Muslim woman strangled by her burkha in freak go-kart accident

[Againsheila]

Can you imagine having fun while wearing that kind of outfit? I must admit, it's beyond my imagination. I also said "I think", not "I know". As a kid, I wore jeans as much as possible and this was when girls wore dresses. Climbing trees in dresses is really hard, I think it must be impossible in a burka.

I'm sure that if you thought for a minute, you'd realize that "fun" is subjective and one person's idea of a good time may not be entirely consistent with another person's. You'd probably also realize that making assumptions about someone based on their appearance is silly. No aspect of Islam prevents a Muslim woman from wearing jeans or whatever type of clothing she wants as long as she safeguards her modesty.

Then why the burka? Climbing trees for me was the best part about being a kid. We climbed my grandfather's cherry tree. I felt so sorry for the boy in the wheelchair next door that my big brother and his friend hooked up a rope and pulley system and we hauled him into that tree, much to his mother's chagrin. I guess you could use a rope and pulley system on someone in a burka, but the hell we got from his mother made it so we wouldn't want to try it again.

The kid told me it was the best time he ever had.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

Modesty in behavior is more important than modesty in dress. As long as both sides are sensible, there shouldn't be this level of stupidity.


And since there seems to be a large variance in style from place to place, I think it is less a religious issue than a culture issue, and that culture is using religion to engage in misogyny. I am not multi cultural enough to think that a good idea.

 

[ekrem]

I often wondered how these ladies actually feel while wearing those. Some seem to wear them with an arrogant pride, others seem sad.
(...)

Some Muslim women live in a golden-glided cage, some in same situation without that golden part. And some - as you correctly observed - do it in an arrogant way.
Above paragraph in case of burka.

Normal head-scarfed women are pretty normal and don't have a mental barrier.
The non-headscrafed anyway.

 

[xsited1]

I hate when that happens

Muslim woman strangled by her burkha in freak go-kart accident | Mail Online

I don't want to sound unsympathetic, but I wonder if the go-kart is okay?

 

[Xenophon]

I hate when that happens

Muslim woman strangled by her burkha in freak go-kart accident | Mail Online

I don't want to sound unsympathetic, but I wonder if the go-kart is okay?

3 guys in pakistan want to cut it's head off.

 

[ekrem]

As a Muslim woman covering the hair is obligation.
You wear head-scarf only in public, at home with family and relatives you dont wear.
But when praying to Allah at home, you must also wear.

Link: Presidency of Religious Affairs

Burka kind of things seem to be overkill.

 

[ekrem]

Can women perform their prayers without wearing socks and headscarwes?

The privy parts of a woman are all the parts of the body except the hands, and the feet, and the faces, and for man are the parts between the belly and the knee cap. These places should be covered and not to be shown to foreigners both in the prayer and outside and the garments should not be transparent or so tight which shows the lines of the body, and thin which shows the skin.

...: T.C. DÝYANET ÝÞLERÝ BAÞKANLIÐI :...

 

[Anguille]

Is that subjective? What exactly does safeguarding her modesty entail?

It's subjective to an extent. At one end of the spectrum, you have people who believe that no part of a woman's skin should be exposed in public; at the other end, you have those who reject orthodox opinions regarding dress and assert that behavioral modesty is more important than modesty in appearance. It's a matter of interpretation and a decision that should ultimately rest with individual women.

That's how it is among my female Muslim friends. Some cover their heads to varying degrees, others do not. Even sisters dress differently according to what they feels is right for themselves. I don't know anyone who wears a burkha but I wish it was more accepted because I'd like to try wearing one myself on days I want to go to the supermarket and be able to concentrate on getting my shopping done quickly without having to listen to every talkative neighbor I run into.

 

[Munin]

Can women perform their prayers without wearing socks and headscarwes?

The privy parts of a woman are all the parts of the body except the hands, and the feet, and the faces, and for man are the parts between the belly and the knee cap. These places should be covered and not to be shown to foreigners both in the prayer and outside and the garments should not be transparent or so tight which shows the lines of the body, and thin which shows the skin.

...: T.C. DÝYANET ÝÞLERÝ BAÞKANLIÐI :...

