Murder rate drops as Gun sales soar.

[CMike]

What is so difficult to understand?

If you are a criminal in Washington, D.C., you know that virtually nobody can legally carry a firearm, therefore, there is little risk robbing someone in the street. Thus, violent crime is greater.

If you are a criminal in Michigan, you know that it's legal for those that get a Concealed Pistol's License to carry a handgun, therefore, you know that if you try and rob someone in Michigan there is a greater likelihood that you make get shot and killed. Therefore, crime is less.

An armed society is a polite society.

Yet Detroit Michigan has one of the highest rates of murder....

There's also another factor to consider - if you (the criminal) know almost anyone can carry a weapon then.....why not shoot first and take what you want?

And as I already posted the violent crime statistics went down about 15% in Michigan since it liberalized concealed carry laws.

 

[Coyote]

What is so difficult to understand?

If you are a criminal in Washington, D.C., you know that virtually nobody can legally carry a firearm, therefore, there is little risk robbing someone in the street. Thus, violent crime is greater.

If you are a criminal in Michigan, you know that it's legal for those that get a Concealed Pistol's License to carry a handgun, therefore, you know that if you try and rob someone in Michigan there is a greater likelihood that you make get shot and killed. Therefore, crime is less.

An armed society is a polite society.

Yet Detroit Michigan has one of the highest rates of murder....

There's also another factor to consider - if you (the criminal) know almost anyone can carry a weapon then.....why not shoot first and take what you want?

And as I already posted the violent crime statistics went down about 15% in Michigan since it liberalized concealed carry laws.

Can you prove that the decrease is caused by relaxing gun laws? If so - why do many cities with strict conceal carry laws have a lower crime rate than cities who don't have it?

Crime rate statistics:

Violent crime in the U.S. - overall - has been declining since 1991


Then, look at the cities:

Honolulu with it's extremely low rate of violent crime also has very strict gun control laws.

 

[CMike]

Baltimore and Washington D.C. have very strict gun laws. Also as I showed violent crime in Michigan dropped about 15% since the laws were liberalized for carrying concealed pistols.

Your statistics are working against you.

 

[Coyote]

Baltimore and Washington D.C. have very strict gun laws. Also as I showed violent crime in Michigan dropped about 15% since the laws were liberalized for carrying concealed pistols.

Your statistics are working against you.

Go back to my earlier post: http://www.usmessageboard.com/2371424-post70.html

The top two cities for homocide are New Orleans and St. Louis, both in states with liberal gun laws. The top 3 for violent crime overall are St. Louis, Oakland, and Memphis.


Now, lets talk about statistics....because, at best they are inconsistent when supporting a case for liberalizing hand gun laws and reducing crime.

 

[CMike]

These are important videos for people to see.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzyTXqxVojc]YouTube - Woman Uses Handgun to Shoot Invader[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ExC7fE1LaY]YouTube - 911 Caller With Gun in Home Invasion[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYN2jneLpsU&feature=related]YouTube - Man Uses Shotgun to Protect Home[/ame]

According to the stats that I posted americans use firearms for self defensive about 2.5 million times/year in the US.

 

[CMike]

Baltimore and Washington D.C. have very strict gun laws. Also as I showed violent crime in Michigan dropped about 15% since the laws were liberalized for carrying concealed pistols.

Your statistics are working against you.

Go back to my earlier post: http://www.usmessageboard.com/2371424-post70.html

The top two cities for homocide are New Orleans and St. Louis, both in states with liberal gun laws. The top 3 for violent crime overall are St. Louis, Oakland, and Memphis.


Now, lets talk about statistics....because, at best they are inconsistent when supporting a case for liberalizing hand gun laws and reducing crime.

As I showed violent crime went down about 15% since Michigan liberalized it's gun ownership rights laws in 2001.

 

[The Rabbi]

Yet Detroit Michigan has one of the highest rates of murder....

There's also another factor to consider - if you (the criminal) know almost anyone can carry a weapon then.....why not shoot first and take what you want?

And as I already posted the violent crime statistics went down about 15% in Michigan since it liberalized concealed carry laws.

