Minimum Wage Increase: They Never Talks About the SALES

[thereisnospoon]

FYI-
President Obama is wanting the minimum wage to go to $10.10 NOT $15.

Of course. The corporatists are evil, but they're not idiots. They're never going to raise the minimum wage to the level that it will damage economic output.

You are right, they won't raise it enough to damage the economic output.

Wise observation. I've never observed a single business go under due to the Minimum Wage. It just doesn't happen. I've asked several times for someone to show us all the examples of businesses going under because of it. So far, no one's provided even one. The fact is, if you're struggling to pay Minimum Wage, your business is doomed. You might as well close up shop.

That's because you are an uneducated simpleton, when the bottom wage is forced up to $15 an hour what happens to the rest of the wage scales, yes everyone wants a raise.

think about this....the middle class has lost ground, 5% less in wages with the cost of living calculated in to it, over the last 8 years.... PART of this is due to keeping the minimum wage so low...because as you said, raising the minimum wage will make all those higher than minimum wage feel they deserve more money, based on what the minimum wage earners are making.... we in the middle class are are biting off our nose to spite our face if we fight to keep the minimum wage as low as possible, or where it is.... this only makes the gap between the richest and the poorest and those in between even GREATER.

An official report was issued regarding wages and one of the factors discussed regarding the middle and lower class wages was the influx of immigrants, mainly illegal. These workers tend to accept lower wages, employers cheat them by paying below market rates, paying them as contractors instead as employees. Present workers, presumably Americans are eventually pushed out.

 

[LOki]

Of course. The corporatists are evil, but they're not idiots. They're never going to raise the minimum wage to the level that it will damage economic output.

You are right, they won't raise it enough to damage the economic output.

Wise observation. I've never observed a single business go under due to the Minimum Wage. It just doesn't happen. I've asked several times for someone to show us all the examples of businesses going under because of it. So far, no one's provided even one. The fact is, if you're struggling to pay Minimum Wage, your business is doomed. You might as well close up shop.

That's because you are an uneducated simpleton, when the bottom wage is forced up to $15 an hour what happens to the rest of the wage scales, yes everyone wants a raise.

think about this....the middle class has lost ground, 5% less in wages with the cost of living calculated in to it, over the last 8 years.... PART of this is due to keeping the minimum wage so low...because as you said, raising the minimum wage will make all those higher than minimum wage feel they deserve more money, based on what the minimum wage earners are making.... we in the middle class are are biting off our nose to spite our face if we fight to keep the minimum wage as low as possible, or where it is.... this only makes the gap between the richest and the poorest and those in between even GREATER.

An official report was issued regarding wages and one of the factors discussed regarding the middle and lower class wages was the influx of immigrants, mainly illegal. These workers tend to accept lower wages, employers cheat them by paying below market rates, paying them as contractors instead as employees. Present workers, presumably Americans are eventually pushed out.

Indeed!

Except that they're not being paid below market rates... they're just being paid below the legislatively inflated rate.

 

[SwimExpert]

I think back to when I owned a business. I paid my commission salespeople $350/hour (in 2015 dollars), and they still were only receiving 15% of the sale. In all, I made fine profits and expanded the business. Biggest downer ? All the people who called in and said > "Sorry. I can't afford it." Of course they can't. Not one somebody out there is paying them a low minimum wage. To be successful in business, you have a lot fo things to do. But you can't do anything, if the public around you doesn't have money in their pockets to buy what you're trying to sell.

Why didn't you reduce your prices? If there were so many people who couldn't afford what you were charging, why not reduce your prices to what they could afford, and grow your sales that way?

 

[LOki]

I think it is rather instructive that despite all the opportunities provided, not a single minimum wage proponent on this board is willing to state their objection to basing a worker's wages solely upon the value of that worker's work.

It's a fair question that deserves an honest answer.

 

[dblack]

The reason I know that even you don't believe the bullshit your spinning is that you will never answer a very simple question: If minimum wage mandates have no negative repercussions, why stop at $30/hr? Why not just legislate a $100/hr minimum wage? If you think that is ridiculous, please explain why.

