Monte and Shusha Negotiate a Solution

[Shusha]

Monte has agreed to act as Team Palestine, and I will act on behalf of Team Israel and we are going to attempt to negotiate an actual solution to the conflict.

My initial thoughts on what we are trying to do here:

Negotiate a two-State solution which satisfies both parties.
Assume no pre-conditions.
Begin with a premise of "you can't unbreak that egg".
Not rehash old arguments about "rights" or any past events.


The issues (no particular order): end-of-conflict, recognition, borders, security, Jerusalem, Holy Places, citizenship, resources, refugees

I will open by suggesting that this negotiation lead to a a permanent end-of-conflict agreement and treaty of peace between the State of Israel and the State of Palestine, with each State recognizing the other as the self-governing sovereign of the Jewish people and the Arab Palestinian people.

 

[montelatici]

I don't believe that a two-state solution can be negotiated. I think that a one-state solution should be put in the mix.

 

[Shusha]

I don't believe that a two-state solution can be negotiated. I think that a one-state solution should be put in the mix.

Why do you think a two state solution can't be negotiated?

I can't see a one state solution working. But I'm willing to listen. Convince me.

 

[montelatici]

The treaty provides for the immediate full enfranchisement of the West Bank and East Jerusalem Palestinians and a firm schedule for the enfranchisement of the Gaza Palestinians within 4 years, subject to an agreement acceptable to the Jews. It would be up to the West Bank/East Jerusalem Palestinians to negotiate an agreement with Gaza, acceptable to the Jewish population. It would establish Jerusalem as the capital and the capital area would be independently governed, like Brussels in Belgium.

The state would become known as the Jewish and Palestinian State and the flag would have to show some kind of symbol for the Palestinians.

If the WB/East Jerusalem Palestinians begin to live better and this is seen as such by the Gazans, it is possible even Hamas will tone it down.

Belgium may not be the best example of a solution, but its a darn sight better than Israel/Palestine.

 

[P F Tinmore]

A two state solution only addresses the rights of less then half of the Palestinians.

 

[Shusha]

Wouldn't that just put all of the Palestinians under "Jewish rule"? Do you think the Palestinians would agree to that under current conditions?

 

[Shusha]

A two state solution only addresses the rights of less then half of the Palestinians.

I'm not sure I understand. Please elaborate.

 

[montelatici]

Wouldn't that just put all of the Palestinians under "Jewish rule"? Do you think the Palestinians would agree to that under current conditions?

The WB and EJ Palestinians would, with the Israeli Arabs, form a large voting block in parliament and could influence legislation that would increase their rights within the bi-national state. They would feel enfranchised and if the state is bi-national they would have no reason to attack it. The Gazans are the bigger problem

 

[Shusha]

Wouldn't that just put all of the Palestinians under "Jewish rule"? Do you think the Palestinians would agree to that under current conditions?

The WB and EJ Palestinians would, with the Israeli Arabs, form a large voting block in parliament and could influence legislation that would increase their rights within the bi-national state. They would feel enfranchised and if the state is bi-national they would have no reason to attack it. The Gazans are the bigger problem

I agree EJ Palestinians, for the most part would go for it. Not convinced about the rest. And at least theoretically they wouldn't need to have their rights increased, becoming Israeli citizens. What rights would you imagine they would want to change?

What happens when the Jews come to pray on the Temple Mount?

It just seems awfully naive to think that we can just put an AP symbol on the flag, rename the place The United State of Israel and Palestine and call her done.

 

[RoccoR]

SHUSHA and MONTELATICI

OK --- I got lost here right off the bat. Which one of the issues (end-of-conflict, recognition, borders, security, Jerusalem, Holy Places, citizenship, resources, refugees) are we discussing?

v/r
R

 

[montelatici]

We are at the very beginning, just big picture no details yet.

 

[P F Tinmore]

A two state solution only addresses the rights of less then half of the Palestinians.

I'm not sure I understand. Please elaborate.

About half (or more) of all Palestinians live outside of historic Palestine. About 80% of the people in Gaza are refugees. Some of the Gaza natives are internally displaced. Many people in the West Bank are refugees or internally displaced. Most of the Palestinians inside Israel are internally displaced. These are the realities that must be addresses for a just solution.

