Multiverse Fantasy (Goofiness Feigning Science)

[ChemEngineer]

That nebula in the OP, if that's what it even is very likely does not look like that up close. We don't know how the universe works and I can tell you that in space the speed of light is extremely slow. The only thing IMO that may one day open up the stars to us is a much greater understanding of physics. Some postulate the existence of many different membranes or branes, where physical laws are different than our own. For example in one brane the constant of C or the speed of light could be several thousand times the speed it travels at in our home brane, making star travel very attainable. Physics may very well take up to the stars in this way, some say.

Tell readers how to get "up close" to nebulas millions of light years away. I'm sure they'd be amused at your suggestion.

These "branes" you speak of constitute the Multiverse Fantasy. Also amusing.
You voted for Bernie Sanders, didn't you.

 

[miketx]

That nebula in the OP, if that's what it even is very likely does not look like that up close. We don't know how the universe works and I can tell you that in space the speed of light is extremely slow. The only thing IMO that may one day open up the stars to us is a much greater understanding of physics. Some postulate the existence of many different membranes or branes, where physical laws are different than our own. For example in one brane the constant of C or the speed of light could be several thousand times the speed it travels at in our home brane, making star travel very attainable. Physics may very well take up to the stars in this way, some say.

Tell readers how to get "up close" to nebulas millions of light years away. I'm sure they'd be amused at your suggestion.

These "branes" you speak of constitute the Multiverse Fantasy. Also amusing.
You voted for Bernie Sanders, didn't you.

No, I voted for Trump. Sorry you don't like differing opinions. Perhaps you should consider stop being a rino.

 

[james bond]

ooh I am fascinated by this.

How was the Bible discovered?

I don't have the complete story, as there's probably argument over it, but it came together in pieces. Here is a general guideline.

"The formation of the Bible began with the 10 Commandments
The earliest collection of written words from God was the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments form the beginning of the biblical canon. God himself wrote on two tablets of stone the words which he commanded his people:

“And he gave to Moses, when he had made an end of speaking with him upon Mount Sinai, the two tables of the testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God” (Exodus 31:18). Again we read, “And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables” (Exodus 32:16, see also Deuteronomy 4:13 and 10:4). The tablets were deposited in the ark of the covenant (Deuteronomy 10:5) and constituted the terms of the covenant between God and his people."

Here is the beginning -- Where Did the Bible Come From? | Zondervan Academic

Then came the Old Testament -- How Did We Get the Old Testament? | Zondervan Academic

Afterward came the Dead Sea Scroll and New Testament -- The Dead Sea Scrolls and the New Testament

ooh I am fascinated by this.

How was the Bible discovered?

I don't have the complete story, as there's probably argument over it, but it came together in pieces. Here is a general guideline.

"The formation of the Bible began with the 10 Commandments
The earliest collection of written words from God was the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments form the beginning of the biblical canon. God himself wrote on two tablets of stone the words which he commanded his people:

“And he gave to Moses, when he had made an end of speaking with him upon Mount Sinai, the two tables of the testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God” (Exodus 31:18). Again we read, “And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables” (Exodus 32:16, see also Deuteronomy 4:13 and 10:4). The tablets were deposited in the ark of the covenant (Deuteronomy 10:5) and constituted the terms of the covenant between God and his people."

Here is the beginning -- Where Did the Bible Come From? | Zondervan Academic

Then came the Old Testament -- How Did We Get the Old Testament? | Zondervan Academic

Afterward came the Dead Sea Scroll and New Testament -- The Dead Sea Scrolls and the New Testament

The Dead Sea Scrolls and the New Testament

The Dead Sea Scrolls and the New Testament

So the Bible was not 'discovered' - it was written down by humans.

You could argue that Moses 'discovered' the 10 commandments- but that is a tough argument if you also believe God spoke directly to Moses.

The Dead Sea Scrolls are merely a collection of religious writings by a rather small sect- which we did discover long after the Bible as we know it was discovered.

The Old Testament supposedly was written by divinely inspired writers- and is more in the sense a history- again not 'discovered' in any sense.

The New Testament again supposedly was the recollections of those who encountered Jesus.

In all cases- they were written down by humans- whether or not they were divinely inspired- well there is no way to prove that either way.

How do you conclude the Bible was not discovered? Who else backs up your opinion? You could not figure out that kings were involved in getting it right. Do you know how the Holy Spirit works? It means that God told these special people to write it down. We had the people who lived back then verify it. I'm sure if you said what you just said back then, it would be death for you.