Well obviously there has to be some reasonable contemplation involved.

Why?

But again i ask, show us all the examples of businesses going under due to the Minimum Wage. Because i've never observed even one example of that happening. If you can't afford to pay Minimum Wage, you need to shut things down. It wasn't meant to be for you.

In terms of real value, relative to inflation, minimum wage has been going down. So if anything, they've been getting relief over the last twenty or thirty years. There's no evidence that minimum wage increases will have negative consequences because they've been carefully, and deliberately, kept lagging behind the rate of inflation.

And again, the other point you keep ignoring, what do you say to workers who want to do work that isn't worth $30/hr? I'm not that really concerned about the fate of the businesses in question. They can, and will, find a workaround for dumbass regulations. They always do. It's the workers who are told they can no longer work who will suffer.

But what is a human being worth?

I wouldn't try to put a dollar value on someone's life. But any given work they do is another story. How much it's worth to me depends on how much I need what they have to offer. You don't really get that, do you?

If you don't think they're worth $15, you could always do the work yourself. Don't hire anyone. Or just hire family & friends who are willing to volunteer their time to help your business. Problem solved.

Exactly. Business owners will find any number of ways to work around this. But they won't pay employees more than their labor is worth, any more than customers will pay more than goods and services are worth. We can monkey around with mandating prices and wages all we want but it won't change the real value people place on things.

 

[dblack]

You are right, they won't raise it enough to damage the economic output.

Wise observation. I've never observed a single business go under due to the Minimum Wage. It just doesn't happen. I've asked several times for someone to show us all the examples of businesses going under because of it. So far, no one's provided even one. The fact is, if you're struggling to pay Minimum Wage, your business is doomed. You might as well close up shop.

I have offered you examples. You just refuse to acknowledge they exist.

On the other hand, you have not yet explained your objection to basing a worker's wage solely upon what the worker's work is worth.

Why is that?

I guess I do not understand your point or you do not understand the business term "productivity"?

I know what the business term "productivity" means. What you "produce" may or may not be worth something. "Productivity" is not a synonym for "worth." Not even in business terms. Not the same thing. Not.

So, the question that the minimum wage proponents around here have been avoiding still stands unanswered: Do you object to to basing a worker's wage solely upon what the worker's work is worth? If so, please explain to me why.

Thank you.

How do YOU determine ''worth'', before I answer you?

Only the people why are paying for a product or service can decide how much it's worth.

 

[dblack]

Ha, they do that anyway. So don't worry about the whiny hype. They'll be angry about it for a short time, and then they'll shut up and move on. The sky won't be falling. Bet on that.

And teenagers will find it just a bit harder to get that first job, and unemployment among the young will increase just a bit more, but we don't care about that, because we feel good about ourselves. And again, why not just raise it to $100/hr?

All that's gonna happen regardless of paying workers better. We've got Millions & Millions of Illegals invading. Good-paying jobs are gonna become harder & harder to find. And once this current President's disastrous trade deal is passed, American Workers will struggle even more.

And btw, your beloved Republicans are strongly behind the President's current trade deal proposal. So, paying workers a bit more isn't gonna significantly alter anything. The course has been set. We're heading down that road.

So why not just raise it to $100/hr and eliminate poverty altogether?

Are you seriously frightened they'll raise Minimum Wage to $100 an hr? If so, why?

I'm pointing out that claiming a MW increase never costs jobs is ludicrous. If that were true, why not just raise it to $100/hr and eliminate poverty altogether? The fact that no one wants to deal with the question is telling.

Yeah. They always plug their ears on this one. Make it really hard to take them seriously.

 

[Brain357]

And teenagers will find it just a bit harder to get that first job, and unemployment among the young will increase just a bit more, but we don't care about that, because we feel good about ourselves. And again, why not just raise it to $100/hr?