So muslim woman should always wear headscarves when foreigners are close to them (able to see them), even in universities or official government buildings?

 

[Anguille]

Modesty in behavior is more important than modesty in dress. As long as both sides are sensible, there shouldn't be this level of stupidity.


And since there seems to be a large variance in style from place to place, I think it is less a religious issue than a culture issue, and that culture is using religion to engage in misogyny. I am not multi cultural enough to think that a good idea.

I agree.

Fun Fact : Among the Tuareg of the Sahara, it's the men cover who their heads and faces leaving only slits for the eyes. The women go bare headed or wear a loose scarf over their hair.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

One of the benefits of Lesbianism is they get to wear their hair at a sensible length. US guys are kind of weird about hair in a way that is to sick for the shrinks to investigate.

Lots of cultures regard feminine head hair as incendiary to fornication and adultery. East Europe and central Asia cultures all require head coverings. Even in Jewish culture, women are supposed to cover up their real hair, and goofiness of goofiness, wear a wig!?

Something really wrong with a culture that regards women as both sexual predators and sexual chattels.

 

[Si modo]

One of the benefits of Lesbianism is they get to wear their hair at a sensible length. US guys are kind of weird about hair in a way that is to sick for the shrinks to investigate.

Lots of cultures regard feminine head hair as incendiary to fornication and adultery. East Europe and central Asia cultures all require head coverings. Even in Jewish culture, women are supposed to cover up their real hair, and goofiness of goofiness, wear a wig!?

Something really wrong with a culture that regards women as both sexual predators and sexual chattels.

I suppose the young lady had a few choices: She could keep the burqa on and forget about having a bit of fun. Or, she could have safe fun in that ever-so-sexual act of riding a go-kart without a burqa and get stoned. Or, she could keep the burqa on and ride the go-kart with a chance of being injured or killed. Given that Islam limited her choices, I agree with her choice. It took her out, but at least she had a few moments of fun.

Oh, the joys of modesty in the Muslim mind.

 

[ekrem]

So muslim woman should always wear headscarves when foreigners are close to them (able to see them), even in universities or official government buildings?

Yes.
Islam demands Muslim women to cover their hair in public.
Off course it is the individual choice of a woman to follow.
Non-religious woman do not even face that choice.

To your link and university.
Earthly law come first.

 

[Munin]

So muslim woman should always wear headscarves when foreigners are close to them (able to see them), even in universities or official government buildings?

Yes.
Islam demands Muslim women to cover their hair in public.
Off course it is the individual choice of a woman to follow.
Non-religious woman do not even face that choice.

To your link and university.
Earthly law come first.

This is what I wondered about Turkish people: are they divided on this issue? As if they are truly nationalist "Turks" then they should be secularists, no?

What side are you on Ekrem? Attaturks side? Or Erdogans side?

 

[Munin]

So muslim woman should always wear headscarves when foreigners are close to them (able to see them), even in universities or official government buildings?

Yes.
Islam demands Muslim women to cover their hair in public.
Off course it is the individual choice of a woman to follow.
Non-religious woman do not even face that choice.

To your link and university.
Earthly law come first.

This is what I wondered about Turkish people: are they divided on this issue? Because if they are truly nationalist "Turks" then they should be secularists, no?

What side are you on Ekrem? Attaturks side? Or Erdogans side?

 

[PatekPhilippe]

So muslim woman should always wear headscarves when foreigners are close to them (able to see them), even in universities or official government buildings?

Yes.
Islam demands Muslim women to cover their hair in public.
Off course it is the individual choice of a woman to follow.
Non-religious woman do not even face that choice.

To your link and university.
Earthly law come first.

This is what I wondered about Turkish people: are they divided on this issue? Because if they are truly nationalist "Turks" then they should be secularists, no?

What side are you on Ekrem? Attaturks side? Or Erdogans side?

I understand the Islamic law that says women must cover their hair in public but I didn't know that the Turkish people wore the ultra conservative burka which to the best of my knowledge is associated exclusively with the Taliban.

 

[ekrem]

This is what I wondered about Turkish people: are they divided on this issue? As if they are truly nationalist "Turks" then they should be secularists, no?

