Michael J Fox - Human Shield

[Dr Grump]

Sounds like you might accept the "possibility" that something else is out there... maybe one little glimmer?

Other than other civilisations on other planets, no.

 

[jillian]

Other than other civilisations on other planets, no.

lol...

Well, that's an interesting possibility. :cof:

 

[MtnBiker]

Of course he won't get it!

You sound like Kerry trying to explain a joke.

 

[Annie]

You sound like Kerry trying to explain a joke.

 

[jillian]

You sound like Kerry trying to explain a joke.

Cute.... lol

 

[Dr Grump]

You sound like Kerry trying to explain a joke.

And Screaming Eagle sounds like....well......a screaming eagle...

 

[Eightball]

Not really. Conservative means retaining the tried and true old ways - which means our established laws which were originally based on good Christian morals and common sense. Goldwater is not really a social conservative when it comes to social issues such as homosexuality. I'd say he's more of a libertarian in that regard.

Ordinary Christians like me are the "radical religious right"???? That's a laugh. Well, I suppose your goal is to get rid of all Christians in politics so then the 1% who are atheists could rule the country their way, right? Or what??? You continually avoid answering our questions regarding your ethics or how America should look.

However, you're not really an atheist are you? And I don't believe you're Christian or Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist or any other "religion". So what are your ethics? Oh, that's right, you can't say....so I guess you're from the lapsed religious crowd that just does whatever you feeeeeeeel like....

The Secularist motto to live by: If it feels good, do it!:wank:

Just remember that key word that Jillian used for us radical Christians.........which by definition is bible believing Christians.......so that makes Jesus a radical to.

Back to point of reply.........Screaming Eagle...

Jillian said a key word back earlier........"Marginalize"..I've still not gotten a definition of what Jillian means by that as it was aimed or intended to be exercised towards Christians..........Marginalize them..........Now what would that amount too. The very definition of marginalize is to limit or control as to limit something.

How does Jillian want biblical Christians "marginalized"?

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Funny... he felt he was a true conservative and so did everyone else. He believed in small government and balanced budgets. He wasn't pro-small government except when it comes to others' bedrooms

I love when the radical religious right tries to pretend that the Founding Fathers set up a "christian" country. I guess you believe in fairy tales, huh?



http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth.html



Luckily you aren't an "ordinary Christian". You're a zealot. Normal Christians do not say insane things like "if Roe v Wade is repealed rapes will go down because women will have to be more responsible"



I love you whining zealots who respond to the rest of us who don't want you creating a theocracy with "whhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaa... you hate Christians"... whaaaaaaaaaa...whaaaaaaaaaaaaa.... freaking whaaaaaaaaaaaa:baby:

You know that isn't what I said at all. Yet you persist in repeating that little paranoid fantasy of yours.



I've been very clear about what I believe. I am pro existing life. Pro science. Pro education. Pro live and let live.... Pro governing my own behavior and not allowing a crackpot extremist to try to do it for me. I'm pro the Constitution and against violating its letter AND spirit. Pro being able to practice religion in one's house of worship and one's home but not in the governmental arena... where it is only allowed to interfere in theocracies. Again... we don't live in one and I'll cast any ballot I have to to keep you guys from making it one.



I've repeatedly made it clear that I'm not an athiest. That would be Grump. I'm a believer but not in what you believe.



I don't really care what you believe.



Yup... typical extremist response... "you're not a fundie Christian so you must be an amoral Christian-hating athiest".

What a crock.

You do realize that accusing us of wanting a theocracy is total bullshit, like everything else that spews from you.

A govt influenced by religion is not the same as a theocracy, but hey, dont let a little bit of facts ruin your delusional world view

 

[Dr Grump]

Just remember that key word that Jillian used for us radical Christians.........which by definition is bible believing Christians.......so that makes Jesus a radical to.

Where does she define radical Christians as those that believe in the bible? Can you name one Christian who doesn't believe in the bible? All Christians believe in the bible, it's how they interpret it, which makes them differ from each other. There is a reason there are Presbytarians, Catholics, Amish, Unitarians, Greek Orthodox, Anglican etc...They all have different takes. In the case of yourself, SE and few others, you are definitely radical in your beliefs...You may not think so, and you may not like the term, but I have seen enough NON radical Christians to know the difference. Of course, the likes of yourself, SE, -cp and Darin probably see Christians who don't interpret the bible like you guys as not being true Christians, so the vicious cycle starts again...