Can you prove that the decrease is caused by relaxing gun laws? If so - why do many cities with strict conceal carry laws have a lower crime rate than cities who don't have it?

Crime rate statistics:

Violent crime in the U.S. - overall - has been declining since 1991


Then, look at the cities:

Honolulu with it's extremely low rate of violent crime also has very strict gun control laws.

Try compariung apples to apples instead of apples to truck tires.
It is perfectly valid to compare Detroit pre-carry to Detroit post carry. It is not valid to compare Detroit to Orlando.

 

[CMike]

The saying I like best is...

When seconds count, the police are minutes away...

 

[Yukon.]

Using the twisted logic presented in this thread if every nation in the world is given nuclear weapons and the means (missiles) to delivery them to any target then the world will be safer. That makes a lot of sense. Increase nuclear stockpiles and tyhe world will be safer.

I bet if America were to give Iran, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, and Saudia nuclear weapons Israel would be so much safer. Right ?

 

[CMike]

You anti-gun ownership rights people, you really want to be the victim, defenseless?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3vWsa4ags]YouTube - 911 Caller Without Gun in Home Invasion[/ame]

 

[CMike]

This is important information.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsxbn3-2ohg&NR=1&feature=fvwp]YouTube - Protecting yourself from a home invasion with Michael Bane[/ame]

 

[GunsBeerFreedom]

I am still curious about Rightwinger's question: Can you explain why we still have five times the murder rate of countries that don't have open gun ownership?

No one in the "pro-gun" lobby seems to answer it.

It certainly isn't because of guns. Latest FBI stats show around 60% of homicides are committed with guns. So if we erased every single one of those, we'd still have 40% of our current homicide rate, or around double that of the next country in line.

Now lets look at a parallel; England. Despite their draconian gun control laws, their murder rate has stayed the same, and indeed rose over the past 5 years. But ignoring that, even when they had virtually no gun control laws what so ever, they still had about the same rate per capita back in 1900 (give or take 2%).

Correlation does not imply causation. I.E. the drop in our murder rate is not necessarily related to the increase in gun ownership. And by the same token, the rise on Englands murder rate is not indicative of their harsh gun control.

That isn't to say guns don't save lives however. Various studies (someone mentioned Gary Keleck) show that between 800,000 (DOJ study) and 2,400,000 people use a firearm defensively every year. 97% of which, don't involve a death, and 90% don't involve any shots fired at all. Now even taking the lowest number (the DOJ study), that's about 35-1 DGU's to murders.

 

[The Rabbi]

Using the twisted logic presented in this thread if every nation in the world is given nuclear weapons and the means (missiles) to delivery them to any target then the world will be safer. That makes a lot of sense. Increase nuclear stockpiles and tyhe world will be safer.

I bet if America were to give Iran, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, and Saudia nuclear weapons Israel would be so much safer. Right ?

Aren't you the same Jew-hating asshole with the Arafat avatar?

Anyway, it is a great analogy. Because Iran, Syria, etc are demonstrably not law abiding countries. So they should not have nuclear weapons. The U.S., Britain, France etc are law abiding countries and have had nuclear weapons for 50 years without an incident.

 

[The Rabbi]

I am still curious about Rightwinger's question: Can you explain why we still have five times the murder rate of countries that don't have open gun ownership?

No one in the "pro-gun" lobby seems to answer it.

It certainly isn't because of guns. Latest FBI stats show around 60% of homicides are committed with guns. So if we erased every single one of those, we'd still have 40% of our current homicide rate, or around double that of the next country in line.

Now lets look at a parallel; England. Despite their draconian gun control laws, their murder rate has stayed the same, and indeed rose over the past 5 years. But ignoring that, even when they had virtually no gun control laws what so ever, they still had about the same rate per capita back in 1900 (give or take 2%).

Correlation does not imply causation. I.E. the drop in our murder rate is not necessarily related to the increase in gun ownership. And by the same token, the rise on Englands murder rate is not indicative of their harsh gun control.

That isn't to say guns don't save lives however. Various studies (someone mentioned Gary Keleck) show that between 800,000 (DOJ study) and 2,400,000 people use a firearm defensively every year. 97% of which, don't involve a death, and 90% don't involve any shots fired at all. Now even taking the lowest number (the DOJ study), that's about 35-1 DGU's to murders.