All that's gonna happen regardless of paying workers better. We've got Millions & Millions of Illegals invading. Good-paying jobs are gonna become harder & harder to find. And once this current President's disastrous trade deal is passed, American Workers will struggle even more.

And btw, your beloved Republicans are strongly behind the President's current trade deal proposal. So, paying workers a bit more isn't gonna significantly alter anything. The course has been set. We're heading down that road.

So why not just raise it to $100/hr and eliminate poverty altogether?

Are you seriously frightened they'll raise Minimum Wage to $100 an hr? If so, why?

I'm pointing out that claiming a MW increase never costs jobs is ludicrous. If that were true, why not just raise it to $100/hr and eliminate poverty altogether? The fact that no one wants to deal with the question is telling.

Yeah. They always plug their ears on this one. Make it really hard to take them seriously.

It's true because it hasn't ever been raised to $100. We have lots of history to look at, job losses have not happened. Seattle is raising min wage now with no problems.

 

[dblack]

All that's gonna happen regardless of paying workers better. We've got Millions & Millions of Illegals invading. Good-paying jobs are gonna become harder & harder to find. And once this current President's disastrous trade deal is passed, American Workers will struggle even more.

And btw, your beloved Republicans are strongly behind the President's current trade deal proposal. So, paying workers a bit more isn't gonna significantly alter anything. The course has been set. We're heading down that road.

So why not just raise it to $100/hr and eliminate poverty altogether?

Are you seriously frightened they'll raise Minimum Wage to $100 an hr? If so, why?

I'm pointing out that claiming a MW increase never costs jobs is ludicrous. If that were true, why not just raise it to $100/hr and eliminate poverty altogether? The fact that no one wants to deal with the question is telling.

Yeah. They always plug their ears on this one. Make it really hard to take them seriously.

It's true because it hasn't ever been raised to $100. We have lots of history to look at, job losses have not happened. Seattle is raising min wage now with no problems.

Then answer the question. But you won't, will you? Seriously, if you really think minimum wages laws don't cause any problems, is there any good reason not to raise it to $100/hr?

 

[Brain357]

So why not just raise it to $100/hr and eliminate poverty altogether?

Are you seriously frightened they'll raise Minimum Wage to $100 an hr? If so, why?

I'm pointing out that claiming a MW increase never costs jobs is ludicrous. If that were true, why not just raise it to $100/hr and eliminate poverty altogether? The fact that no one wants to deal with the question is telling.

Yeah. They always plug their ears on this one. Make it really hard to take them seriously.

It's true because it hasn't ever been raised to $100. We have lots of history to look at, job losses have not happened. Seattle is raising min wage now with no problems.

Then answer the question. But you won't, will you? Seriously, if you really think minimum wages laws don't cause any problems, is there any good reason not to raise it to $100/hr?

Lots of good reasons. It has to stay below wages of the skilled and educated.

 

[Care4all]

Wise observation. I've never observed a single business go under due to the Minimum Wage. It just doesn't happen. I've asked several times for someone to show us all the examples of businesses going under because of it. So far, no one's provided even one. The fact is, if you're struggling to pay Minimum Wage, your business is doomed. You might as well close up shop.

I have offered you examples. You just refuse to acknowledge they exist.

On the other hand, you have not yet explained your objection to basing a worker's wage solely upon what the worker's work is worth.

Why is that?

I guess I do not understand your point or you do not understand the business term "productivity"?

I know what the business term "productivity" means. What you "produce" may or may not be worth something. "Productivity" is not a synonym for "worth." Not even in business terms. Not the same thing. Not.

So, the question that the minimum wage proponents around here have been avoiding still stands unanswered: Do you object to to basing a worker's wage solely upon what the worker's work is worth? If so, please explain to me why.

Thank you.

How do YOU determine ''worth'', before I answer you?

I'm not about to determine for YOU or anyone else what's worth what, or how you and whoever you contract with determines that worth. None of my business.