Jillian said a key word back earlier........"Marginalize"..I've still not gotten a definition of what Jillian means by that as it was aimed or intended to be exercised towards Christians..........Marginalize them..........Now what would that amount too. The very definition of marginalize is to limit or control as to limit something.

How does Jillian want biblical Christians "marginalized"?

Put it in context or don't put it in at all. She explained it quite easily, in simple English. Quote : You should be marginalised not from the practice of your religion, but from forcing the rest of us to abide by your belief system

If you cannot understand that simple, cohesive sentence, then the subject is hardly worth talking about, right?

 

[Dr Grump]

A govt influenced by religion is not the same as a theocracy, but hey, dont let a little bit of facts ruin your delusional world view

And once it starts being influenced, where does the influence stop?

 

[LuvRPgrl]

By the way, did you know that the Continental Congress called for a day of fasting and prayer within the colonies, beseeching God to give guidance and direction as to whether they should secede from England before the representatives to the Continental Congress signed the Declaration of Independence? In 1777, while the colonies were struggling in the Revolutionary War, the First Continental Congress called the Bible "the great political textbook of the patriots" and appropriated funds to import 20,000 Bibles for the people. Are you aware that the Continental Congress began its sessions with prayer, a practice that is followed by both houses of congress even today?

Patrick Henry, the great orator who said on the floor of the House of Burgesses in Virginia, "Give me liberty or give me death" also said,

It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ! For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.

Samuel Adams, cousin of John Adams, is called the "Father of the American Revolution." He incited the Boston Tea Party, signed the Declaration of Independence and called for the first Continental Congress. He said as the Declaration of Independence was being signed, "We have this day restored the Sovereign to whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His kingdom come." Samuel Adams also said, "First of all, I ... rely upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins."

Thomas Jefferson...said, "The reason that
Christianity is the best friend of government
is because Christianity is the only religion
that changes the heart."

Benjamin Franklin, considered a deist by many, said, "He who shall introduce into the public affairs the principles of a primitive Christianity, will change the face of the world." And Thomas Jefferson, also considered a deist, said, "The reason that Christianity is the best friend of government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart." Jefferson is even quoted as having said, "I am a Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

George Washington, the father of our nation said, "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible." Can you imagine the stress on this man the winter of 1777-78 at Valley Forge, Pennsylvania? He knew overwhelming British forces awaited him in the spring. The entire future of the fledgling nation was on his shoulders. If he were defeated, the new nation would no longer exist. He and the signers of the Declaration of Independence would probably be hanged, and his soldiers were dying at the rate of twelve per day. Many didn't have blankets or shoes.

Isaac Potts, who was Washington's temporary landlord at Valley Forge the winter of 1777-78, gave a famous account of Washington's resolution. As Potts was traveling the dark forest, he heard some distance from him a voice that became more intense as he approached its origin.

Washington was praying for the new nation,
for guidance, and for the men under his
command.
NOW IF PRESIDENT BUSH DOES THIS, HE IS CALLED A RADICAL RIGHT WING CHRISTIAN

John Jay was the first Chief Justice of he Supreme Court. He said, "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers. And it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."

Fifty-three of the fifty-six signers of the Declaration of Independence were reportedly Christians. I have already referred to statements made by some. These are the statements of three less well-known signers. There are many more.

John Dickinson said, "To my Creator, I resign myself, humbly confiding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity."

Gabriel Duvall, later a delegate to the Constitutional Convention and an appointee to the Supreme Court said, "I resign my soul into the hands of the Almighty who gave it in humble hopes of his mercy through our Savior Jesus Christ."

And lastly, John Witherspoon, pastor and President of New Jersey College (Princeton University today) said, "I shall entreat ... you in the most earnest manner to believe in Jesus Christ, for there is no salvation in any other" [Acts 4:12] ... f you are not clothed with the spotless robe of His righteousness, you must forever perish."

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach “the necessity of a public religion . . . and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern.” Consider also the fact that Franklin proposed a Biblical inscription for the Seal of the United States; that he chose a New Testament verse for the motto of the Philadelphia Hospital; that he was one of the chief voices behind the establishment of a paid chaplain in Congress; and that when in 1787 when Franklin helped found the college which bore his name, it was dedicated as “a nursery of religion and learning” built “on Christ, the Corner-Stone.” Franklin certainly doesn't fit the definition of a deist.

