Mexican Cartels found with 20,499 US made guns

[Skynet]

"If your only source of information is the mainstream media, what you think you know may not be correct. Take the quiz below and test your knowledge.
1. Thousands of children die annually in gun accidents.
David Lampo is the publications director at the Cato Institute.




False. Gun accidents involving children are actually at record lows, although you wouldn't know it from listening to the mainstream media. In 1997, the last year for which data are available, only 142 children under 15 years of age died in gun accidents, and the total number of gun-related deaths for this age group was 642. More children die each year in accidents involving bikes, space heaters or drownings. The often repeated claim that 12 children per day die from gun violence includes "children" up to 20 years of age, the great majority of whom are young adult males who die in gang-related violence.
2. Gun shows are responsible for a large number of firearms falling into the hands of criminals.
False. Contrary to President Clinton's claims, there is no "gun show loophole." All commercial arms dealers at gun shows must run background checks, and the only people exempt from them are the small number of non-commercial sellers. According to the U.S. Department of Justice, at most 2 percent of guns used by criminals are purchased at gun shows, and most of those were purchased legally by people who passed background checks.
3. The tragedy at Columbine High School a year ago illustrates the deficiencies of current gun control laws.
False. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold violated close to 20 firearms laws in amassing their cache of weapons (not to mention the law against murder), so it seems rather dubious to argue that additional laws might have prevented this tragedy. The two shotguns and rifle used by Harris and Klebold were purchased by a girlfriend who would have passed a background check, and the TEC-9 handgun used by them was already illegal.
4. States that allow registered citizens to carry concealed weapons have lower crime rates than those that don't.
True. The 31 states that have "shall issue" laws allowing private citizens to carry concealed weapons have, on average, a 24 percent lower violent crime rate, a 19 percent lower murder rate and a 39 percent lower robbery rate than states that forbid concealed weapons. In fact, the nine states with the lowest violent crime rates are all right-to-carry states. Remarkably, guns are used for self-defense more than 2 million times a year, three to five times the estimated number of violent crimes committed with guns.
5. Waiting periods lower crime rates.
False. Numerous studies have been conducted on the effects of waiting periods, both before and after the federal Brady bill was passed in 1993. Those studies consistently show that there is no correlation between waiting periods and murder or robbery rates. Florida State University professor Gary Kleck analyzed data from every U.S. city with a population over 100,000 and found that waiting periods had no statistically significant effect. Even University of Maryland anti-gun researcher David McDowell found that "waiting periods have no influence on either gun homicides or gun suicides."
6. Lower murder rates in foreign countries prove that gun control works.
False. This is one of the favorite arguments of gun control proponents, and yet the facts show that there is simply no correlation between gun control laws and murder or suicide rates across a wide spectrum of nations and cultures. In Israel and Switzerland, for example, a license to possess guns is available on demand to every law-abiding adult, and guns are easily obtainable in both nations. Both countries also allow widespread carrying of concealed firearms, and yet, admits Dr. Arthur Kellerman, one of the foremost medical advocates of gun control, Switzerland and Israel "have rates of homicide that are low despite rates of home firearm ownership that are at least as high as those in the United States." A comparison of crime rates within Europe reveals no correlation between access to guns and crime.
The basic premise of the gun control movement, that easy access to guns causes higher crime, is contradicted by the facts, by history and by reason. "
Gun Control: Myths and Realities | David Lampo | Cato Institute: Daily Commentary

Cato was founded in 1977 by Edward H. Crane and Charles Koch,the billionaire co-owner of Koch Industries known for its financing of the Tea Party and various extreme right front groups. David Koch is currently on Cato's Board of Directors. "According to the Center for Public Integrity, between 1986 and 1993 the Koch family gave eleven million dollars to the [Cato] institute..


thanks for playing

 

[Uncensored2008]

so the one article i could find stated it was the Arizona ATF. are we to blame Jane Brewer for this or Obama for this? or many somebody else.....

The FEDERAL bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms reports to "Jane" (sic) Brewer?

ROFL

You put the "mindless" in "mindless sycophant."

 

[BolshevikHunter]

that could be true... its still a sad fact that US made weapons find their way into the hands of criminals.

And you think disarming US Citizens would cut down on weapons in the hands of Mexican criminals?

