MIC

kevinthrowe

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Nationalization of the MIC would save tax payers $250 billion a year.
No one in the DOD loop should make more than the generals.
 
Nationalization of the MIC would save tax payers $250 billion a year.
No one in the DOD loop should make more than the generals.
Nationalization of the MIC would destroy the innovation we need to maintain military superiority.
 
No one in the DOD loop should make more than the generals.

Good luck getting the salaries reduced of a lot of the Union membership that makes up most of the DoD. Quite literally over 1/3 of the US DoD payroll (including military members) are civilians. And that is not even counting the contractors, add them in and there are more civilians paid to work in the military than there are members in the military.
 
Good luck getting the salaries reduced of a lot of the Union membership that makes up most of the DoD. Quite literally over 1/3 of the US DoD payroll (including military members) are civilians. And that is not even counting the contractors, add them in and there are more civilians paid to work in the military than there are members in the military.
Not the workers the administration overhead. CEO,CFO, CIO, COO, etc.
A nationalized MIC would give America a DOD training system.
Basic training followed by trade school style training.
Soldiers with electric, machine, metal, training skills they can use forever rather than
‘ I put a round in a tube”
 
Not the workers the administration overhead. CEO,CFO, CIO, COO, etc.
A nationalized MIC would give America a DOD training system.

What in the hell do you think the "MIC" is?

The largest quantity and quality that the freaking DoD buys is food, medical supplies, and copier paper!

It's clearly obvious here that you really have no idea what you are even talking about, do you? You just globbed onto some talking point and are going to go on and on about it even though you know little about it.

Let's start with the most expensive thing the US military buys, ships. Yes, they are built by civilians, on US Navy shipyards. The USS John F Kennedy currently being built by Grumman? It's being done at the US Navy Shipyard at Newport News. And no, the Navy has never built their own ships. To be perfectly honest, they never could. That is a highly skilled labor force, the kind of labor force the Navy itself has never been able to maintain.

Then there is the airplanes. Are you even aware that the vast majority of those are also built right on US military land? There are over a dozen of those, ranging from Plant 4 near Fort Worth that builds F-16 and F-35 fighters to the world famous Plant 42 (which I used to live less than a mile from) which at this time is building RQ-4 Global Hawk drones as well as CLASSIFIED.

And I can go on, because the large equipment of the Army are also built at plants that the DoD and the branch that primarily uses it controls.

And for most of those companies, they do a hell of a lot more than just military projects. Boeing makes far more for the rest of their aviation endeavors than they do from military contracts. Yet, you want to take it over?

This to me sounds like "How can I show people I'm a flaming Marxist, without being called a Communist?"

Especially as you are talking about making members of the military learn those skills. Ahh, and where are you going to get all of them? You are aware it takes years and decades to learn those skills, right? So what is the minimum enlistment period going to be, ten years? And when you can't get enough to volunteer for ten years, you start conscription?

That sounds a hell of a lot like slavery to me.
 
What in the hell do you think the "MIC" is?

The largest quantity and quality that the freaking DoD buys is food, medical supplies, and copier paper!

It's clearly obvious here that you really have no idea what you are even talking about, do you? You just globbed onto some talking point and are going to go on and on about it even though you know little about it.

Let's start with the most expensive thing the US military buys, ships. Yes, they are built by civilians, on US Navy shipyards. The USS John F Kennedy currently being built by Grumman? It's being done at the US Navy Shipyard at Newport News. And no, the Navy has never built their own ships. To be perfectly honest, they never could. That is a highly skilled labor force, the kind of labor force the Navy itself has never been able to maintain.

Then there is the airplanes. Are you even aware that the vast majority of those are also built right on US military land? There are over a dozen of those, ranging from Plant 4 near Fort Worth that builds F-16 and F-35 fighters to the world famous Plant 42 (which I used to live less than a mile from) which at this time is building RQ-4 Global Hawk drones as well as CLASSIFIED.

