Muslim to Christian convert may be executed

[theim]

You mean to tell me that when Muslims are allowed to vote, they quite often vote for theocratic fundamentalist government?

Well I never!

Honestly, if you're going to invade with some high-minded notion of making a backwards country into a beacon of tolerance and secular enlightenment, then please just drop the democracy rhetoric. Letting these people vote is the last thing you want. You might as well be honest and let them know they are a conquered province who is going to be getting British-style top-down instructions in the ways of proper governance. Speaking of which, this reminds me of a story I read somewhere, about when the British first arrived in India.

British officer: I say good sir, what in the devil is going on over there?

Indian: Oh, that is a funeral. The widow is going to be burned on the funeral pyre for her dead husband. It is our tradition.

British officer: No, I don't think we'll be doing that.

Indian: But sir, in our culture, this is expected.

British officer: Oh...yes. Well, in my culture we hang chaps for doing this sort of thing.

It really does make one question whether Islam is just plain incompatable with Democracy.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

RWA, you seem like a nice guy, well sorta. But you definitely have some anger management issues. Maybe you should talk to somebody or join a support group or something. :baby4: :baby4: :baby4:

Anger only ends up hurting the person who feels it. It can consume you.

Carpe Diem!

I'm not angry. I can just recognize foolishness when I see it. Quibbling over slogans is silly.

 

[Nuc]

I'm not angry. I can just recognize foolishness when I see it. Quibbling over slogans is silly.

Really? If words have no meaning then why do you spend so much time typing this stuff on the computer?

Slogans have no meaning? There is an author you need to aquaint yourself with. His name is George Orwell. Ever heard of him? :duh3:

This is all a part of my "War on 'Wars'".

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Really? If words have no meaning then why do you spend so much time typing this stuff on the computer?

Slogans have no meaning? There is an author you need to aquaint yourself with. His name is George Orwell. Ever heard of him? :duh3:

This is all a part of my "War on 'Wars'".

Words have meaning. I never said they didn't. But criticizing the slogan is not an effective policy critique, yet you presented it as such.

 

[Nuc]

Words have meaning. I never said they didn't. But criticizing the slogan is not an effective policy critique, yet you presented it as such.

Why is it not? Don't you think "It takes a village" is idiotic? Haven't you ridiculed it?

If they are trying to implement policy through bogus and misleading slogans it's reasonable to criticize it.

This happens on both left and right, so don't take it personally. :chains:

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Why is it not? Don't you think "It takes a village" is idiotic? Haven't you ridiculed it?

If they are trying to implement policy through bogus and misleading slogans it's reasonable to criticize it.

This happens on both left and right, so don't take it personally. :chains:

Yes that's an idiotic slogan.

Do you have a problem with the policy re: the war on terror? WIll you be happy if we stay the course, yet call it Bertha?

 

[Nuc]

Yes that's an idiotic slogan.

Do you have a problem with the policy re: the war on terror? WIll you be happy if we stay the course, yet call it Bertha?

I have a lot of problems with the "War on Terror"

I think we should stop letting fundamentalist Moslems (or maybe all Moslems) immigrate until the thing is resolved.

I think they should search Arabs and Moslems at the airport, not me or little old ladies in wheelchairs.

:ali:

There are a lot of stupid things about the way they are conducting the "War on Terror". Which makes me wonder whether they really want to win it. Which in turn makes me question why they call it the "War on Terror", rather than the "War on Al Qaeda" which is what it should have been.

My conclusion is that they call it "War on Terror" so that it will never end and they can keep the public in a constant state of anxiety and use that to further their other political goals as well as line the pockets of their buddies in the "defense" (another misnomer) industry.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I have a lot of problems with the "War on Terror"

I think we should stop letting fundamentalist Moslems (or maybe all Moslems) immigrate until the thing is resolved.

I think they should search Arabs and Moslems at the airport, not me or little old ladies in wheelchairs.