Anyone else see a flaw in that logic?

Maybe if you shoot your dog, it will keep the dog down the block from barking.....

who said anything about disarming citizens? why cant you understand gun control does not equal gun elimination. if you cant understand that, then we cant have a civil debate.

It's kind of like how dope (pot) leads to stronger drugs. I don't see a difference between gun control and banning all firearms. Gun control is just the first few steps on the ladder. Before you know it, everything is in their control. If you give these assholes an inch, you can bet your ass that they will take a mile. They can fuck off. ~BH

 

[Skynet]

Okay, are you done with that ?

Good.

Now here is the bottom line.

Gun Control doesn't work...never has.

Gun laws only penalize law abiding citizens, criminals by definition don't obey the law.

There are more guns in the U.S. than ever before, thanks in no small part to President Obama...and yet violent crime is still at all time lows.

Obama did the NRA a huge favor...he singlehandedly proved beyond any doubt that more guns equals less crime during the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression.

Now, you tell me, why should we impose gun control.

gun control do in fact work.

States with Higher Gun Ownership and Weak Gun Laws Lead Nation in Gun Death

VPC - Press Release - (05/06/2009) - States with Higher Gun Ownership and Weak Gun Laws Lead Nation in Gun Death

States with the Five Highest Gun Death Rates
Rank State Gun Ownership Gun Deaths / 100,000
1 Louisiana 45.6 percent 19.58
2 Alabama 57.2 percent 16.99
3 Alaska 60.6 percent 16.38
3 Mississippi 54.3 percent 16.38
5 Nevada 31.5 percent 16.25

States with the Five Lowest Gun Death Rates

Rank State Gun Ownership Gun Deaths / 100,000
50 Hawaii 9.7 percent 2.58
49 Massachusetts 12.8 percent 3.28
48 Rhode Island 13.3 percent 4.43
47 Connecticut 16.2 percent 4.95
46 New York 18.1 percent 5.20

VPC Legislative Director Kristen Rand states, "More guns means more gun death and injury. Fewer guns means less gun death and injury. It's a simple equation."

The VPC defined states with "weak" gun laws as those that add little or nothing to federal restrictions and have permissive concealed carry laws allowing civilians to carry concealed handguns. States with "strong" gun laws were defined as those that add significant state regulation in addition to federal law, such as restricting access to particularly hazardous types of firearms (for example, assault weapons), setting minimum safety standards for firearms and/or requiring a permit to purchase a firearm, and have restrictive concealed carry laws.

Here's the truth on gun related homicide and gun control by state...this excludes suicide, which gun control isn't going to stop.

[FONT=arial,arial]These are the 13 states with the most pro-Second Amendment laws according to the Brady Center (Oklahoma being the most pro-Second Amendment in the nation) with total firearm murders from 2007 according to the FBI and population from the Census Bureau:[/FONT]​

----------State-----------------------------# of Firearm Homicides-----------Population​

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

• Arkansas ----------------------130 ------------2,810,872
• [FONT=arial,arial]Idaho -------------------------------------------------25 ---------------------1,466,465[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]New Mexico ---------------------------------------81 ---------------------1,954,599[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]South Dakota ---------------------------------------4 -----------------------781,919[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]West Virginia --------------------------------------37 --------------------1,818,470[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]Mississippi ---------------------------------------119 ---------------------2,910,540[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]Alaska -----------------------------------------------21 --------------------- 670,053[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]Louisiana ------------------------------------------455----------------------4,287,768[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]Missouri -------------------------------------------247 ---------------------5,842,713[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]North Dakota ----------------------------------------3 -----------------------635,867[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]Utah ---------------------------------------------------38 --------------------2,550,063[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]Kentucky ------------------------------------------131 --------------------4,206,074[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]Oklahoma -------------------------------- --------132 --------------------3,579,212[/FONT]

And the 13 strictest gun control states according to the Brady Center (California being the strictest in the nation) with total firearm murders from 2007 according to the FBI and population from the Census Bureau:

• California -----------------------1,605-----36,457,549
• New Jersey ----------------------260-------8,724,560
• Connecticut ----------------------57 -------3,504,809
• Massachusetts ------------------114 -------6,437,193
• Maryland ------------------------414------- 5,615,727
• New York ------------------------500 -----19,306,183
• Rhode Island -------------------- --9 ------ 1,067,610
• Hawaii -----------------------------3 -------1,285,498
• Illinois ---------------------------343* -----12,831,970
• Pennsylvania ---------------------527 ------12,440,621
• Michigan -------------------------444 ------10,095,643
• Delaware--------------------------22 ---------853,476
• North Carolina--------------------369 --------8,856,505

* incomplete data received by the FBI



The District of Columbia is not listed on the Brady Center ranking list but it did have the strictest gun control in the nation in 2007:

• District of Columbia-----------------181--------581,530

So here is the break down for firearm homicides per number of citizens per state plus the District of Columbia with Washington D.C. being the most dangerous place to live with 1 out of every 3,212 residents murdered by firearms and Hawaii being the safest with 1 out of every 428,499 residents murdered by firearms.



The number listed is the population divided by the total firearm homicides to render 1 homicide per (X) number of residents. (Red are Strict Gun Control, Blue are Pro-gun)

1. District of Columbia -----------1 / 3,212
2. Louisiana ---------------------1 / 9,423
3. Maryland ---------------------1 / 13,564
4. Arkansas ---------------------1 / 21,622
5. California ---------------------1 / 22,714
6. Michigan ---------------------1 / 22,737
7. Pennsylvania -----------------1 / 23,606
8. Missouri ----------------------1 / 23,654
9. North Carolina ----------------1 / 24,001
10. New Mexico ------------------1 / 24,130
11. Mississippi --------------------1 / 24,458
12. Oklahoma --------------------1 / 25,115
13. Alaska -----------------------1 / 31,907
14. Kentucky ---------------------1 / 32,107
15. New Jersey -------------------1 / 33,556
16. Illinois ------------------------1 / 37,410
17. New York ---------------------1 / 38,612
18. Delaware ---------------------1 / 38,794
19. West Virgina ------------------1 / 49,147
20. Massachusetts ----------------1 / 56,466
21. Idaho -------------------------1 / 58,658
22. Connecticut -------------------1 / 61,487
23. Utah --------------------------1 / 67,106
24. Rhode Island -------------------1 / 118,623
25. South Dakota ------------------1 / 195,479
26. North Dakota -------------------1 / 211,955
27. Hawaii -------------------------1 / 428,499

Bottom line, stricter firearm laws have no effect on firearm homicides.



That is why the Brady Center uses violent crime or firearm deaths instead of actual firearm homicides even though the firearm homicides are provided by the FBI online every year.






Link to FBI Stats Table 20 - Crime in the United States 2007

Link to Brady Center state rankings list http://www.stategunlaws.org/xshare/p...d_rankings.pdf

Population from the U.S. Census Bureau State and County QuickFacts

Wikipedia Firearm Homicides for the District of Columbia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Washington,_D.C.



http://www.usmessageboard.com/law-and-justice-system/94179-open-carry-firearms-our-2nd-amendment-right-10.html#post1794625

none of those links work

 

[Skynet]

And you think disarming US Citizens would cut down on weapons in the hands of Mexican criminals?

Anyone else see a flaw in that logic?

Maybe if you shoot your dog, it will keep the dog down the block from barking.....

who said anything about disarming citizens? why cant you understand gun control does not equal gun elimination. if you cant understand that, then we cant have a civil debate.

It's kind of like how dope (pot) leads to stronger drugs. I don't see a difference between gun control and banning all firearms. Gun control is just the first few steps on the ladder. Before you know it, everything is in their control. If you give these assholes an inch, you can bet your ass that they will take a mile. They can fuck off. ~BH

thats where your argument has to change. i never said anything about banning all guns. i said banning automatic weapons, large capacity clips, requiring background check for all gun purchases public and private, and ballistic testing all weapons that manufacturer so they can be traced back to owners. can you debate these facts?

 

[boedicca]

who said anything about disarming citizens? why cant you understand gun control does not equal gun elimination. if you cant understand that, then we cant have a civil debate.