Many kings held many gods to be important.

Why am I not surprised that you are one of those supposed religious people that gets off on fantasizing about people who don't believe in your fairy tales burning forever?

Like who? Where are your links? I think you don't know much about Christianity and the Bible even though I provided several links to answer your question.

You're not going to answer my questions because all you are interested in is to just have your wrong opinions supported by others here. Otherwise, which experts back up what you said?

Good bye.

 

[flacaltenn]

You must choose between two and only two inconceivable prospects.
Either:
A. The universe made itself, out of nothing, or else,
B. An infinite intellect and power made the universe.

This is very true and to me the most logical argument for Intelligent Design. To not believe in some higher power is to think that the universe made itself out of nothing, which is a prosperous idea when you think about it.

Yeah - BUT LOL... It's a false choice.. And one that ruins BOTH sides of the intelligent design debate..

And that is -- science is not saying "the universe made itself out of nothing" -- the THEORY is it was made from UNFATHOMABLY dense energy that could fit on the head of pin.. That energy representing the mass equivalent of EVERY MOLECULE in the universe.. All the carbon, silicon, gold and rubber tires in the NJ dumps..

Which is different from Genesis in that God made the universe out of nothing... But from there, Genesis is actually surprisingly accurate for a literary allegory.

So, for Intel. Designers -- missing that UNFATHOMABLY huge spark of energy voids their opportunity to claim divine intervention.. And for the science is god folks -- well they just don't KNOW where the spark came from.. OR IF these "sparks" are actually creating new universes periodically or every nanosecond..

I've always countered the closed minded "anti religious faith" crowd by pointing out the EXTRAORDINARY FAITH it takes to picture ALL THE MASS of the universe on the head of pin... I could more easily believe that Moses DID part the Red Sea...

 

[flacaltenn]

Yes, Auschwitz was a very pleasant place for the Jews, wasn't it

The Juden were given free housing, food, work clothes, full time employment, and 24 hour armed security at the camps.

And yet, all they did was complain. ....

You would have been a big hit on the Catskills comedy circuit... That's prime Jewish humor right there ya muzzie..

 

[Flash]

You must choose between two and only two inconceivable prospects.
Either:
A. The universe made itself, out of nothing, or else,
B. An infinite intellect and power made the universe.

This is very true and to me the most logical argument for Intelligent Design. To not believe in some higher power is to think that the universe made itself out of nothing, which is a prosperous idea when you think about it.

Yeah - BUT LOL... It's a false choice.. And one that ruins BOTH sides of the intelligent design debate..

And that is -- science is not saying "the universe made itself out of nothing" -- the THEORY is it was made from UNFATHOMABLY dense energy that could fit on the head of pin.. That energy representing the mass equivalent of EVERY MOLECULE in the universe.. All the carbon, silicon, gold and rubber tires in the NJ dumps..

Which is different from Genesis in that God made the universe out of nothing... But from there, Genesis is actually surprisingly accurate for a literary allegory.

So, for Intel. Designers -- missing that UNFATHOMABLY huge spark of energy voids their opportunity to claim divine intervention.. And for the science is god folks -- well they just don't KNOW where the spark came from.. OR IF these "sparks" are actually creating new universes periodically or every nanosecond..

I've always countered the closed minded "anti religious faith" crowd by pointing out the EXTRAORDINARY FAITH it takes to picture ALL THE MASS of the universe on the head of pin... I could more easily believe that Moses DID part the Red Sea...

The idea that the whole universe was once the size of point of pin is nothing more than trying to explain The Big Bang. You have to have the pin point universe or else you can't have the BB.

The BB is nothing more than a placeholder to explain the unexplainable; the universe making itself out of nothing. Thinking that something making itself out of nothing is nothing more than believing in magic.

There may be a day when science can explain the unexplainable. Until somebody can rationally show me how the universe can magically pop into existence out of nothing then I am inclined to believe that there is some intelligent design to the existence of everything. That is a more rational explanation than the silly magic theory.

 

[Mac1958]

Make an educated guess based on what you do know. How hard is it to choose.

Okay, my best current guess is that we are here as the result of chemistry and not divinity.

One one hand, to me, the Big Bang Theory simply does not satisfy. But another explanation for our existence may roll along some day.

On the other hand, this notion of a mythical, all-powerful God, and singling one out of the 2,500 or so that humans have created and worshiped over the millennia on this tiny speck in the universe, is even LESS satisfying.