What side are you on Ekrem? Attaturks side? Or Erdogans side?

There is no "Ataturk side" regarding the headscarf-ban in public buildings and universities.
This ban was introduced in early 1980's.

Majority of Turkish public is for equal rights of headscarfed women in state service and equal rights in higher education.
The debate in Turkey especially centers around University education for women.
Currently most of the headscarfed women in Higher education either take the head-scarf off at entrance of University or wear a peruke over the headscarf.
Many also leave the country to study abroad where no head-scarf ban exists.

With school levels under university age (high-school and so on), there is no debate regarding headscarf. Turkish public does not support sending headscarfed children and teenagers into school.

Women in university age, are Adults and in that age they already had access to earthly education in Turkish schools. In university age, the state should not meddle in in women's personal choices of religious lifestyle.

My personal opinion is, that the headscarf ban will be lifted. But they wont let the AKP do it.

(English language)
Detailed study of one of most serious polling companies in Turkey:
http://www.konda.com.tr/html/dosyalar/ghdl&t_en.pdf

 

[Munin]

This is what I wondered about Turkish people: are they divided on this issue? As if they are truly nationalist "Turks" then they should be secularists, no?

What side are you on Ekrem? Attaturks side? Or Erdogans side?

There is no "Ataturk side" regarding the headscarf-ban in public buildings and universities.
This ban was introduced in early 1980's.

Majority of Turkish public is for equal rights of headscarfed women in state service and equal rights in higher education.
The debate in Turkey especially centers around University education for women.
Currently most of the headscarfed women in Higher education either take the head-scarf off at entrance of University or wear a peruke over the headscarf.
Many also leave the country to study abroad where no head-scarf ban exists.

With school levels under university age (high-school and so on), there is no debate regarding headscarf. Turkish public does not support sending headscarfed children and teenagers into school.

Women in university age, are Adults and in that age they already had access to earthly education in Turkish schools. In university age, the state should not meddle in in women's personal choices of religious lifestyle.

My personal opinion is, that the headscarf ban will be lifted. But they wont let the AKP do it.

(English language)
Detailed study of one of most serious polling companies in Turkey:
http://www.konda.com.tr/html/dosyalar/ghdl&t_en.pdf

So I take it you re on erdogans side with regards to "religion versus secularism" (in general). But I m confused by what you post, as I always understood that Attaturk represented the secular Turkish state (meaning there should be areas that are neutral of religious influence like government buildings, schools, ... )

Then Atatürk carefully constructed and deployed a master plan, today known as the Kemalist ideology or Kemalism. Believing in this strategy Ataturk and his associates started to publicly question the value of religion and held the view religion was not compatible with modern science and secularism was imperative for modernity.

Ataturks reforms Ottoman Islamic TurkeyThus Ataturk regime began step by step to implement the Kemalist ideology with a radical reformation of the Turkish society with the aim of modernizing Turkey from the remnants of its Ottoman past. In line with their ideological convictions the Ataturk government abolished Islamic religious institutions; replace the Shariah law with adapted European legal codes; replaced the Islamic calendar with the Gregorian calendar; replace the Arabic script which was used to write the Turkish language with the Latin script and closed all religious schools.

In addition Ataturk took over the country’s 70,000 mosques and restricted the building of new mosques. Muftis and imams (prayer leaders) were appointed and regulated by the government, and religious instructions were taken over by the Ministry of National Education. Mosques were to preach according to the Ataturk’s dictates and were used to spread the Kemalist ideology.

For Sufi Muslims it was worse. Atatürk confiscated Sufi lodges, monasteries, meeting places and outlawed their rituals and meetings.

Turkey mosque muslim hijab girlAccording to Ataturk modernity was valued and represented as not wearing any religious dress or being non-religious. So he ordered what cloths Turkey’s citizens should wear. The traditional garb of local religious leaders was outlawed. The fez (Turkish hat) was banned for men and the veil and hijab (headscarves) were discouraged and restricted for women.