:ali:

There are a lot of stupid things about the way they are conducting the "War on Terror". Which makes me wonder whether they really want to win it. Which in turn makes me question why they call it the "War on Terror", rather than the "War on Al Qaeda" which is what it should have been.

My conclusion is that they call it "War on Terror" so that it will never end and they can keep the public in a constant state of anxiety and use that to further their other political goals as well as line the pockets of their buddies in the "defense" (another misnomer) industry.

Unfortunately we have to deal with idiotic libs who are so misguided they want the U.S. to fail. Lib placation explains a lot of your criticism, which I agree with.

I would stick to your actual criticisms of policy than get off on the meritless "what they call it" argument.

 

[kgoodwin10]

This is a test in a fledgling democracy. You hope and pray for this man's freedom and safety, but even if he is sent free he will likely be killed if he isn't given safe haven out of the country.

Remember our history. Those of us that are yelling for troop withdrawal and suspension of aid should consider the consequences for those actions. These people really don't understand the concept of Democracy, or the responsibility. This war against Muslim radicalism is going to last longer than our life time. After all it took us nearly 400 years to get it figured out for ourselves, and that's assuming we've got it figured out. Sometimes you have to wonder.

We have to make it clear to Afghanistan that Democracy protects all people. If they fail this test their needs to be serious consequences and condemnation. But the world community can't pull out or withhold support. It would be like selling the bicycle after your son or daughter fell off for the first time.

 

[insein]

It really does make one question whether Islam is just plain incompatable with Civilization.

There fixed it.

 

[Annie]

Links at site:

http://www.deanesmay.com/posts/1143399880.shtml

Instapundit says that Abdul Rahman, the man who was prosecuted in Afghanistan for converting to Christianity, has had his case dismissed. We'll see if that's true or not.

Still, there were those who said this entire case is illustrative of how evil Islam is, and how awful the intervention there has been. What utter nonsense. Had this poor bast*rd been caught by the Taliban, he'd have been summarily executed by a kangaroo court. We likely wouldn't even know his name, or we would have had to find it out through Amnesty International rather than the Associated Press.

Instead, while we may not approve of putting someone on trial for his religious beliefs, at least this guy got judged by a real court, in full public scrutiny, with a defense attorney, AND, the elected government of Afghanistan felt that it should answer to not just its nearby theocratic neighbors, but, also to its fellow democratic nations, including governments from places like France, Germany, Canada, the United States, and the United Kingdom.

Think on it: President Karzai of Afghanistan actually felt the need to take phone calls on this matter from the Canadian Prime Minister. And the American Secretary of State. And the German Prime Minster. And the leaders of many other democratic nations. And he felt the need to take their concerns seriously. And he felt the need to assure them all that this man would not be executed. All of which actually happened within the last 72 hours.

Read that all as an indictment of the eville moooslims if you like. I read it as a country that is emerging at astonishing speed from the 12th century into the 21st.

Update: The Associated Press reports:

WASHINGTON — Afghanistan's prosecution of a man who converted from Islam to Christianity shows how a fledgling democracy struggles to recognize individual rights, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Sunday.

Afghanistan is "going through one of the most difficult debates that any society goes through, and that is the proper role of religion in the politics of the state," she said.

Well said.

 

[Adam's Apple]

It really does make one question whether Islam is just plain incompatable with Democracy.

Good possibility that your questioning is on the right track. I don't think we're going to know in our lifetimes, but the possibility is great that Sharia law and the freedoms guaranteed in a democracy just don't mix. Today's experiments in Afghanistan and Iraq are the only way we are going to know for sure.

Here's an article you might be interested in.

Masking Terror
By Diana West, The Washington Times
March 24, 2006

http://www.washingtontimes.com/op-ed/dwest.htm

 

[Annie]

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1772877

Afghan Christian Seeking Asylum

KABUL, Afghanistan Mar 27, 2006 (AP)— An Afghan man who faced the death penalty for converting from Islam to Christianity has appealed for asylum in another country, the United Nations said Monday. U.N. spokesman Adrian Edwards said the world body was working with the Afghan government to meet the request by Abdul Rahman, 41.