It's kind of like how dope (pot) leads to stronger drugs. I don't see a difference between gun control and banning all firearms. Gun control is just the first few steps on the ladder. Before you know it, everything is in their control. If you give these assholes an inch, you can bet your ass that they will take a mile. They can fuck off. ~BH

thats where your argument has to change. i never said anything about banning all guns. i said banning automatic weapons, large capacity clips, requiring background check for all gun purchases public and private, and ballistic testing all weapons that manufacturer so they can be traced back to owners. can you debate these facts?

You haven't provided any evidence that these represent material factors in increasing homicides.

 

[Skynet]

You really are a gullible shill for government propaganda, you sad little hack.

The data you provided is garbage. It isn't broken down by cause of death, whether or not the gun was legally owned and registered, and gang violence.


Gun related suicides outnumber gun related homicides across the country. People intent on suicide are going to find away. Someone doesn't just get a whim to kill himself because he has access to a gun (unless he's a moron like you, in which case, your paranoia is duly noted).

Most gun related homicides in the country are the result of drug gang violence. Legal gun owners are not the cause of that.

thanks for making up facts.... cause your evidence is overwhelming... wait you didnt post any evidence...... damn fucked up again didnt you?

You are an idiot. You haven't even read up on the data behind the misleading stats you presented, or you would know that the majority of gun fatalities are suicides.


How Are Victims Killed?

Homicide: 11,624 / 39% of All Fatalities
Suicide: 16,750 / 57% of All Fatalities
Unintentional Death (Accidental): 649 / 2% of All Fatalities

National Firearm Injury and Death Statistics | Washington CeaseFire

so mentally ill people should be able to get fire arms easier? hmmmm go have that debate with the people who died at Virginia Tech, or Congress Woman Giffords.

 

[boedicca]

thanks for making up facts.... cause your evidence is overwhelming... wait you didnt post any evidence...... damn fucked up again didnt you?

You are an idiot. You haven't even read up on the data behind the misleading stats you presented, or you would know that the majority of gun fatalities are suicides.


How Are Victims Killed?

Homicide: 11,624 / 39% of All Fatalities
Suicide: 16,750 / 57% of All Fatalities
Unintentional Death (Accidental): 649 / 2% of All Fatalities

National Firearm Injury and Death Statistics | Washington CeaseFire

so mentally ill people should be able to get fire arms easier? hmmmm go have that debate with the people who died at Virginia Tech, or Congress Woman Giffords.

Please provide a link to any comment I made which advocated making guns available to mentally ill people. I don't recall ever making such a comment.

 

[AllieBaba]

"
Gun control is based on the faulty notion that ordinary American citizens are too clumsy and ill-tempered to be trusted with weapons. Only through the blatant abrogation of explicit constitutional rights is gun control even possible. It must be enforced with such violations of individual rights as intrusive search and seizure. It most severely victimizes those who most need weapons for self-defense, such as blacks and women.
The various gun control proposals on today's agenda--including licensing, waiting periods, and bans on so-called Saturday night specials--are of little, if any, value as crime-fighting measures. Banning guns to reduce crime makes as much sense as banning alcohol to reduce drunk driving. Indeed, persuasive evidence shows that civilian gun ownership can be a powerful deterrent to crime. "

"Real-world experiences validate the sociologists' findings. In 1966 the police in Orlando, Florida, responded to a rape epidemic by embarking on a highly publicized program to train 2,500 women in firearm use. The next year rape fell by 88 percent in Orlando (the only major city to experience a decrease that year); burglary fell by 25 percent."

"Most police officers concur that gun control laws are ineffective. A 1986 questionnaire sent to every major police official in the country produced the following results: 97 percent believed that a firearms ownership ban would not reduce crime or keep criminals from using guns; 89 percent believed that gun control laws such as those in Chicago, Washington, D.C., and New York City had no effect on criminals; and 90 percent believed that if firearms ownership was banned, ordinary citizens would be more likely to be targets of armed violence."

"Guns do not turn ordinary citizens into murderers. Significantly, fewer than one gun owner in 3,000 commits homicide; and that one killer is far from a typical gun owner. Studies have found two-thirds to four-fifths of homicide offenders have prior arrest records, frequently for violent felonies."

David B. Kopel, formerly an assistant district attorney in Manhattan, is an attorney in Colorado.

Trust the People: The Case against Gun Control | David Kopel | Cato Institute: Policy Analysis

 

[Missourian]

gun control do in fact work.