Nor does George Washington. He was an open promoter of Christianity. For example, in his speech on May 12, 1779, he claimed that what children needed to learn “above all” was the “religion of Jesus Christ,” and that to learn this would make them “greater and happier than they already are”; on May 2, 1778, he charged his soldiers at Valley Forge that “To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian”; and when he resigned his commission as commander-in-chief of the military on June 8, 1783, he reminded the nation that “without a humble imitation” of “the Divine Author of our blessed religion” we “can never hope to be a happy nation.” Washington's own adopted daughter declared of Washington that you might as well question his patriotism as to question his Christianity.

Alexander Hamilton was certainly no deist. For example, Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great: (1) Christianity, and (2) a Constitution formed under Christianity

James Madison trained for ministry with the Rev. Dr. John Witherspoon, and Madison's writings are replete with declarations of his faith in God and in Christ

None of the Founders mentioned fit the definition of a deist. And as is typical with those who make this claim, they name only a handful of Founders and then generalize the rest. This in itself is a mistake, for there are over two hundred Founders (fifty-five at the Constitutional Convention, ninety who framed the First Amendment and the Bill of Rights, and fifty-six who signed the Declaration) and any generalization of the Founders as deists is completely inaccurate.

The reason that such critics never mention any other Founders is evident. For example, consider what must be explained away if the following signers of the Constitution were to be mentioned: Charles Pinckney and John Langdon—founders of the American Bible Society; James McHenry—founder of the Baltimore Bible Society; Rufus King—helped found a Bible society for Anglicans; Abraham Baldwin—a chaplain in the Revolution and considered the youngest theologian in America; Roger Sherman, William Samuel Johnson, John Dickinson, and Jacob Broom—also theological writers; James Wilson and William Patterson—placed on the Supreme Court by President George Washington, they had prayer over juries in the U. S. Supreme Court room; and the list could go on. And this does not even include the huge number of thoroughly evangelical Christians who signed the Declaration or who helped frame the Bill of Rights.

Any portrayal of any handful of Founders as deists is inaccurate. (If this group had really wanted some irreligious Founders, they should have chosen Henry Dearborne, Charles Lee, or Ethan Allen). Perhaps critics should spend more time reading the writings of the Founders to discover their religious beliefs for themselves rather than making such sweeping accusations which are so easily disproven.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=29

http://www.creationists.org/churchandstate.html

 

[LuvRPgrl]

And once it starts being influenced, where does the influence stop?

Somewhere AFTER the signing of the Declaration of Independence AND the Constitution,,,,and BEFORE the establishment of a theocracy.

 

[Dr Grump]

Somewhere AFTER the signing of the Declaration of Independence AND the Constitution,,,,and BEFORE the establishment of a theocracy.

And therein lies the rub....

 

[jillian]

By the way, did you know that the Continental Congress called for a day of fasting and prayer within the colonies, beseeching God to give guidance and direction as to whether they should secede from England before the representatives to the Continental Congress signed the Declaration of Independence? In 1777, while the colonies were struggling in the Revolutionary War, the First Continental Congress called the Bible "the great political textbook of the patriots" and appropriated funds to import 20,000 Bibles for the people. Are you aware that the Continental Congress began its sessions with prayer, a practice that is followed by both houses of congress even today?

Patrick Henry, the great orator who said on the floor of the House of Burgesses in Virginia, "Give me liberty or give me death" also said,

It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ! For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.

Samuel Adams, cousin of John Adams, is called the "Father of the American Revolution." He incited the Boston Tea Party, signed the Declaration of Independence and called for the first Continental Congress. He said as the Declaration of Independence was being signed, "We have this day restored the Sovereign to whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His kingdom come." Samuel Adams also said, "First of all, I ... rely upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins."

Thomas Jefferson...said, "The reason that
Christianity is the best friend of government
is because Christianity is the only religion
that changes the heart."

Benjamin Franklin, considered a deist by many, said, "He who shall introduce into the public affairs the principles of a primitive Christianity, will change the face of the world." And Thomas Jefferson, also considered a deist, said, "The reason that Christianity is the best friend of government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart." Jefferson is even quoted as having said, "I am a Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

George Washington, the father of our nation said, "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible." Can you imagine the stress on this man the winter of 1777-78 at Valley Forge, Pennsylvania? He knew overwhelming British forces awaited him in the spring. The entire future of the fledgling nation was on his shoulders. If he were defeated, the new nation would no longer exist. He and the signers of the Declaration of Independence would probably be hanged, and his soldiers were dying at the rate of twelve per day. Many didn't have blankets or shoes.