 

[montelatici]

Wouldn't that just put all of the Palestinians under "Jewish rule"? Do you think the Palestinians would agree to that under current conditions?

The WB and EJ Palestinians would, with the Israeli Arabs, form a large voting block in parliament and could influence legislation that would increase their rights within the bi-national state. They would feel enfranchised and if the state is bi-national they would have no reason to attack it. The Gazans are the bigger problem

I agree EJ Palestinians, for the most part would go for it. Not convinced about the rest. And at least theoretically they wouldn't need to have their rights increased, becoming Israeli citizens. What rights would you imagine they would want to change?

What happens when the Jews come to pray on the Temple Mount?

It just seems awfully naive to think that we can just put an AP symbol on the flag, rename the place The United State of Israel and Palestine and call her done.

I suspect that praying on Temple Mount with some conditions would be a negotiating point that the WB and EJ Palestinians would agree to if they were enfranchised. The idea of a bi-national state with Palestine being one of them is a big draw, I think.

 

[Shusha]

A two state solution only addresses the rights of less then half of the Palestinians.

I'm not sure I understand. Please elaborate.

About half (or more) of all Palestinians live outside of historic Palestine. About 80% of the people in Gaza are refugees. Some of the Gaza natives are internally displaced. Many people in the West Bank are refugees or internally displaced. Most of the Palestinians inside Israel are internally displaced. These are the realities that must be addresses for a just solution.

I agree all those things should be on the table for discussion.

 

[P F Tinmore]

A two state solution only addresses the rights of less then half of the Palestinians.

I'm not sure I understand. Please elaborate.

About half (or more) of all Palestinians live outside of historic Palestine. About 80% of the people in Gaza are refugees. Some of the Gaza natives are internally displaced. Many people in the West Bank are refugees or internally displaced. Most of the Palestinians inside Israel are internally displaced. These are the realities that must be addresses for a just solution.

I agree all those things should be on the table for discussion.

These are the rights of displaced people. Why would rights be up to discussion?

 

[montelatici]

A two state solution only addresses the rights of less then half of the Palestinians.

I'm not sure I understand. Please elaborate.

About half (or more) of all Palestinians live outside of historic Palestine. About 80% of the people in Gaza are refugees. Some of the Gaza natives are internally displaced. Many people in the West Bank are refugees or internally displaced. Most of the Palestinians inside Israel are internally displaced. These are the realities that must be addresses for a just solution.

This is a step by step process. Once Palestinians of the WB and EJ are enfranchised, attitudes toward Jews will change, possibly the Muslim Palestinians might ally themselves with the Sephardi Jews, for example while Christian Palestinians might ally themselves with the Ashkenazi. Those sort of things can change the dynamic of Arab versus Jew.

 

[Shusha]

How would you propose to protect Jewish interests and security, assuming a likely eventual Arab majority?

Some things to think about:

unlimited access to the Temple Mount at all times and for all purposes for people of all religious faiths
building of a new Jewish Temple on the Mount, providing it does not damage the Dome or the Mosque at all (truly shared space)
entrenching language, holidays and other cultural aspects into law
preserving the Jewish right of return

those kinds of things

 

[Shusha]

These are the rights of displaced people. Why would rights be up to discussion?

Its a thread to negotiate the solution to the conflict. I agree the issues you brought up must be considered. I will ensure they will be.

If you want to rehash the whole "rights" thing go piss on another thread.

 

[P F Tinmore]

These are the rights of displaced people. Why would rights be up to discussion?

Its a thread to negotiate the solution to the conflict. I agree the issues you brought up must be considered. I will ensure they will be.

If you want to rehash the whole "rights" thing go piss on another thread.

Protect the rights of the Jews and ignore the rights of the Palestinians.

At least we know where you are going with this.

 

[Shusha]

montelatici

How do you feel about not considering Gaza's incorporation into the United State of Israel and Palestine until there has been a period of time with no belligerent actions? Say one year of peace before the four year countdown.