern is wasted with you, your compatriots (if you have any) or any future readers if thier only participation is dedicated to ideals such as you have demonstrated.

I am simply an American. I hold no grudge or particular favor to any other American. I believe in the principles laid out to me in Grammer School. Freedom, a Right to recourse, a hearing for justice and a demonstration of such by my GOVERNMENT. That's pretty much it with me, Kathianne.

Maybe someday we can do just like "Jaws" and compare scars and war stories?

Translation: 'I have no answer. I claim to be a vet and you don't, "Stfu".'

 

[Annie]

Translation: 'I have no answer. I claim to be a vet and you don't, "Stfu".'

Some suggested reading for Psycho and his implied take on socialism:

http://www.willisms.com/archives/2005/11/trivia_tidbit_o_224.html

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/504

 

[Gunny]

Psychoblues Wrote:


I'm glad you think you are a wonderful person, defending the weak and protecting the poor. It sounds like you served the nation, and I thank you for that service...but touting it all the time is unneccessary. I have read about your service in several posts...we all get it... you can stop now.



The point of our further participation is to wait until we are at least somewhat assured that the Iraqi people are capable of controlling their nation without succumbing to the Islamic fundamentalists who are attacking them.



80% of the Iraqi people want US troops to leave. That is fact. The rest is your speculation. A quick look into their culture reveals that one of the main reasons they want us gone is pride. They are thrilled Saddam is gone and they know they could not have done it themselves...admitting that they needed the help of the US however, is not something that they will ever do.

Remaining to ensure the success of Iraq's new government must be done. For us as much as for them.



I'm glad that you admitted this was your opinion. To state that it was somehow true or factual would have made you look silly.



I agree with you wholeheartedly that both parties are not ideal. Bush's policy regarding Iraq and this war followed the policies of previous adminstrations. Democrats and Republicans alike discussed, debated, and then voted in favor of this war. If you are against it, then you should be an outright independent with no ties to either party. The Democrats and Republicans who supported this war before and who are opposing the war now are doing so only for political posturing.



Again, not argument here. However these facts have nothing to do with why we are in Iraq. It was not about 9/11...but rather about preventing another 9/11.

Additionally, you might want to go back and re-read the 9/11 Commission's Report: http://www.nationalreview.com/levin/levin200511181121.asp



This I find almost comical. Saddam Hussein had been the President of Iraq since 1979. You mean to tell me that some how MOST of the soldiers you met had no clue who was ruling their nation for over 25 years? Bullsh*t. Seen as "just another rich guy seeking to increase his worldwise power and personal wealth?" The fact that you would type something like this is nonsense. The man by 1991 had murdered thousands upon thousands of people...he had his men videotape it...you can watch many of the scenes of torture and murder yourself if you choose. People having their feet caned, people being fed to Doberman Pinchers, people being thrown from building tops, people being lowered, feet first, into commercial plastic shredders, doctors having their hands amputated...all while he, the President of Iraq, built palaces and offerred sanctuary to terrorists...his people knew him, Psycho, they knew him well.



WMD programs planned and able to be up and running as soon as the UN backed away. Nuclear physicists and nuclear materials being kept safe and ready for the moment he could start the programs anew. All of this confirmed by the Dueffler Report and others. Warnings from the rulers of Jordan and Egypt that Saddam had WMD and would use them, etc. etc. etc.

Even if we now know that Saddam did not have stockpiles of WMD at the ready...we DO know that he was able to make them and was waiting to do so. He was paying off the UN and if we had not acted the bribed officials would have convinced the UN to look away...and he would have started to produce. And when an American city was under a mushroom cloud in 2007 you would be at the forefront of the idiots screeching "WE KNEW SADDAM WANTED TO BUILD WMD IN 2003 AND YET BUSH DID NOTHING!!! IMPEACH HIM NOW!!!"

Dueffler himself stated that while no WMD were found it was more evident now than ever before that Saddam was a credible thread that needed to be removed. Yet you, and others like you, ignore it because it doesn't fit with your agenda....how sad.



I agree...trying to convert all of the Muslims in the world to Christianity by killing them and/or converting them would be a tragic, disgusting thing...I'm glad we aren't doing that.



Christians ARE embracing people of different religions. What/who they are NOT embracing are religious fundamentalists who will NEVER listen to quiet conversation...who want us and anyone who does not agree with their beliefs beheaded or, in the case of Israel, "driven into the sea forever."