Isaac Potts, who was Washington's temporary landlord at Valley Forge the winter of 1777-78, gave a famous account of Washington's resolution. As Potts was traveling the dark forest, he heard some distance from him a voice that became more intense as he approached its origin.

Washington was praying for the new nation,
for guidance, and for the men under his
command.
NOW IF PRESIDENT BUSH DOES THIS, HE IS CALLED A RADICAL RIGHT WING CHRISTIAN

John Jay was the first Chief Justice of he Supreme Court. He said, "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers. And it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."

Fifty-three of the fifty-six signers of the Declaration of Independence were reportedly Christians. I have already referred to statements made by some. These are the statements of three less well-known signers. There are many more.

John Dickinson said, "To my Creator, I resign myself, humbly confiding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity."

Gabriel Duvall, later a delegate to the Constitutional Convention and an appointee to the Supreme Court said, "I resign my soul into the hands of the Almighty who gave it in humble hopes of his mercy through our Savior Jesus Christ."

And lastly, John Witherspoon, pastor and President of New Jersey College (Princeton University today) said, "I shall entreat ... you in the most earnest manner to believe in Jesus Christ, for there is no salvation in any other" [Acts 4:12] ... f you are not clothed with the spotless robe of His righteousness, you must forever perish."

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach “the necessity of a public religion . . . and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern.” Consider also the fact that Franklin proposed a Biblical inscription for the Seal of the United States; that he chose a New Testament verse for the motto of the Philadelphia Hospital; that he was one of the chief voices behind the establishment of a paid chaplain in Congress; and that when in 1787 when Franklin helped found the college which bore his name, it was dedicated as “a nursery of religion and learning” built “on Christ, the Corner-Stone.” Franklin certainly doesn't fit the definition of a deist.

Nor does George Washington. He was an open promoter of Christianity. For example, in his speech on May 12, 1779, he claimed that what children needed to learn “above all” was the “religion of Jesus Christ,” and that to learn this would make them “greater and happier than they already are”; on May 2, 1778, he charged his soldiers at Valley Forge that “To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian”; and when he resigned his commission as commander-in-chief of the military on June 8, 1783, he reminded the nation that “without a humble imitation” of “the Divine Author of our blessed religion” we “can never hope to be a happy nation.” Washington's own adopted daughter declared of Washington that you might as well question his patriotism as to question his Christianity.

Alexander Hamilton was certainly no deist. For example, Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great: (1) Christianity, and (2) a Constitution formed under Christianity

James Madison trained for ministry with the Rev. Dr. John Witherspoon, and Madison's writings are replete with declarations of his faith in God and in Christ

None of the Founders mentioned fit the definition of a deist. And as is typical with those who make this claim, they name only a handful of Founders and then generalize the rest. This in itself is a mistake, for there are over two hundred Founders (fifty-five at the Constitutional Convention, ninety who framed the First Amendment and the Bill of Rights, and fifty-six who signed the Declaration) and any generalization of the Founders as deists is completely inaccurate.

The reason that such critics never mention any other Founders is evident. For example, consider what must be explained away if the following signers of the Constitution were to be mentioned: Charles Pinckney and John Langdon—founders of the American Bible Society; James McHenry—founder of the Baltimore Bible Society; Rufus King—helped found a Bible society for Anglicans; Abraham Baldwin—a chaplain in the Revolution and considered the youngest theologian in America; Roger Sherman, William Samuel Johnson, John Dickinson, and Jacob Broom—also theological writers; James Wilson and William Patterson—placed on the Supreme Court by President George Washington, they had prayer over juries in the U. S. Supreme Court room; and the list could go on. And this does not even include the huge number of thoroughly evangelical Christians who signed the Declaration or who helped frame the Bill of Rights.

Any portrayal of any handful of Founders as deists is inaccurate. (If this group had really wanted some irreligious Founders, they should have chosen Henry Dearborne, Charles Lee, or Ethan Allen). Perhaps critics should spend more time reading the writings of the Founders to discover their religious beliefs for themselves rather than making such sweeping accusations which are so easily disproven.