And I can go on, because the large equipment of the Army are also built at plants that the DoD and the branch that primarily uses it controls.

And for most of those companies, they do a hell of a lot more than just military projects. Boeing makes far more for the rest of their aviation endeavors than they do from military contracts. Yet, you want to take it over?

This to me sounds like "How can I show people I'm a flaming Marxist, without being called a Communist?"

Especially as you are talking about making members of the military learn those skills. Ahh, and where are you going to get all of them? You are aware it takes years and decades to learn those skills, right? So what is the minimum enlistment period going to be, ten years? And when you can't get enough to volunteer for ten years, you start conscription?

That sounds a hell of a lot like slavery to me.
The Military Industrial Complex is well documented as a waste of tax money.
The companies in this group have above average profit margins.
Nationalization of the MIC would save around $200 billion
 
The Military Industrial Complex is well documented as a waste of tax money.
The companies in this group have above average profit margins.
Nationalization of the MIC would save around $200 billion
Lots of good high paying jobs in the MIC.
 
The Military Industrial Complex is well documented as a waste of tax money.
The companies in this group have above average profit margins.
Nationalization of the MIC would save around $200 billion

Got it, you do not know and do not care what it is, you just want to see it Nationalized.

Thank you for making that clear Mister Marxist.
 
Lots of good high paying jobs in the MIC.
On the assembly line that is a good thing in the staff room that is a bad idea. No one in the DoD loop should make more than the chief of staff of the DoD.
 
Lots of good high paying jobs in the MIC.

What I am finding funny is that I actually know what one of the larger companies involved is.

Boise-Cascade.

They sell tens of billions of dollars each year to the DoD, and all of the component branches. Almost entirely paper and furniture.

I would list Skilcraft, that's another major company where almost 100% of what they make is sold to the government. In fact, if the government stopped purchasing from them the company would quickly become bankrupt.
 
Got it, you do not know and do not care what it is, you just want to see it Nationalized.

Thank you for making that clear Mister Marxist.
Nationalized would have all in the plants become soldiers, after BCT the MOS’s could be transferable skills. Most MOS’s have no jobs in the civilian market. My one buddy was the leader on a mortar squad. 11 B is not a well desired skill in the civilian sector
 
Nationalized would have all in the plants become soldiers, after BCT the MOS’s could be transferable skills. Most MOS’s have no jobs in the civilian market. My one buddy was the leader on a mortar squad. 11 B is not a well desired skill in the civilian sector

This is the biggest load of horse pucky I think I have ever seen.

Most of the people that work in those facilities have 15 or more years of experience. Do you really think that you are going to do a massive expansion of the military, and then sit back and wait for a decade for them to gain the experience needed?

And exactly as you said, they will have a transferrable skill. So unless you can find some way to force them to remain in the military, after they finish their first enlistment they are going to be "throwing deuces" and departing the military.

You know, this is something the military has had to deal with in the past, right? Here, sit back and listen while Poppa Mushroom tells you a story.

Back in 1955, the US Army was facing this exact problem. Not in construction, but in skills. They were training individuals in new cutting edge skills like RADAR, Missiles, and Computers. Now those skills were not open to the two year draftees, you had to volunteer for a minimum of four to six years in order to be trained in those skills. And then the Army quickly noticed that the vast majority they had gone to the trouble to train were leaving as soon as their contracts were up.

So they invented a new rank system for them. This was called the "Specialist". They ranged from Specialist 4 through Specialist 7. In short, these were Privates that were paid the same as Corporals, Sergeants, Staff Sergeants and Sergeant First Class. And it threw the Army into disorder, as these new Specialists were not Non-Commissioned Officers. It helped maintain higher numbers, as it let them pay their highly technical Specialists more money, but they were not "Leaders". If you got stuck as a Specialist 6 or 7, that was it. In order to move up you had to be demoted back to a Sergeant and work your way back up again.