States with Higher Gun Ownership and Weak Gun Laws Lead Nation in Gun Death

VPC - Press Release - (05/06/2009) - States with Higher Gun Ownership and Weak Gun Laws Lead Nation in Gun Death

States with the Five Highest Gun Death Rates
Rank State Gun Ownership Gun Deaths / 100,000
1 Louisiana 45.6 percent 19.58
2 Alabama 57.2 percent 16.99
3 Alaska 60.6 percent 16.38
3 Mississippi 54.3 percent 16.38
5 Nevada 31.5 percent 16.25

States with the Five Lowest Gun Death Rates

Rank State Gun Ownership Gun Deaths / 100,000
50 Hawaii 9.7 percent 2.58
49 Massachusetts 12.8 percent 3.28
48 Rhode Island 13.3 percent 4.43
47 Connecticut 16.2 percent 4.95
46 New York 18.1 percent 5.20

VPC Legislative Director Kristen Rand states, "More guns means more gun death and injury. Fewer guns means less gun death and injury. It's a simple equation."

The VPC defined states with "weak" gun laws as those that add little or nothing to federal restrictions and have permissive concealed carry laws allowing civilians to carry concealed handguns. States with "strong" gun laws were defined as those that add significant state regulation in addition to federal law, such as restricting access to particularly hazardous types of firearms (for example, assault weapons), setting minimum safety standards for firearms and/or requiring a permit to purchase a firearm, and have restrictive concealed carry laws.

Here's the truth on gun related homicide and gun control by state...this excludes suicide, which gun control isn't going to stop.

[FONT=arial,arial]These are the 13 states with the most pro-Second Amendment laws according to the Brady Center (Oklahoma being the most pro-Second Amendment in the nation) with total firearm murders from 2007 according to the FBI and population from the Census Bureau:[/FONT]​

----------State-----------------------------# of Firearm Homicides-----------Population​

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

• Arkansas ----------------------130 ------------2,810,872
• [FONT=arial,arial]Idaho -------------------------------------------------25 ---------------------1,466,465[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]New Mexico ---------------------------------------81 ---------------------1,954,599[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]South Dakota ---------------------------------------4 -----------------------781,919[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]West Virginia --------------------------------------37 --------------------1,818,470[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]Mississippi ---------------------------------------119 ---------------------2,910,540[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]Alaska -----------------------------------------------21 --------------------- 670,053[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]Louisiana ------------------------------------------455----------------------4,287,768[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]Missouri -------------------------------------------247 ---------------------5,842,713[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]North Dakota ----------------------------------------3 -----------------------635,867[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]Utah ---------------------------------------------------38 --------------------2,550,063[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]Kentucky ------------------------------------------131 --------------------4,206,074[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]Oklahoma -------------------------------- --------132 --------------------3,579,212[/FONT]

And the 13 strictest gun control states according to the Brady Center (California being the strictest in the nation) with total firearm murders from 2007 according to the FBI and population from the Census Bureau:

• California -----------------------1,605-----36,457,549
• New Jersey ----------------------260-------8,724,560
• Connecticut ----------------------57 -------3,504,809
• Massachusetts ------------------114 -------6,437,193
• Maryland ------------------------414------- 5,615,727
• New York ------------------------500 -----19,306,183
• Rhode Island -------------------- --9 ------ 1,067,610
• Hawaii -----------------------------3 -------1,285,498
• Illinois ---------------------------343* -----12,831,970
• Pennsylvania ---------------------527 ------12,440,621
• Michigan -------------------------444 ------10,095,643
• Delaware--------------------------22 ---------853,476
• North Carolina--------------------369 --------8,856,505

* incomplete data received by the FBI



The District of Columbia is not listed on the Brady Center ranking list but it did have the strictest gun control in the nation in 2007:

• District of Columbia-----------------181--------581,530

So here is the break down for firearm homicides per number of citizens per state plus the District of Columbia with Washington D.C. being the most dangerous place to live with 1 out of every 3,212 residents murdered by firearms and Hawaii being the safest with 1 out of every 428,499 residents murdered by firearms.