The question is simple: Do you object to to basing a worker's wage solely upon what the worker's work is worth? YES or NO.

If not, please explain to me why.

Thank you.

What I have been saying ALL ALONG is that you do choose what a worker is worth, as far as pay is concerned and this involves how much they can produce in sales for you....

And if they can not meet their goals in sales, then they are not worth the money you are paying them....you either give them a second chance if you believe they do have potential and spend more time training them so they can accomplish the goals you set for them, or you let them go and find a replacement that can do such...especially if you do have a minimum wage that you are required to pay by law....I have gone in to Stores as a manager (when young) and fired 10 out of 12 employees and hired 10 new ones, that I was certain could meet the goals I set.... I didn't fire them because the minimum wage was too high...I fired them because they were not good employees and I did not want people who could barely get by and think that was enough...I hired 10 people who could all be managers some day, if I trained them correctly....they had fire under their butts and in their guts the desire to accomplish and exceed their sales goals...and to learn about the business, and believe it or not these were minimum wage workers when hired.... Kids....where 7 out of that 10 I hired DID become managers for the Corporation I worked for....

If the minimum wage kids that I fired got a few more employers to fire them as well for their lackadaisical attitudes, they could finally wake up and realize, THEY are doing something wrong...and learn this hard lesson....early in life. I come from the school of Hard Knox...produce, or kindly say good-bye.

Some times employers hang on to dead wood for whatever reason, (usually they don't want to spend the time training a new person) but I was not one of them...

so yes, I believe employers or business owners, should pay their employees on what they are "worth"....and when and if minimum wage goes up...has little, if anything, to do with it...

 

[LOki]

I have offered you examples. You just refuse to acknowledge they exist.

On the other hand, you have not yet explained your objection to basing a worker's wage solely upon what the worker's work is worth.

Why is that?

I guess I do not understand your point or you do not understand the business term "productivity"?

I know what the business term "productivity" means. What you "produce" may or may not be worth something. "Productivity" is not a synonym for "worth." Not even in business terms. Not the same thing. Not.

So, the question that the minimum wage proponents around here have been avoiding still stands unanswered: Do you object to to basing a worker's wage solely upon what the worker's work is worth? If so, please explain to me why.

Thank you.

How do YOU determine ''worth'', before I answer you?

I'm not about to determine for YOU or anyone else what's worth what, or how you and whoever you contract with determines that worth. None of my business.

The question is simple: Do you object to to basing a worker's wage solely upon what the worker's work is worth? YES or NO.

If not, please explain to me why.

Thank you.

<<Irrelevant blerf snipped>>​

so yes, I believe employers or business owners, should pay their employees on what they are "worth"....and when and if minimum wage goes up...has little, if anything, to do with it...

You have expressed more than once that wages should be based upon what the worker is worth.

I don't want to jump on your shit if you're just speaking imprecisely... do you believe a worker's wages should be based upon what the worker is worth, or what their work is worth?

 

[Care4all]

Wise observation. I've never observed a single business go under due to the Minimum Wage. It just doesn't happen. I've asked several times for someone to show us all the examples of businesses going under because of it. So far, no one's provided even one. The fact is, if you're struggling to pay Minimum Wage, your business is doomed. You might as well close up shop.

I have offered you examples. You just refuse to acknowledge they exist.

On the other hand, you have not yet explained your objection to basing a worker's wage solely upon what the worker's work is worth.

Why is that?

I guess I do not understand your point or you do not understand the business term "productivity"?

I know what the business term "productivity" means. What you "produce" may or may not be worth something. "Productivity" is not a synonym for "worth." Not even in business terms. Not the same thing. Not.

So, the question that the minimum wage proponents around here have been avoiding still stands unanswered: Do you object to to basing a worker's wage solely upon what the worker's work is worth? If so, please explain to me why.

Thank you.

How do YOU determine ''worth'', before I answer you?

Only the people why are paying for a product or service can decide how much it's worth.