Finally in 1978, they decided enough was enough. The upper ranks were in chaos, as you had people trapped at the pay grade of E-7 that could never advance to E-8 without being sent all the way back to E-5 and working their way back up again. So in 1978 they eliminated Specialist 7, and in the following years eliminated Specialist 6 and 5, until all that is left today is the old rank of "Specialist 4", which is now simply called "Specialist".

This is the funny thing, this has actually already been done before. The only way to keep them from departing once they got the training was to pay them more. Which in the end caused a huge amount of chaos in the system.

And training somebody how to assemble a tank hull is nothing like training somebody to be an 11B. Trust me, I know how that is first hand. My first MOS school was just over a month as an 0311. My second MOS school was as a PATRIOT crewman, that was over three months. My final MOS school, that was five months to become IT.

You are talking about setting up something completely different. Before somebody becomes a Shipfitter Apprentice, they have four years of training. You are literally now talking about a 4 year MOS school before they even step into the shipyard. What, are you going to force them to sign up for the maximum enlistment of 6 years, only to spend 2/3 of the time simply training them? Then watch as they wave goodbye after they finish their 6 years and walk away and take those skills elsewhere?

Or are you going to expand the maximum enlistment to 8 years, so you at least get back as much time from them in actually doing work as you did training them?

Once again, your complete lack of understanding anything is completely obvious here. And the only way you can ever make this work is if you force these individuals to serve 10+ years. And then you are going to have the exact same problem that the Army ran into in the 1950s. Because after 10 years, these individuals are not going to be happy being paid as Privates, in the Navy they are going to demand to be paid as if they are Senior Petty Officers. And that becomes the classic "Too many Chiefs, not enough Indians" problem unless you create a "Non-NCO NCO" rank like the Specialist.

The only possible solution to this is in effect slavery. Where those you assign to build this equipment are slaves and have no choice because you will not let them leave. Hell, even the Soviet Union was not that freaking stupid, and all of their equipment was built not by the military but by civilians.

Granted, civilians who were slaves, but that's another matter.
 
Now, here is a carrot to go with that stick I just finished waving around.

Want to know how you can really do something like this? Get rid of all the damned contractors in the DoD.

Back in the early 1990s, a hell of a lot of the tasks done on bases used to be done by the military itself. But the RIFs and huge reduction of the number in the military then left them unable to do a lot of those tasks. And at that time under the Clinton Administration there was a massive increase in the number of contractors in the DoD.

Back before then, when you were assigned to a unit one of the first places you reported to was your unit Supply Sergeant. Where you were issued everything you needed to do your jobs, from sleeping bags and packs to shelter halves, helmets and body armor. This was done at the Battalion level, and that supply section would have around a dozen individuals who did that task.

Go into a chow hall, and you would see from 2-5 civilians. They were the "long term continuity" staff, supervisors who were there for 10+ years, unlike the enlisted who worked there for no more than 2-3 years before moving on. Even in the scullery, the dishes were all cleaned by lower enlisted. Not as a job, just a 30 day duty they might get tasked with once every year or two.

And it was the same all over. Get told for a week you were being sent to the "Sergeant Major's Detail", where you spent that week doing things like painting or mowing the grass. Or being sent out to a sub-camp on your base to break down the furniture in some training barracks and installing new furniture.

Today, those jobs are not done by the military. They are all done by contractors that are paid by the military to do them.

Oh, but wait a moment...

modern-family-worse.gif


At one time, the top or next to top enlisted member of a Company sized unit was in charge of their barracks. Either the Company Gunny or Company First Sergeant would assign individuals to their rooms. And on a weekly basis they would inspect and maintain those rooms. If individuals had problems with their roommates, they would go talk to them and they would be reassigned.

Even base housing was handled by the military. A few DoD civilian employees (not contractors) once again as long term continuity, but a lot of the work and other tasks done by either military or actual DoD employees.