The number listed is the population divided by the total firearm homicides to render 1 homicide per (X) number of residents. (Red are Strict Gun Control, Blue are Pro-gun)

1. District of Columbia -----------1 / 3,212
2. Louisiana ---------------------1 / 9,423
3. Maryland ---------------------1 / 13,564
4. Arkansas ---------------------1 / 21,622
5. California ---------------------1 / 22,714
6. Michigan ---------------------1 / 22,737
7. Pennsylvania -----------------1 / 23,606
8. Missouri ----------------------1 / 23,654
9. North Carolina ----------------1 / 24,001
10. New Mexico ------------------1 / 24,130
11. Mississippi --------------------1 / 24,458
12. Oklahoma --------------------1 / 25,115
13. Alaska -----------------------1 / 31,907
14. Kentucky ---------------------1 / 32,107
15. New Jersey -------------------1 / 33,556
16. Illinois ------------------------1 / 37,410
17. New York ---------------------1 / 38,612
18. Delaware ---------------------1 / 38,794
19. West Virgina ------------------1 / 49,147
20. Massachusetts ----------------1 / 56,466
21. Idaho -------------------------1 / 58,658
22. Connecticut -------------------1 / 61,487
23. Utah --------------------------1 / 67,106
24. Rhode Island -------------------1 / 118,623
25. South Dakota ------------------1 / 195,479
26. North Dakota -------------------1 / 211,955
27. Hawaii -------------------------1 / 428,499

Bottom line, stricter firearm laws have no effect on firearm homicides.



That is why the Brady Center uses violent crime or firearm deaths instead of actual firearm homicides even though the firearm homicides are provided by the FBI online every year.






Link to FBI Stats Table 20 - Crime in the United States 2007

Link to Brady Center state rankings list http://www.stategunlaws.org/xshare/p...d_rankings.pdf

Population from the U.S. Census Bureau State and County QuickFacts

Wikipedia Firearm Homicides for the District of Columbia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Washington,_D.C.



http://www.usmessageboard.com/law-and-justice-system/94179-open-carry-firearms-our-2nd-amendment-right-10.html#post1794625

none of those links work

I wrote this post and did the research in 2009, I recycle.

I'll see if I can fix them.

 

[Skynet]

You are an idiot. You haven't even read up on the data behind the misleading stats you presented, or you would know that the majority of gun fatalities are suicides.


How Are Victims Killed?

Homicide: 11,624 / 39% of All Fatalities
Suicide: 16,750 / 57% of All Fatalities
Unintentional Death (Accidental): 649 / 2% of All Fatalities

National Firearm Injury and Death Statistics | Washington CeaseFire

so mentally ill people should be able to get fire arms easier? hmmmm go have that debate with the people who died at Virginia Tech, or Congress Woman Giffords.

Please provide a link to any comment I made which advocated making guns available to mentally ill people. I don't recall ever making such a comment.

so people who commit or want to suicide arent mentally ill?

 

[boedicca]

so mentally ill people should be able to get fire arms easier? hmmmm go have that debate with the people who died at Virginia Tech, or Congress Woman Giffords.

Please provide a link to any comment I made which advocated making guns available to mentally ill people. I don't recall ever making such a comment.

so people who commit or want to suicide arent mentally ill?

They may not be mentally ill at the time they purchase a gun. Are you advocating for the government to perform frequent psych evaluations on all gun owners?

There are also valid reasons for a sane person to commit suicide, such as facing excruciating pain from an incurable illness.

 

[Skynet]

"
Gun control is based on the faulty notion that ordinary American citizens are too clumsy and ill-tempered to be trusted with weapons. Only through the blatant abrogation of explicit constitutional rights is gun control even possible. It must be enforced with such violations of individual rights as intrusive search and seizure. It most severely victimizes those who most need weapons for self-defense, such as blacks and women.
The various gun control proposals on today's agenda--including licensing, waiting periods, and bans on so-called Saturday night specials--are of little, if any, value as crime-fighting measures. Banning guns to reduce crime makes as much sense as banning alcohol to reduce drunk driving. Indeed, persuasive evidence shows that civilian gun ownership can be a powerful deterrent to crime. "

"Real-world experiences validate the sociologists' findings. In 1966 the police in Orlando, Florida, responded to a rape epidemic by embarking on a highly publicized program to train 2,500 women in firearm use. The next year rape fell by 88 percent in Orlando (the only major city to experience a decrease that year); burglary fell by 25 percent."