Er.... it doesn't really matter what a few religo-folk said... when they constructed the government it was to keep it as far away from Church influence as humanly possible so that EVERYONE.... read that again.... EVERYONE.... not just Christians... and not just Chrisitans of a particular ultra-religious flavor... could practice their religion, or not practice ANY religion without governmental interference.

Try these on for size...

George Washington:
"The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy."

Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11: Written during the Administration of George Washington and signed into law by John Adams
"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

John Adams:
"Cabalistic Christianity, which is Catholic Christianity, and which has prevailed for 1,500 years, has received a mortal wound, of which the monster must finally die. Yet so strong is his constitution, that he may endure for centuries before he expires."

Thomas Jefferson:
"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State."

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."

James Madison:
“During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.”

Benjamin Franklin:
"If we look back into history for the character of present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practised it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England, blamed persecution in the Roman church, but practised it against the Puritans: these found it wrong in the Bishops, but fell into the same practice themselves both here and in New England."

“...Some books against Deism fell into my hands....It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quote to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations, in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.”

Thomas Paine:
“Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory in itself than this thing called Christianity”

"Whenever we read the obscene stores (of the Bible), the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the Word of God."

First Amendment:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...”

Constitution Article VI, Section 3:
“...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”

So... put that in your Christian Country pipe and smoke it.

By the by, Jefferson HATED the thought of Christians in government and I'm thinking that purported "quote" you attribute to him just might be from someone else.... so go back and look at my post which really sets forth his feelings on the subject.

I'm also thinking those weren't your words..... though I've seen similar stuff said on religious sites.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Er.... it doesn't really matter what a few religo-folk said... when they constructed the government it was to keep it as far away from Church influence as humanly possible so that EVERYONE.... read that again.... EVERYONE.... not just Christians... and not just Chrisitans of a particular ultra-religious flavor... could practice their religion, or not practice ANY religion without governmental interference.

Try these on for size...

George Washington:
"The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy."

Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11: Written during the Administration of George Washington and signed into law by John Adams
"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

John Adams:
"Cabalistic Christianity, which is Catholic Christianity, and which has prevailed for 1,500 years, has received a mortal wound, of which the monster must finally die. Yet so strong is his constitution, that he may endure for centuries before he expires."

Thomas Jefferson:
"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State."

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."

James Madison:
“During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.”

Benjamin Franklin:
"If we look back into history for the character of present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practised it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England, blamed persecution in the Roman church, but practised it against the Puritans: these found it wrong in the Bishops, but fell into the same practice themselves both here and in New England."

“...Some books against Deism fell into my hands....It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quote to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations, in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.”

Thomas Paine:
“Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory in itself than this thing called Christianity”

"Whenever we read the obscene stores (of the Bible), the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the Word of God."

First Amendment:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...”

Constitution Article VI, Section 3:
“...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”

So... put that in your Christian Country pipe and smoke it.

By the by, Jefferson HATED the thought of Christians in government and I'm thinking that purported "quote" you attribute to him just might be from someone else.... so go back and look at my post which really sets forth his feelings on the subject.

I'm also thinking those weren't your words..... though I've seen similar stuff said on religious sites.

Oh my, such civil discourse !

I dont smoke. But I do support smokers rights. In fact, I got cited for lighting up in a bar when they passed non smoking laws here in california. I KNEW at the time it was a trend started and supported by liberals that would one day end up with decisions like our recent emminent domain ruling.

Now, before I take the time to show you why your quotes dont support your agenda, let me ask you this.

Simply on a pragmatic level, why is it that at the beginning of our country, we had so many references in govt writings, legal doc's, institutions, buildings, parks, etc etc involving Christianity and religion, and SINCE then, it has been a slope downhill towards removing Christianity from the country as much as possible by atheists?

I mean, if it were as you claim, then there would have been no mention of God or Creator in the Declaration of Ind. It was that document, and that document alone, that gave the authority to the colonies to write the Constitution. That document gave the Constitution the authority to list rights that we had that could not be taken away by govt, because, as the DOI stated, they were given us by our Creator.

Now, if you do a legal search and follow the trail of legal decisions involving seperation of church and state, and if you do a research on how much Christian references there are in legal and official govt documents, you will find it was at its highest during our initial independence and has slowly, until recently, been getting less and less since then.

If your opinion were accurate, we would have seen an immediate distainment of all things Christian and religious, but we dont see that. All of the uses of Christianity/religion would have been non existent from the beginning.