"Mr. Rahman has asked for asylum outside Afghanistan," Edwards said. "We expect this will be provided by one of the countries interested in a peaceful solution to this case."

Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

 

[manu1959]

i hear that he has been ruled insane and will go free..............

 

[archangel]

i hear that he has been ruled insane and will go free..............

a blessing in disguise...Islam can now declare all the West as insane...this way they would not have to waste so many of their young on suicide bombers...they will be free to rebuild their own country...hoo rah!

 

[Annie]

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1772877

Not a joke. I thought most of the posters here were Christians. Are you looking to create martyrs? If so, you are murderers.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060328/ap_on_re_as/afghan_christian_convert

Christian Convert Said Freed From Prison

By AMIR SHAH, Associated Press Writer 27 minutes ago

KABUL, Afghanistan - An Afghan man who had faced the death penalty for converting from Islam to Christianity has been released from prison after the case was dropped, the justice minister said Tuesday.

The announcement came after the
United Nations said Abdul Rahman has appealed for asylum outside
Afghanistan and that the world body was working to find a country willing to take him.

Justice Minister Mohammed Sarwar Danish told The Associated Press that the 41-year-old was released from the high-security Policharki prison on the outskirts of Kabul late Monday.

"We released him last night because the prosecutors told us to," he said. "His family was there when he was freed, but I don't know where he was taken."

Deputy Attorney General Mohammed Eshak Aloko told the AP that prosecutors had issued a letter calling for Rahman's release because "he was mentally unfit to stand trial." He also said he did not know where he was being held.

He said Rahman may be sent overseas for medical treatment.

Hours earlier, hundreds of clerics, students and others chanting "Death to Christians!" marched through the northern Afghan Mazar-i-Sharif to protest the court's decision Sunday to dismiss the case.

"Abdul Rahman must be killed. Islam demands it," said senior Cleric Faiez Mohammed, from the nearby northern city of Kunduz. "The Christian foreigners occupying Afghanistan are attacking our religion."

Several Muslim clerics have threatened to incite Afghans to kill Rahman if he is freed, saying that he is clearly guilty of apostasy and deserves to die.

Rahman, 41, was arrested last month after police discovered him with a Bible. He was put on trial last week for converting 16 years ago while he was a medical aid worker for an international Christian group helping Afghan refugees in Pakistan. He had faced the death penalty under Afghanistan's Islamic laws.

The case set off an outcry in the United States and other nations that helped oust the hard-line Taliban regime in late 2001 and provide aid and military support for Afghan President Hamid Karzai.
President Bush and others insisted Afghanistan protect personal beliefs.

U.N. spokesman Adrian Edwards said Rahman has asked for asylum "outside Afghanistan."

"We expect this will be provided by one of the countries interested in a peaceful solution to this case," he said.

No country has yet offered asylum to Rahman, said an official familiar with the case who declined to be named because of its sensitivity.

 

[Annie]

Why now? Why Afghanistan? Something is weird:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060328/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_religious_freedom

Conversion Prosecutions Rare to Muslims

By JASPER MORTIMER, Associated Press Writer Mon Mar 27, 7:07 PM ET

CAIRO, Egypt - In the Middle East, Jordan is known as a tolerant country, but when a Muslim man converted to Christianity two years ago, a court convicted him of apostasy, took away his right to work and annulled his marriage.
ADVERTISEMENT

Such prosecutions are rare — because they're hardly ever needed. The law heavily discourages — or outright forbids — conversion by Muslims in most nations in the region. But weighing against it even more heavily are the powerful influences of family and society.

The sensitivity of the issue is highlighted by the case of an Afghan man who faced the death penalty for converting from Islam to Christianity — creating an outcry in the United States and other nations, which pressured
Afghanistan for his release.

After an Afghan court dropped the charges against Abdul Rahman, 41, Muslim clerics threatened to incite people to kill him and hundreds demonstrated against the court decision.