Ya know, even if none of those numbers were actually true (and I believe they are) it wouldn't matter. The U.S. Constitution gives the right to "keep and bear arms". It is a right. It doesn't matter if it is bad for society or not.

 

[GunsBeerFreedom]

Also, since someone mentioned Detroit....

Detroit has one of the highest crime rates in the nation, but also has one of the highest felons per capita rates in the nations. I.E. people who are not allowed to be around guns what so ever.

 

[GunsBeerFreedom]

Ya know, even if none of those numbers were actually true (and I believe they are) it wouldn't matter. The U.S. Constitution gives the right to "keep and bear arms". It is a right. It doesn't matter if it is bad for society or not.

I don't use all my arguments at once. The numbers one is what I consider my weakest.

 

[CMike]

As the videos show real people avoided tragedy because they had a firearm.

 

[Coyote]

Baltimore and Washington D.C. have very strict gun laws. Also as I showed violent crime in Michigan dropped about 15% since the laws were liberalized for carrying concealed pistols.

Your statistics are working against you.

Go back to my earlier post: http://www.usmessageboard.com/2371424-post70.html

The top two cities for homocide are New Orleans and St. Louis, both in states with liberal gun laws. The top 3 for violent crime overall are St. Louis, Oakland, and Memphis.


Now, lets talk about statistics....because, at best they are inconsistent when supporting a case for liberalizing hand gun laws and reducing crime.

As I showed violent crime went down about 15% since Michigan liberalized it's gun ownership rights laws in 2001.

But you have NOT shown a cause and effect: correlation doesn't equal causation.

I also showed you that violent crime rates have gone down nationally over that same period of time - are you suggesting that Michigan's liberalizing hand gun laws have reduced crime nationally? I don't think you can make a case for that.

 

[Coyote]

And as I already posted the violent crime statistics went down about 15% in Michigan since it liberalized concealed carry laws.

Can you prove that the decrease is caused by relaxing gun laws? If so - why do many cities with strict conceal carry laws have a lower crime rate than cities who don't have it?

Crime rate statistics:

Violent crime in the U.S. - overall - has been declining since 1991


Then, look at the cities:

Honolulu with it's extremely low rate of violent crime also has very strict gun control laws.

Try compariung apples to apples instead of apples to truck tires.
It is perfectly valid to compare Detroit pre-carry to Detroit post carry. It is not valid to compare Detroit to Orlando.

I am asking why do many cities with strict conceal carry laws have a lower crime rate than cities who don't have it?? If liberalizing gun laws has such a dramatic effect in reducing crime - and that is the claim being made than other cities with similar laws should be seeing similar results and we should be seeing higher crime rates in cities with strict laws but we aren't.

Now, if you are suggesting that maybe other factors are involved in changes in crime rates, then that weakens any claim that hand gun laws are responsible for lowering rates.

 

[Coyote]

I am still curious about Rightwinger's question: Can you explain why we still have five times the murder rate of countries that don't have open gun ownership?

No one in the "pro-gun" lobby seems to answer it.

It certainly isn't because of guns. Latest FBI stats show around 60% of homicides are committed with guns. So if we erased every single one of those, we'd still have 40% of our current homicide rate, or around double that of the next country in line.

Now lets look at a parallel; England. Despite their draconian gun control laws, their murder rate has stayed the same, and indeed rose over the past 5 years. But ignoring that, even when they had virtually no gun control laws what so ever, they still had about the same rate per capita back in 1900 (give or take 2%).

Correlation does not imply causation. I.E. the drop in our murder rate is not necessarily related to the increase in gun ownership. And by the same token, the rise on Englands murder rate is not indicative of their harsh gun control.

That is what I keep saying - but both sides try to use crime rate statistics to boost their claims.

That isn't to say guns don't save lives however. Various studies (someone mentioned Gary Keleck) show that between 800,000 (DOJ study) and 2,400,000 people use a firearm defensively every year. 97% of which, don't involve a death, and 90% don't involve any shots fired at all. Now even taking the lowest number (the DOJ study), that's about 35-1 DGU's to murders.

Good post