By the way, I dont see your sources.

and dont forget, before I disect your post into molecules, remember, this is a LEGAL issue. Thats why its foremost battleground is the courts.
Now, when dealing with legal issues, we know the subtle difference between some apparently synonomous words can actually be quite great. After all, your great and glorious leader did say, "that depends of what the definition of is, is". (one of a few lines that will haunt him till he dies).
Let me give you a clue. Not trusting in CHRISTIAN CLERGY is not the same as NOT TRUSTING IN CHRISTIANITY. Dont forget, these guys just came out of a EUrope that had been abusing the power of the chruch for their own evil desires. And that the King Of England had distorted the religion in England so that he may divorce and marry again.

Lastly, and this one I willl harp on till you give up, (although I will still gleefully shred every other item in your post), IF THE FATHERS DIDNT WANT CHRISTIANITY OR RELIGION IN GOVT. THEN WHY DID THEY GO BACK TO THEIR RESPECTIVE STATES AND VOTE IN LEGISLATION DECLARING AN OFFICIAL STATE SANCTIONED CHURCH IN MOST OF THE THEN EXISTING COLONIES.?????????????

 

[trobinett]

LuvRPgrl posts:

Lastly, and this one I willl harp on till you give up, (although I will still gleefully shred every other item in your post), IF THE FATHERS DIDNT WANT CHRISTIANITY OR RELIGION IN GOVT. THEN WHY DID THEY GO BACK TO THEIR RESPECTIVE STATES AND VOTE IN LEGISLATION DECLARING AN OFFICIAL STATE SANCTIONED CHURCH IN MOST OF THE THEN EXISTING COLONIES.?????????????

Liberals respond: Well, er....:baby:

 

[jillian]

Lastly, and this one I willl harp on till you give up, (although I will still gleefully shred every other item in your post), IF THE FATHERS DIDNT WANT CHRISTIANITY OR RELIGION IN GOVT. THEN WHY DID THEY GO BACK TO THEIR RESPECTIVE STATES AND VOTE IN LEGISLATION DECLARING AN OFFICIAL STATE SANCTIONED CHURCH IN MOST OF THE THEN EXISTING COLONIES.?????????????

Dude, you've never shredded a single thing I've said and your ignorance is actually quite amusing, if astounding.

Do provide proof, though, of the "state sanctioned church", since such a thing would be in clear violation of the Constitution.

By the way, just for the record, since you opined as to what "liberals" want.... I think business owners should be able to decide for themselves if they want their establishment to be smoking or non-smoking and then the customer has the right to decide whether they go there or not.

I'm not quite sure what that has to do with the discussion at hand, but since you raised it....

As for this being at the forefront of legal issues... it is only when the radical right makes it a legal issue. But thanks for the heads up... I'll take that into consideration next time I do a Memo of Law at work.

 

[jillian]

LuvRPgrl posts:



Liberals respond: Well, er....:baby:

Er...nothing.... it would violate the Constitution... you've heard of a little thing called the First Amendment, no?

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Funny... he felt he was a true conservative and so did everyone else. He believed in small government and balanced budgets. He wasn't pro-small government except when it comes to others' bedrooms

I love when the radical religious right tries to pretend that the Founding Fathers set up a "christian" country. I guess you believe in fairy tales, huh?

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth.html

Luckily you aren't an "ordinary Christian". You're a zealot. Normal Christians do not say insane things like "if Roe v Wade is repealed rapes will go down because women will have to be more responsible"

I love you whining zealots who respond to the rest of us who don't want you creating a theocracy with "whhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaa... you hate Christians"... whaaaaaaaaaa...whaaaaaaaaaaaaa.... freaking whaaaaaaaaaaaa:baby:

You know that isn't what I said at all. Yet you persist in repeating that little paranoid fantasy of yours.

I've been very clear about what I believe. I am pro existing life. Pro science. Pro education. Pro live and let live.... Pro governing my own behavior and not allowing a crackpot extremist to try to do it for me. I'm pro the Constitution and against violating its letter AND spirit. Pro being able to practice religion in one's house of worship and one's home but not in the governmental arena... where it is only allowed to interfere in theocracies. Again... we don't live in one and I'll cast any ballot I have to to keep you guys from making it one.

I've repeatedly made it clear that I'm not an athiest. That would be Grump. I'm a believer but not in what you believe.

I don't really care what you believe.

Yup... typical extremist response... "you're not a fundie Christian so you must be an amoral Christian-hating athiest".