But Afghanistan isn't the only U.S.-allied government where Muslim converts to Christianity are threatened with execution.

Saudi Arabia neither permits conversion from Islam nor allows other religions in the kingdom. There are no churches and missionaries are barred. Regular criticism in U.S. State Department reports on religious freedom have had no effect on Saudi policy.

While Islam accepts Christianity as a fellow monotheistic religion, Islamic Sharia law considers conversion to any religion apostasy and most Muslim scholars agree the punishment is death. Saudi Arabia considers Sharia the law of the land, though there have been no reported cases of executions of converts from Islam in recent memory.

The only other nation in the region which carries the death penalty for apostasy is Sudan. Though no executions have been reported recently, a Sudanese man who allegedly converted was arrested in 2004 and reportedly tortured in custody, according to the State Department.

In Kuwait, a court convicted a Shiite Muslim man who publicly proclaimed his conversion to Christianity, but didn't sentence him since the criminal code did not set a punishment.

Other countries in the region, such as Egypt, do not have laws criminalizing apostasy, but those who do convert can still face prosecution.

In May, an Egyptian man who converted to Christianity was arrested on suspicion of "contempt for religion," a charge that entails a prison sentence of up to five years, said Hossam Bahgat, director of the Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights. The man, who has not been identified, remains in custody without charge, Bahgat said.

Authorities in Egypt and most other Arab countries will not recognize a conversion from Islam in official documents, such as identity papers, which usually state a person's faith.

Even if a convert is not prosecuted, "the issue is the pressure they are going to face from their families, the religious establishment, their friends and associates," said Fadi al-Qadi, a Middle East spokesman for York-based Human Rights Watch. "It would be overwhelming. They would be really isolated."

There are exceptions. In strongly secular Turkey, a convert can walk into a Demographic Records office, sign a declaration saying they have converted from Islam to Christianity and leave an hour later with a new identity card reflecting the change. While Islam is the religion of 99 percent of Turkey's 71 million people, it has no official religion.

"Turkey is a democratic country and, according to law, you can choose whatever you want," said Soner Tufan, himself a convert from Islam, who runs a Christian radio station, Radio Shema, in the capital, Ankara.

But, he said, "if someone converts, they can suffer some problems from their friends, relatives and neighbors" — or face difficulties getting a job in the civil service.

In predominantly Jewish
Israel, clerics of the three main religions — Judaism, Islam and Christianity — frown on members of their flocks converting, but they welcome converts from the other religions. The state has laws against missionary activities among Jews, but it does not punish converts.

In Tunisia and Algeria, the Islamic authorities take a dim view of conversion but the secular governments do not prohibit it and it does occur.

Most often, the issue of conversion reaches the courts in the context of marriage. While Islam accepts a Muslim man marrying a Christian woman — one of the Prophet Muhammad's wives was Christian — it does not tolerate a Muslim woman marrying a Christian man.

The November 2004 case of a Jordanian man convicted of apostasy came after his wife — who remained Muslim — and her family reported he had converted.

The man, whom the court records did not identify, appealed his conviction to a higher court but lost.

Often Palestinian women seeking a divorce accuse their husbands of converting to prompt a court to nullify the marriage, according to Sheik Taissir Tamimi, the head of the Islamic court in the
West Bank and Gaza. Usually, the husband pleads innocent and the case is dismissed, Tamimi said.

In Lebanon, where Christians are estimated at about 35 percent of the population, the state does not forbid a change of religion, but the Muslim authorities do, and they will not perform a wedding between Christian men and Muslim women.

Often Muslim and Christian Lebanese have a civil wedding in Cyprus and then register as married on their return to Lebanon. This became so popular that in the 1990s the Cabinet approved a bill that would have legalized secular marriage in Lebanon.

But the bill was killed by opposition from the religious authorities.