Atatürk and his colleagues even wanted to Turkify Islam. They ordered Muslims to use the Turkish word Tanri instead of Allah for God and use the Turkish language in Salaath (the 5 times prayers) and Azaan (the call for prayers). These preposterous changes deeply disturbed the faithful Muslims and caused widespread resentment, which led in 1933 to a return to the Arabic version of the call to prayer.

After some time the Atatürk regime moved towards more extreme measures. Ataturk prohibited religious education. The existing mosques were turned into museums or used for the regimes secular purposes.

Turkey oppress Kurds Sufi Sunni Shia IslamThe faithful Turkish and Kurdish Muslims be they Sunni, Shia or Sufi were powerless against Mustafa Kemal Ataturk’s regime and his military. But they tried to resist the oppression and even led rebellions. But he was too strong for them and Ataturk suppressed the rebellions after massive bloodsheds. (e.g. Seyh Sait rebellion in southeastern Turkey which claimed nearly 30,000 lives before being suppressed had its roots in religious grievances.)

Mustafa Kemal Ataturk died in 1938. After that some of his preposterous laws were revoked by his successors due to their harshness and the fact that Islam was always a strong force at the popular level despite the suppression.

How Ataturk Destroyed Islam in Turkey 1 MUSLIM NATION

Here I see there to be a great difference between religious "turks" (like erdogan) and secularist turks. I m not even sure a very religious turk can really be a "Turk" (meaning that he identifies with the state that attaturk created).

 

[Munin]

This is what I wondered about Turkish people: are they divided on this issue? As if they are truly nationalist "Turks" then they should be secularists, no?

What side are you on Ekrem? Attaturks side? Or Erdogans side?

There is no "Ataturk side" regarding the headscarf-ban in public buildings and universities.
This ban was introduced in early 1980's.

Majority of Turkish public is for equal rights of headscarfed women in state service and equal rights in higher education.
The debate in Turkey especially centers around University education for women.
Currently most of the headscarfed women in Higher education either take the head-scarf off at entrance of University or wear a peruke over the headscarf.
Many also leave the country to study abroad where no head-scarf ban exists.

With school levels under university age (high-school and so on), there is no debate regarding headscarf. Turkish public does not support sending headscarfed children and teenagers into school.

Women in university age, are Adults and in that age they already had access to earthly education in Turkish schools. In university age, the state should not meddle in in women's personal choices of religious lifestyle.

My personal opinion is, that the headscarf ban will be lifted. But they wont let the AKP do it.

(English language)
Detailed study of one of most serious polling companies in Turkey:
http://www.konda.com.tr/html/dosyalar/ghdl&t_en.pdf

I m confused, I always believed that Attaturk represented the secular Turkish state (meaning there should be areas that are neutral of religious influence lik government buildings, schools, ... )

Then Atatürk carefully constructed and deployed a master plan, today known as the Kemalist ideology or Kemalism. Believing in this strategy Ataturk and his associates started to publicly question the value of religion and held the view religion was not compatible with modern science and secularism was imperative for modernity.

Ataturks reforms Ottoman Islamic TurkeyThus Ataturk regime began step by step to implement the Kemalist ideology with a radical reformation of the Turkish society with the aim of modernizing Turkey from the remnants of its Ottoman past. In line with their ideological convictions the Ataturk government abolished Islamic religious institutions; replace the Shariah law with adapted European legal codes; replaced the Islamic calendar with the Gregorian calendar; replace the Arabic script which was used to write the Turkish language with the Latin script and closed all religious schools.

In addition Ataturk took over the country’s 70,000 mosques and restricted the building of new mosques. Muftis and imams (prayer leaders) were appointed and regulated by the government, and religious instructions were taken over by the Ministry of National Education. Mosques were to preach according to the Ataturk’s dictates and were used to spread the Kemalist ideology.

For Sufi Muslims it was worse. Atatürk confiscated Sufi lodges, monasteries, meeting places and outlawed their rituals and meetings.

Turkey mosque muslim hijab girlAccording to Ataturk modernity was valued and represented as not wearing any religious dress or being non-religious. So he ordered what cloths Turkey’s citizens should wear. The traditional garb of local religious leaders was outlawed. The fez (Turkish hat) was banned for men and the veil and hijab (headscarves) were discouraged and restricted for women.