"Most police officers concur that gun control laws are ineffective. A 1986 questionnaire sent to every major police official in the country produced the following results: 97 percent believed that a firearms ownership ban would not reduce crime or keep criminals from using guns; 89 percent believed that gun control laws such as those in Chicago, Washington, D.C., and New York City had no effect on criminals; and 90 percent believed that if firearms ownership was banned, ordinary citizens would be more likely to be targets of armed violence."

"Guns do not turn ordinary citizens into murderers. Significantly, fewer than one gun owner in 3,000 commits homicide; and that one killer is far from a typical gun owner. Studies have found two-thirds to four-fifths of homicide offenders have prior arrest records, frequently for violent felonies."

David B. Kopel, formerly an assistant district attorney in Manhattan, is an attorney in Colorado.

Trust the People: The Case against Gun Control | David Kopel | Cato Institute: Policy Analysis

your argument again in invalid. gun control laws are not meant to keep ordinary citizens from purchasing guns. they are meant to keep the guns out of the hands of violent criminals or make them traceable back to those who provide guns to violent criminals.

where have i state that we should take all guns off the street? or make the background check stricter? or limit the # of guns?

i have listed 4 things that i would like to see as gun control. can you debate those 4 things or keep claiming that i want to eliminate guns?

 

[Uncensored2008]

explain how gun control = people control?

i dont see how limiting your ability to automatic weapons, or high capacity clips, or requiring a background check on the sales of all gun both private and public is people control.

Back in the "good old days," before guns were invented, it took the better part of a lifetime to train a warrior. A master swordsman controlled the battle field. No one but other trained soldiers could challenge these warriors. They were of the nobility and served the Aristocracy and Monarchy, the peasants could rise up, but only to be slaughtered. They had no chance of spending years in weapons training, they could not fight against their rulers.

Then came guns. With a little bit of training, anyone - even a woman, could defend against the greatest swordsman in the land. Soon, the aristocracy fell, it could not be maintained against an armed populace who fought with equal prowess. In those lands where guns were owned by all, the government and rulership fell to the people - no one could rule an armed population.

You of the left seek a return to the rule of elites, you know that an armed populace will not allow that. You seek to disarm the people so they can be ruled under the heal of an aristocracy.

This is the goal of the left, to establish a totalitarian state.

 

[boedicca]

explain how gun control = people control?

i dont see how limiting your ability to automatic weapons, or high capacity clips, or requiring a background check on the sales of all gun both private and public is people control.

Back in the "good old days," before guns were invented, it took the better part of a lifetime to train a warrior. A master swordsman controlled the battle field. No one but other trained soldiers could challenge these warriors. They were of the nobility and served the Aristocracy and Monarchy, the peasants could rise up, but only to be slaughtered. They had no chance of spending years in weapons training, they could not fight against their rulers.

Then came guns. With a little bit of training, anyone - even a woman, could defend against the greatest swordsman in the land. Soon, the aristocracy fell, it could not be maintained against an armed populace who fought with equal prowess. In those lands where guns were owned by all, the government and rulership fell to the people - no one could rule an armed population.

You of the left seek a return to the rule of elites, you know that an armed populace will not allow that. You seek to disarm the people so they can be ruled under the heal of an aristocracy.

This is the goal of the left, to establish a totalitarian state.

QFT. That is the goal.

 

[Skynet]

Please provide a link to any comment I made which advocated making guns available to mentally ill people. I don't recall ever making such a comment.

so people who commit or want to suicide arent mentally ill?

They may not be mentally ill at the time they purchase a gun. Are you advocating for the government to perform frequent psych evaluations on all gun owners?

There are also valid reasons for a sane person to commit suicide, such as facing excruciating pain from an incurable illness.

so youre claming someone who want to die because they are dying is the same as someone who wants to go out in a blaze of glory as the same?

it thin euthanasia should be legal, but thats a separate debate. what about a person who has been bullied their whole and see no way out but death? should that not be treated? what about the Loughner who shot Giffords, should he have been able to legally buy a gun knowing his mental background? these are "law abiding" citizens, who legally got guns and either killed people or committed suicide.

you can only control one point of gun distribution and that is at the seller. so there should be rules place to make those who purchase guns are responsible enough to use that gun. maybe you should be required to take a fire arms safety test, just the same way you take a drivers test. would you disagree with that?