I completely understand that religion, whichever one it is, provides answers, guidance, strength and comfort. That's nice, but that doesn't make it true. I just don't claim to know for sure WHAT the hell (no pun intended) is going on.

In the meantime, few things in life excite me as much seeing little advancements and discoveries in science and wondering what is to come.
.

 

[james bond]

Okay, my best current guess is that we are here as the result of chemistry and not divinity.

Based on what? Why are you even guessing. This is the most ridiculous guess because the scientific method has disproved it. It goes to show several here are smarter than you.

One one hand, to me, the Big Bang Theory simply does not satisfy. But another explanation for our existence may roll along some day.

Again, it goes to show several here are smarter than you.

 

[Mac1958]

Okay, my best current guess is that we are here as the result of chemistry and not divinity.

Based on what? Why are you even guessing. This is the most ridiculous guess because the scientific method has disproved it. It goes to show several here are smarter than you.

One one hand, to me, the Big Bang Theory simply does not satisfy. But another explanation for our existence may roll along some day.

Again, it goes to show several here are smarter than you.

The fact that you feel you have to attack a sincere, humble opinion says more about you than it does about me.

I fully support your right to believe whatever you want, whether I agree with it or not.
.

 

[james bond]

The fact that you feel you have to attack a sincere, humble opinion says more about you than it does about me.

No, I asked you what do you base your guess on and you could not answer. Second, there is no need to guess anymore. You thought it was chemistry, but chemistry is what disproved it.

Anyway, if it is your opinion, then no one can argue with an opinion.

I fully support your right to believe whatever you want, whether I agree with it or not.
.

Mine is based on faith and the Bible. It's also based on validation by facts, reasoning, and historical truth. It's based on discovery and science. Apparently, you rather go with your guesses based on things you cannot answer. Good day.

 

[Mac1958]

The fact that you feel you have to attack a sincere, humble opinion says more about you than it does about me.

No, I asked you what do you base your guess on and you could not answer. Second, there is no need to guess anymore. You thought it was chemistry, but chemistry is what disproved it.

Anyway, if it is your opinion, then no one can argue with an opinion.

I fully support your right to believe whatever you want, whether I agree with it or not.
.

Mine is based on faith and the Bible. It's also based on validation by facts, reasoning, and historical truth. It's based on discovery and science. Apparently, you rather go with your guesses based on things you cannot answer. Good day.

I was asked a question, and I answered it. Your opinion is irrelevant.

And good day to you!
.

 

[toobfreak]

PROBLEM: The universe could not have created itself, from absolutely nothing. That would violate the first law and second laws of thermodynamics.

Skimming quickly over your long post, engineer to engineer I wonder if you have any actual background in astrophysics or cosmology? I ask that because in your statement above I caught two common misconceptions:

1. Who ever said that the universe created itself? The basic precept is that the universe was CREATED by an outside, intervening force, event or effect. And it had to be created from nothing as we understand it, as if something was already there, existed, then so was the universe (in some form), unless we are talking of some trans-dimensional effect, which then reduces the problem to semantics.
   
2. The idea that its creation would violate laws of thermodynamics. You have to understand that at the time the universe came into existence, there were no laws of thermodynamics to obey or violate. A different, as yet not understood set of physical laws applied and part of the creation of the universe was that some billionth of a second afterwards or whatever the interval was, these new laws and the physics we know today which determine our phenomenal universe took effect.

 

[james bond]

I was asked a question, and I answered it. Your opinion is irrelevant.

You were asked to back up your guesses and just had opinion. I suspect it is an opinion based on atheistic faith in evolution. At least, you admit that it's opinion and not claim it to be science. I guess this is commendable.

Furthermore, it was pointed out to you that faith, the Bible, education (learning about facts, reasoning, and historical truths, as well as discovering things for yourself and science) are better than an opinion based on Satan. I bring in Satan now because I discovered those things you mention here -- Is This Evidence For Satan?.

 

[Mac1958]

I was asked a question, and I answered it. Your opinion is irrelevant.

You were asked to back up your guesses and just had opinion. I suspect it is an opinion based on atheistic faith in evolution. At least, you admit that it's opinion and not claim it to be science. I guess this is commendable.

Furthermore, it was pointed out to you that faith, the Bible, education (learning about facts, reasoning, and historical truths, as well as discovering things for yourself and science) are better than an opinion based on Satan. I bring in Satan now because I discovered those things you mention here -- Is This Evidence For Satan?.

Thanks so much for your unsolicited opinion.
.