What a crock.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to LuvRPgrl again.

OK, so we could say you are a Deist? or should we say deist, uncapitalized because I'm sure you believe in your own personal twist. You've given us the standard pat answer from the Left, at least those of the Left who continue to believe in God but are no longer Christian or believers in any other religion. You guys always dredge up Thomas Jefferson as though he is your savior in the false argument of "separation of church and state".

A Deist believes in a Designer or God or Deity, therefore is not an atheist. Deism differs from religion because it believes in nature and reason but not in revelation. Deists however do pray thanks and appreciation to God. Deism encourages self-reliance, use of reason, and to question authority. A Deist makes no unreasonable claims, such as Moses parted the Red Sea or Jesus walked on water and so does not rely on faith as do Christians. Deism believes in learning and gaining knowledge instead of superstition or fairy tales.
http://www.deism.com/deism_defined.htm

So Thomas Jefferson believed in a God. Why is it then that the liberal Left attempts to erase God entirely from the schools, the Courts, and everywhere else in our governmental system? Thomas Jefferson had no quibble about praying to God or acknowledging God in government functions.

As a result of Thomas Jefferson's (and other founder's) concerns about a religion running the government, it was put in the Constitution that there can be no establishment of religion. On this point, I wholly agree with you. However, no establishment did not mean no expression of religion. Our right to such expression is retained in our right to free speech. We all know that the Founders prayed to God at government functions, including Thomas Jefferson. Thomas Jefferson did not oppose the heavy-duty praying that occurred at government functions….today's praying is anemic compared to back then...

As a Deist, Thomas Jefferson believed in nature and reason and the pursuit of knowledge. Nature and reason and scientific knowledge today tells us today that conception is the beginning of human life. Thus it is very reasonable to believe that a zygote is the start of a human being. Why is it so unreasonable to oppose the killing of such life which is actually a developing human being? Is it natural and reasonable to create human life only to kill it in the pursuit of other interests? Would it be natural and reasonable to you if we kill your child if by doing so we could possibly save 100 other people? I think not. This natural reasoning is not necessarily based in religious "dogma". However, it is amazing how much religious "dogma" turns out to be backed up by science, but that's another topic. Grump sneers that I sound like a "screaming eagle"....heh, of course I do....even in NATURE parent eagles become "screaming eagles" when their nest of eggs are threatened. Why shouldn't man also scream when his future generations are threatened? Purely natural.

Once again you are wrong in thinking that I am some sort of "zealot". Just read the last paragraph again and you will understand the gist of my thinking on ESCR. "Zealot" is a word being used by the godless Left and their followers to marginalize (see Eightball's definition) religious citizens in this country who have a RIGHT to exist and to express their beliefs, no matter what crap they believe. Regarding the rape argument, I used plenty of rational reasoning to support my claims. But you are so brainwashed by the Left that you cannot accept or even deal with such rational arguments and so prefer instead to shut people up with personal attacks. My thinking had nothing to do with "zealotry".

Following are a few examples of Christian beliefs that I believe are/should be expressed in our laws. Maybe some of these are your beliefs too. These laws which are based in Christian (and other) beliefs do not prohibit you from entertaining your own belief system as long as you follow the law. If you belong to a satanic cult that believes in murdering people or perhaps a Muslim sect that believes you can beat your wife to death you'll run into trouble with the law. Those are some beliefs we do not allow to be "expressed" in America. Obviously there are some lines that need to be drawn….which lines we choose to enact (via our vote) are based upon our beliefs, Christian or otherwise.

Thou shalt not kill.
Laws that prohibit the murder of human beings, including the most innocent and helpless among us.

Thou shalt not steal.
Laws that prohibit all forms of stealing property from one another - including government theft of private property.

Thou shalt honor thy mother and father.
Laws that allow parents the right to be notified of their daughter's pregnancy before she elects to get an abortion.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Laws that allow a woman (or man) a better settlement in a divorce if they've been cheated on.

Finally, what gives you the right to claim that your Deist beliefs (or whatever) are any better than my Christian beliefs? Well, as a matter of fact, the Constitution gives you that right. And me too. I have the Constitutional right to claim that my Christian beliefs are better than yours. As long as we do not establish a government religion we both have the right to express ourselves politically and to enact legislation that reflects those beliefs OR is that something you cannot TOLERATE??

 

[ScreamingEagle]

And therein lies the rub....

The rub can go either way….too much religion or too little.