"Only the people THAT? (not WHY as you wrote?) are paying for a product or service can decide how much it is worth"


...true, it's called the "market" and the market does decide what widgets or services are worth to them.... ( I paid my maid to clean my house once a week, $20 an hour when I was working (and minimum wage was about a third of that wage), and it was well WORTH it to me!!!!)

FYI-we were not talking about products for sale, but workers worth.

 

[Care4all]

I guess I do not understand your point or you do not understand the business term "productivity"?

I know what the business term "productivity" means. What you "produce" may or may not be worth something. "Productivity" is not a synonym for "worth." Not even in business terms. Not the same thing. Not.

So, the question that the minimum wage proponents around here have been avoiding still stands unanswered: Do you object to to basing a worker's wage solely upon what the worker's work is worth? If so, please explain to me why.

Thank you.

How do YOU determine ''worth'', before I answer you?

I'm not about to determine for YOU or anyone else what's worth what, or how you and whoever you contract with determines that worth. None of my business.

The question is simple: Do you object to to basing a worker's wage solely upon what the worker's work is worth? YES or NO.

If not, please explain to me why.

Thank you.

<<Irrelevant blerf snipped>>​

so yes, I believe employers or business owners, should pay their employees on what they are "worth"....and when and if minimum wage goes up...has little, if anything, to do with it...

You have expressed more than once that wages should be based upon what the worker is worth.

I don't want to jump on your shit if you're just speaking imprecisely... do you believe a worker's wages should be based upon what the worker is worth, or what their work is worth?

It's one and the same for me...

 

[SwimExpert]

Well obviously there has to be some reasonable contemplation involved.

Why?

But again i ask, show us all the examples of businesses going under due to the Minimum Wage. Because i've never observed even one example of that happening. If you can't afford to pay Minimum Wage, you need to shut things down. It wasn't meant to be for you.

In terms of real value, relative to inflation, minimum wage has been going down. So if anything, they've been getting relief over the last twenty or thirty years. There's no evidence that minimum wage increases will have negative consequences because they've been carefully, and deliberately, kept lagging behind the rate of inflation.

And again, the other point you keep ignoring, what do you say to workers who want to do work that isn't worth $30/hr? I'm not that really concerned about the fate of the businesses in question. They can, and will, find a workaround for dumbass regulations. They always do. It's the workers who are told they can no longer work who will suffer.

But what is a human being worth?

I wouldn't try to put a dollar value on someone's life. But any given work they do is another story. How much it's worth to me depends on how much I need what they have to offer. You don't really get that, do you?

If you don't think they're worth $15, you could always do the work yourself. Don't hire anyone. Or just hire family & friends who are willing to volunteer their time to help your business. Problem solved.

Exactly. Business owners will find any number of ways to work around this. But they won't pay employees more than their labor is worth, any more than customers will pay more than goods and services are worth. We can monkey around with mandating prices and wages all we want but it won't change the real value people place on things.

You talk like "worth" is an objective measure.

 

[hadit]

Are you seriously frightened they'll raise Minimum Wage to $100 an hr? If so, why?

I'm pointing out that claiming a MW increase never costs jobs is ludicrous. If that were true, why not just raise it to $100/hr and eliminate poverty altogether? The fact that no one wants to deal with the question is telling.

Yeah. They always plug their ears on this one. Make it really hard to take them seriously.

It's true because it hasn't ever been raised to $100. We have lots of history to look at, job losses have not happened. Seattle is raising min wage now with no problems.

Then answer the question. But you won't, will you? Seriously, if you really think minimum wages laws don't cause any problems, is there any good reason not to raise it to $100/hr?

Lots of good reasons. It has to stay below wages of the skilled and educated.

Why? that seems like a very random excuse. You keep insisting that we can raise it with no problem. So, why not really raise it? The answer, of course, is that you know we can't without destroying jobs and the economy, so any increase will have to be small enough as to ultimately not matter very much. Face reality, MW will never be able to get high enough for a single wage earner to support a spouse, much less a family. You will forever be complaining that it's too low.