 

[james bond]

And it had to be created from nothing as we understand it, as if something was already there, existed,

Nothing as in nothing or a void.

You have to understand that at the time the universe came into existence, there were no laws of thermodynamics to obey or violate.

So you agree that we had a void? No space. No time. No quantum matter.

 

[james bond]

I was asked a question, and I answered it. Your opinion is irrelevant.

You were asked to back up your guesses and just had opinion. I suspect it is an opinion based on atheistic faith in evolution. At least, you admit that it's opinion and not claim it to be science. I guess this is commendable.

Furthermore, it was pointed out to you that faith, the Bible, education (learning about facts, reasoning, and historical truths, as well as discovering things for yourself and science) are better than an opinion based on Satan. I bring in Satan now because I discovered those things you mention here -- Is This Evidence For Satan?.

Thanks so much for your unsolicited opinion.
.

This is why I said there are smarter and more educated people here. Your opinion is irrelevant while ours is has logical, rational, and educated basis.

ETA:

Isn't it better to get unsolicited opinions than have pain and suffering for eternity? Food for thought.

 

[Mac1958]

I was asked a question, and I answered it. Your opinion is irrelevant.

You were asked to back up your guesses and just had opinion. I suspect it is an opinion based on atheistic faith in evolution. At least, you admit that it's opinion and not claim it to be science. I guess this is commendable.

Furthermore, it was pointed out to you that faith, the Bible, education (learning about facts, reasoning, and historical truths, as well as discovering things for yourself and science) are better than an opinion based on Satan. I bring in Satan now because I discovered those things you mention here -- Is This Evidence For Satan?.

Thanks so much for your unsolicited opinion.
.

This is why I said there are smarter and more educated people here. Your opinion is irrelevant while ours is has logical, rational, and educated basis.

Super.

Perhaps this would be a conversation better had with an Atheist, someone who is convinced about the existence of a God as you are.

I'm burned out on asymmetrical conversations with people who only have the capacity to see and understand one side of a story.
.

 

[james bond]

I'm burned out on asymmetrical conversations with people who only have the capacity to see and understand one side of a story.

You're jumping to conclusions. I used to believe in evolution and learned it here -- Understanding Evolution. Afterward, around 2012 I became a born-again Christian and started reading the Bible. That convinced me which side had the truth. The truth is backed up by science. There were also articles from 2007 - 2011 that criticized evolution. For example, how did Darwin just happen to be given a cell to start with?

Thus, again you just have uneducated and irrelevant opinion but now you've been made aware that you are heading towards pain and suffering for eternity.

 

[Mac1958]

I'm burned out on asymmetrical conversations with people who only have the capacity to see and understand one side of a story.

You're jumping to conclusions. I used to believe in evolution and learned it here -- Understanding Evolution. Afterward, around 2012 I became a born-again Christian and started reading the Bible. That convinced me which side had the truth. The truth is backed up by science. There were also articles from 2007 - 2011 that criticized evolution. For example, how did Darwin just happen to be given a cell to start with?

Thus, again you just have uneducated and irrelevant opinion but now you've been made aware that you are heading towards pain and suffering for eternity.

Super duper!
.

 

[ChemEngineer]

PROBLEM: The universe could not have created itself, from absolutely nothing. That would violate the first law and second laws of thermodynamics.

Skimming quickly over your long post, engineer to engineer I wonder if you have any actual background in astrophysics or cosmology? I ask that because in your statement above I caught two common misconceptions:

1. Who ever said that the universe created itself? The basic precept is that the universe was CREATED by an outside, intervening force, event or effect. And it had to be created from nothing as we understand it, as if something was already there, existed, then so was the universe (in some form), unless we are talking of some trans-dimensional effect, which then reduces the problem to semantics.
   
2. The idea that its creation would violate laws of thermodynamics. You have to understand that at the time the universe came into existence, there were no laws of thermodynamics to obey or violate. A different, as yet not understood set of physical laws applied and part of the creation of the universe was that some billionth of a second afterwards or whatever the interval was, these new laws and the physics we know today which determine our phenomenal universe took effect.

toobfreak, what WAS that "outside, intervening force, event or effect" that created the universe, if it was not Nature's God? The semantics are all yours, 1 and 2.

If there were no "laws" prior to the creation of the universe, then WHO MADE such "laws" and why were they so exquisitely perfect? Look into your toob for more semantics. I'm sure you will find them, and again call them something else.

Atheism Is Evil

Proof There Is No God