Atatürk and his colleagues even wanted to Turkify Islam. They ordered Muslims to use the Turkish word Tanri instead of Allah for God and use the Turkish language in Salaath (the 5 times prayers) and Azaan (the call for prayers). These preposterous changes deeply disturbed the faithful Muslims and caused widespread resentment, which led in 1933 to a return to the Arabic version of the call to prayer.

After some time the Atatürk regime moved towards more extreme measures. Ataturk prohibited religious education. The existing mosques were turned into museums or used for the regimes secular purposes.

Turkey oppress Kurds Sufi Sunni Shia IslamThe faithful Turkish and Kurdish Muslims be they Sunni, Shia or Sufi were powerless against Mustafa Kemal Ataturk’s regime and his military. But they tried to resist the oppression and even led rebellions. But he was too strong for them and Ataturk suppressed the rebellions after massive bloodsheds. (e.g. Seyh Sait rebellion in southeastern Turkey which claimed nearly 30,000 lives before being suppressed had its roots in religious grievances.)

Mustafa Kemal Ataturk died in 1938. After that some of his preposterous laws were revoked by his successors due to their harshness and the fact that Islam was always a strong force at the popular level despite the suppression.

How Ataturk Destroyed Islam in Turkey 1 MUSLIM NATION

Here I see there to be a great difference between religious "turks" (like erdogan) and secularist turks. I m not even sure a very religious turk can really be a "Turk" (meaning that he identifies with the state that attaturk created).




Attaturk:

I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government; it is as if he would catch his people in a trap. My people are going to learn the principles of democracy, the dictates of truth and the teachings of science. Superstition must go. Let them worship as they will; every man can follow his own conscience, provided it does not interfere with sane reason or bid him against the liberty of his fellow-men.

Religion is an important institution. A nation without religion cannot survive. Yet it is also very important to note that religion is a link between Allah and the individual believer. The brokerage of the pious cannot be permitted. Those who use religion for their own benefit are detestable. We are against such a situation and will not allow it. Those who use religion in such a manner have fooled our people; it is against just such people that we have fought and will continue to fight. Know that whatever conforms to reason, logic, and the advantages and needs of our people conforms equally to Islam. If our religion did not conform to reason and logic, it would not be the perfect religion, the final religion.

Erdogan:

The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers

 

[ekrem]

Here I see there to be a great difference between religious "turks" (like erdogan) and secularist turks. I m not even sure a very religious turk can really be a "Turk" (meaning that he identifies with the state that attaturk created).

Ataturk did not ban head-scarf or - like shown below - the türban (Turkish calling of the below).

Latife Hanim, Ataturk's wife.

These are the 2 laws regarding clothes during Ataturk's reign
Archive of State
.gov.tr 13/12/1934 - 2879
.gov.tr 25/11/1925 - 230

It is in Turkish language, just believe me, there is not mentioned anything like headscarf or so.


Role of Sharia: A Fault Line in Turkish Society
Gallup asked Turks whether they think Sharia should influence legislation.
Just 7% of Turks say Sharia must be the only source, 26% say it must be a source, and 41% say it should not be a source.

Turks see religious and democratic values as compatible. Furthermore, Turks' attitudes toward the associations with the headscarf suggest that the decision to wear a headscarf is a personal one, based in faith and not in ideology.

Headscarves and Secularism: Voices From Turkish Women

I m not even sure a very religious turk can really be a "Turk" (meaning that he identifies with the state that attaturk created).

First, we would have to define about how many people we talk about that classify to your quote.
In my view, there is not rejection by even the most hardcore Islamist, but disagreement.
The rift here is clearly on the university head-scarf issue. It is a never ending debate.
But Turks don't bomb each other over this issue. It is heated debate but civil.
The core understandment of the headscarf-ban has shifted into being a question of liberty.


In the end, everyone is happy to be born as Turkish citizen and not be born in Falluja, Torabora mountains.
Turkish people, including the small part of hardcore Islamists have hope into the future.
In foreign policy there is common sense under Turks.
All support integration of the Muslim periphery under Turkish guidance and a common economic market with them.