No all of that is contracted. These civilian companies are paid by the military to run things like housing and barracks, and is then paid rent on top of that for their use. And that is another nightmare, as if you and your roommate do not get along, you have to make an appointment with that civilian company, and they may or may not move one of the individuals to another room.

And when I was at Fort Bliss, we have yet another problem. When checking out of the unit before then, you got up on your last day, threw everything in your car and would hand your room key to the First Sergeant before getting a handshake and kick in the butt to go away. Now, as part of the check-put process you have to clear the room normally 2-4 days prior to your final day. That means you literally have to rent a room in a hotel for your last week. Because that civilian company has already taken your key, that's their room and you can't be in there anymore.

One of my largest frustrations my last decade in was being stationed at Camp Parks. A large training base near Baghdad by the Bay. Now there were over a dozen barracks there, ranging from open squad bays to 1-2 man rooms. And most of them were empty, they were never used. Meanwhile, each drill weekend we would have to arrange a hundred or so rooms at the Hilton or some other hotel for everybody that did not live within 50 miles of the base.

Why? Because those barracks were now run by civilian contractors, and the unit had to pay to use them. And I do not bullshit here, it cost more to arrange to put 100-200 soldiers in the barracks than it did to simply pay for them to get rooms in the Hilton.

And do not even get me started on the teams of 3 contractors on Fort Bliss that literally did nothing but run around replacing light bulbs. It is no joke, it was determined that Soldiers were too stupid to replace light bulbs, so they had to contact Public Works if one went out. And they would then send out a team of 3 people to replace them. And no, nothing special or magical about them, just good old light bulbs and light tubes.

Want to "cut the fat" in a way that matters in the DoD? Cut out all the damned contractors that have taken over in the last three decades. We don't need 6 contractors washing dishes in a chow hall. Hell, most of the times I had Privates coming out my ass that I would have loved to send to do a month doing KP just so they would be doing something useful for their pay for a change.

I think that was the biggest change I saw in the military from 1993 when I left, and 2007 when I returned. In the 1980s and early 1990s, there were few civilians on most bases and most of them were DoD employees. When I returned, there were civilians everywhere and most were contractors. And being paid far more than the military and DoD employees they replaced.
 
Oh, and something I forgot to mention.

If you are in the military and have a family, you get extra pay. This is to allow you and your family to live in something that is nice and not some converted chicken coop. But if you elect to live in base housing, the military takes that away. After all, they are paying for your housing, why should you get more money?

Well, then in comes the contractors. Balfour-Beatty is one of the largest in the country that does this. They simply took the idea of townhome type apartments and moved it to the military bases. They get paid by the military to maintain the housing. And the housing allowance to the servicemember is now paid. Where they then have to turn around and write a check to Balfour-Beatty for rent.

And that's a sweet deal for them, as they get paid to maintain the facilities, as well as getting paid rent on top of it. A real win-win for them.

And trust me, when you take in all the contracts for things like barracks, housing, maintenance, medical facilities, supply facilities, and all the rest that is actually a hell of a lot more money than the "nickels and dimes" of the procurement of new equipment.

dod-budget-fy2014.jpg


Here is a breakdown of the military budget from 2014, but the percentages are pretty much the same today. And when it comes to the pieces of the pie, the largest by far is "Operations and Maintenance". And that includes things like most of those contractors that now do a huge amount of the work that three decades ago the military itself did.

I used to run a training facility on a base. This was the ranges, there were 10 of us that did everything on about two dozen firing ranges on the base. Today, that job would be entirely be done by civilians. And probably a lot more of them, as if there was a night firing scheduled or firing on a weekend, the Gunny would simply point at one of us and we got that extra duty with no extra pay.

No way in hell some civilians are going to put in an extra 8 hours of work for nothing.

You really are barking up the wrong tree here as to where the money is going. Procurement is far smaller than military personnel, it's even lower than operations and maintenance. It's not significantly higher than R&D.
 
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