The people we are speaking about, Psycho, would kill you just as quickly as they would kill me, or Stephanie, or a Christain baby. No amount of conversation will convince them otherwise, no amount of pandering will get through to them. They view compromise as weakness, hence why we sufferred the U.S.S. Cole, the embassy bombings, the 1st WTC bombing, and 9/11. The only option is to kill the fundamentalists and help the nations who are faced with them try to embrace a non-fundamentalist democracy. Are you getting my drift?



You say you are not for either party...that both parties lie...and yet here you are, when it is all said and done...endorsing the Democrats as the party that respects and protects Personal Freedoms. Are you just forgetful, Psycho? Or are you a liar?

Outstanding post. Once again, PsychoBabble is handed his ass, and once again, he's too dumb to figure it out.

 

[Avatar4321]

I'm a tobacco addict. I don't deny that. Your weed is apparently much more revealing. What, pray tell, do you smoke?

Psychoblues

Are you really this stupid?

Ill try to write in big letters so you understand.

I DON'T SMOKE ANYTHING.

It's obvious you are smoking some sort of weed. Else you wouldn't have said anything. But your projection of your own faults doesn't really benefit the conversation.

Oh btw your post on Forced trade has absolutely nothing to do with anything we discussed.

 

[manu1959]

Rep all you want, Katianne. Gem is as ignorant as you as far as the bedouin societies of the Mid-East are concerned. Most peoples there really don't know or have a reason to care who the powers that be happen to be. Even after thousands of years, even the religious fundamentalists there fail to create such an interest. But, you can bet your sweet tails that the Americans have their attention now as we destroy their crops, livestock, rivers, lakes, marketplaces or sense of individualities and self esteems.

When were you there last? Absense is Ingorance.

Psychoblues

you said iraqi soilders you had met and spoken to didn't know who sadam was.....now you divert the arguement to "bedouin societies" ..... don't let your own facts get in the way of a good argument

 

[Working Man]

Personal Freedom is what Democrats are about. We are not about the corporate and industrial freedoms to destroy all the rest of us.

Psychoblues[/QUOTE]
___________________________________________________________

First off, Democrats make me lose sleep when they are in office. They are the first to screw you when your guard is down. Chopping up the constitution to throw out sections they don't care for is a Democrat trait.

It isn't a Republican who forces an established US company to move out of the US because of local employment rules that favor lazy stupid people..

{{Not to say the George Bush is my savior, or his administration. We could have done better, and will concede this. But we could have done worse with somebody like Joe Lieberman's puppet (AKA Al Gore), or John Kerry.}}

As far as I am concerned, Bill Clinton, and that "ho" he married, set up the highspeed path for US jobs to be shipped to China. He had eight years to get his agenda done. We still lost out.

{{GWB is doing his part by driving the bus to Asia with the US manufacturing jobs in seats. }}

But, even knowing this, I would still be inclined to vote for a Republican who is pro-choice, respects the environment and its value, and would work to keep technology/jobs here in this country..

 

[Hobbit]

Personal Freedom is what Democrats are about. We are not about the corporate and industrial freedoms to destroy all the rest of us.

Psychoblues

___________________________________________________________

First off, Democrats make me lose sleep when they are in office. They are the first to screw you when your guard is down. Chopping up the constitution to throw out sections they don't care for is a Democrat trait.

It isn't a Republican who forces an established US company to move out of the US because of local employment rules that favor lazy stupid people..

{{Not to say the George Bush is my savior, or his administration. We could have done better, and will concede this. But we could have done worse with somebody like Joe Lieberman's puppet (AKA Al Gore), or John Kerry.}}

As far as I am concerned, Bill Clinton, and that "ho" he married, set up the highspeed path for US jobs to be shipped to China. He had eight years to get his agenda done. We still lost out.

{{GWB is doing his part by driving the bus to Asia with the US manufacturing jobs in seats. }}

But, even knowing this, I would still be inclined to vote for a Republican who is pro-choice, respects the environment and its value, and would work to keep technology/jobs here in this country..

Best way to bring back jobs is to abolish the originally unconstitutional income tax.

http://www.fairtax.org

 

[manu1959]

Best way to bring back jobs is to abolish the originally unconstitutional income tax.

http://www.fairtax.org

if you abolish taxes how do you see....fire department, police department, roads and basic city infrastructure being maintained and paid for?

 

[Annie]

if you abolish taxes how do you see....fire department, police department, roads and basic city infrastructure being maintained and paid for?

I'm not for the 'fair tax', but he is speaking of income tax. Those things are financed through property taxes.