 

[Annie]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060329/ap_on_re_as/afghan_christian_convert

Afghan Lawmakers Demand Convert Be Held

By DANIEL COONEY, Associated Press Writer 12 minutes ago

Afghanistan's parliament demanded Wednesday that the government prevent a man who faced the death penalty for abandoning Islam for Christianity from being able to flee the country.

Abdul Rahman, 41, was released from prison Monday after a court dropped charges of apostasy against him because of a lack of evidence and suspicions he may be mentally ill. President Hamid Karzai had been under heavy international pressure to drop the case.

Rahman was released from the high-security Policharki prison on the outskirts of the capital late Monday. Justice Minister Mohammed Sarwar Danish said Tuesday that Rahman was staying at a "safe location" in Kabul.

His current whereabouts are unknown but he likely is still in the country.

The Italian government granted asylum to Rahman after Muslim clerics called for his death.

Afghan lawmakers debated the issue Wednesday and said Rahman should not be allowed to leave the country. However, they did not take a formal vote on the issue.

"We sent a letter and called the Interior Ministry and demanded they not allow Abdul Rahman to leave the country," parliamentary speaker Yunus Qanooni told reporters on behalf of the entire body.

Interior Ministry officials could not immediately be reached for comment.

Rahman was put on trial last week for converting 16 years ago while he was a medical aid worker for an international Christian group helping Afghan refugees in Pakistan. He was carrying a Bible when arrested and faced the death penalty under Afghanistan's Islamic laws.

The case caused an outcry in the United States and other nations that helped oust the hard-line Taliban regime in late 2001 and provide aid and military support for Karzai.

Muslim clerics condemned Rahman's release, saying it was a "betrayal of Islam," and threatened to incite violent protests.

Some 500 Muslim leaders, students and others gathered Wednesday in a mosque in southern Qalat town and criticized the government for releasing Rahman, said Abdulrahman Jan, the top cleric in Zabul province.

He said the government should either force Rahman to convert back to Islam or kill him.

"This is a terrible thing and a major shame for Afghanistan," he said.

Rahman has appealed to leave Afghanistan, and the United Nations has been working to find a country willing to take him.

Italian Premier Silvio Berlusconi said Rome would be happy to give asylum to Rahman. His Cabinet granted asylum later Wednesday.

"I say that we are very glad to be able to welcome someone who has been so courageous," Berlusconi said.

Italy has close ties with Afghanistan, whose former king, Mohammed Zaher Shah, was allowed to live in exile in Rome with his family for 30 years. The former royals returned to Kabul after the Taliban fell.

The United States and Germany welcomed Rahman's release from prison.

"Obviously it's good news that he has been released," White House press secretary Scott McClellan said.

Germany, a major donor to Afghanistan that has about 2,000 troops in the NATO security force, also expressed satisfaction.

"I think this is a sensible signal to the international community but also for the situation in Afghanistan," German Chancellor Angela Merkel said.

 

[Annie]

Links at site:

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/004870.htm

ABDUL RAHMAN HAS LANDED
By Michelle Malkin · March 29, 2006 11:49 AM

Just in:

An Afghan Christian convert, who had faced the death penalty in his country for abandoning Islam, has arrived in Italy which has offered him asylum, Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi said on Wednesday.

"He is already in Italy," Berlusconi told a news conference in Rome.

But others have been left behind at the mercy of the jihadist lynch mob:

US-based Christian news source, Compass Direct, reports that more Christians have been arrested for their faith in Afghanistan in the wake of the release of Abdul Rahman. Compass, a news service that tracks persecution of Christians mostly in Islamic countries, says harassment of the Christian community has been stepped up.

Compass says two more Christian converts have been arrested in other parts of the country, but further information is being withheld in the “sensitive situation” caused by the international media furor over Rahman.

Reports of beatings and police raids on the homes of Christians are filtering out of the country through local Christian ministers...

 

[CSM]

Links at site:

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/004870.htm

The argument for nuking such places off the map becomes strengthened every time something like this happens. How does one deal with such a neolithic philosophy? Tolerance has proved futile with these people; their ideals are at direct odds with democratic philosophy.