 

[dblack]

Why?

In terms of real value, relative to inflation, minimum wage has been going down. So if anything, they've been getting relief over the last twenty or thirty years. There's no evidence that minimum wage increases will have negative consequences because they've been carefully, and deliberately, kept lagging behind the rate of inflation.

And again, the other point you keep ignoring, what do you say to workers who want to do work that isn't worth $30/hr? I'm not that really concerned about the fate of the businesses in question. They can, and will, find a workaround for dumbass regulations. They always do. It's the workers who are told they can no longer work who will suffer.

But what is a human being worth?

I wouldn't try to put a dollar value on someone's life. But any given work they do is another story. How much it's worth to me depends on how much I need what they have to offer. You don't really get that, do you?

If you don't think they're worth $15, you could always do the work yourself. Don't hire anyone. Or just hire family & friends who are willing to volunteer their time to help your business. Problem solved.

Exactly. Business owners will find any number of ways to work around this. But they won't pay employees more than their labor is worth, any more than customers will pay more than goods and services are worth. We can monkey around with mandating prices and wages all we want but it won't change the real value people place on things.

You talk like "worth" is an objective measure.

Not at all. It's completely subjective. That's my whole point. You can't just mandate how much things are worth to people. It depends on their needs and circumstances.

 

[Brain357]

I'm pointing out that claiming a MW increase never costs jobs is ludicrous. If that were true, why not just raise it to $100/hr and eliminate poverty altogether? The fact that no one wants to deal with the question is telling.

Yeah. They always plug their ears on this one. Make it really hard to take them seriously.

It's true because it hasn't ever been raised to $100. We have lots of history to look at, job losses have not happened. Seattle is raising min wage now with no problems.

Then answer the question. But you won't, will you? Seriously, if you really think minimum wages laws don't cause any problems, is there any good reason not to raise it to $100/hr?

Lots of good reasons. It has to stay below wages of the skilled and educated.

Why? that seems like a very random excuse. You keep insisting that we can raise it with no problem. So, why not really raise it? The answer, of course, is that you know we can't without destroying jobs and the economy, so any increase will have to be small enough as to ultimately not matter very much. Face reality, MW will never be able to get high enough for a single wage earner to support a spouse, much less a family. You will forever be complaining that it's too low.

Obviously the increase shouldn't be too big. It has to stay below skilled and educated workers. Otherwise the pay for them also has to go up and then yes there would be problems.

 

[dblack]

I have offered you examples. You just refuse to acknowledge they exist.

On the other hand, you have not yet explained your objection to basing a worker's wage solely upon what the worker's work is worth.

Why is that?

I guess I do not understand your point or you do not understand the business term "productivity"?

I know what the business term "productivity" means. What you "produce" may or may not be worth something. "Productivity" is not a synonym for "worth." Not even in business terms. Not the same thing. Not.

So, the question that the minimum wage proponents around here have been avoiding still stands unanswered: Do you object to to basing a worker's wage solely upon what the worker's work is worth? If so, please explain to me why.

Thank you.

How do YOU determine ''worth'', before I answer you?

Only the people why are paying for a product or service can decide how much it's worth.

"Only the people THAT? (not WHY as you wrote?) are paying for a product or service can decide how much it is worth"

WHO, rather. Thumb typing is not my forte.

...true, it's called the "market" and the market does decide what widgets or services are worth to them.... ( I paid my maid to clean my house once a week, $20 an hour when I was working (and minimum wage was about a third of that wage), and it was well WORTH it to me!!!!)

FYI-we were not talking about products for sale, but workers worth.

I'm not talking about how much workers are worth. I think it's an insult to calculate any person's worth in dollars. I'm talking about how much their labor is worth. That's the product they offer for sale in the market place.

 

[Mr Natural]

Obviously the increase shouldn't be too big. It has to stay below skilled and educated workers. Otherwise the pay for them also has to go up and then yes there would be problems.

And the last thing we need is a well paid workforce.