 

[AllieBaba]

"If your only source of information is the mainstream media, what you think you know may not be correct. Take the quiz below and test your knowledge.
1. Thousands of children die annually in gun accidents.
David Lampo is the publications director at the Cato Institute.




False. Gun accidents involving children are actually at record lows, although you wouldn't know it from listening to the mainstream media. In 1997, the last year for which data are available, only 142 children under 15 years of age died in gun accidents, and the total number of gun-related deaths for this age group was 642. More children die each year in accidents involving bikes, space heaters or drownings. The often repeated claim that 12 children per day die from gun violence includes "children" up to 20 years of age, the great majority of whom are young adult males who die in gang-related violence.
2. Gun shows are responsible for a large number of firearms falling into the hands of criminals.
False. Contrary to President Clinton's claims, there is no "gun show loophole." All commercial arms dealers at gun shows must run background checks, and the only people exempt from them are the small number of non-commercial sellers. According to the U.S. Department of Justice, at most 2 percent of guns used by criminals are purchased at gun shows, and most of those were purchased legally by people who passed background checks.
3. The tragedy at Columbine High School a year ago illustrates the deficiencies of current gun control laws.
False. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold violated close to 20 firearms laws in amassing their cache of weapons (not to mention the law against murder), so it seems rather dubious to argue that additional laws might have prevented this tragedy. The two shotguns and rifle used by Harris and Klebold were purchased by a girlfriend who would have passed a background check, and the TEC-9 handgun used by them was already illegal.
4. States that allow registered citizens to carry concealed weapons have lower crime rates than those that don't.
True. The 31 states that have "shall issue" laws allowing private citizens to carry concealed weapons have, on average, a 24 percent lower violent crime rate, a 19 percent lower murder rate and a 39 percent lower robbery rate than states that forbid concealed weapons. In fact, the nine states with the lowest violent crime rates are all right-to-carry states. Remarkably, guns are used for self-defense more than 2 million times a year, three to five times the estimated number of violent crimes committed with guns.
5. Waiting periods lower crime rates.
False. Numerous studies have been conducted on the effects of waiting periods, both before and after the federal Brady bill was passed in 1993. Those studies consistently show that there is no correlation between waiting periods and murder or robbery rates. Florida State University professor Gary Kleck analyzed data from every U.S. city with a population over 100,000 and found that waiting periods had no statistically significant effect. Even University of Maryland anti-gun researcher David McDowell found that "waiting periods have no influence on either gun homicides or gun suicides."
6. Lower murder rates in foreign countries prove that gun control works.
False. This is one of the favorite arguments of gun control proponents, and yet the facts show that there is simply no correlation between gun control laws and murder or suicide rates across a wide spectrum of nations and cultures. In Israel and Switzerland, for example, a license to possess guns is available on demand to every law-abiding adult, and guns are easily obtainable in both nations. Both countries also allow widespread carrying of concealed firearms, and yet, admits Dr. Arthur Kellerman, one of the foremost medical advocates of gun control, Switzerland and Israel "have rates of homicide that are low despite rates of home firearm ownership that are at least as high as those in the United States." A comparison of crime rates within Europe reveals no correlation between access to guns and crime.
The basic premise of the gun control movement, that easy access to guns causes higher crime, is contradicted by the facts, by history and by reason. "
Gun Control: Myths and Realities | David Lampo | Cato Institute: Daily Commentary

Cato was founded in 1977 by Edward H. Crane and Charles Koch,the billionaire co-owner of Koch Industries known for its financing of the Tea Party and various extreme right front groups. David Koch is currently on Cato's Board of Directors. "According to the Center for Public Integrity, between 1986 and 1993 the Koch family gave eleven million dollars to the [Cato] institute..


thanks for playing

They do, however, actually cite their sources. Unlike VPC.

VPC is an interesting little group...I have perused their site and oddly, they do not state who their supporters are that I can find. They are like a generic non-profit...based in DC...which is highly suspect.

Founded in 1988 by the Firearms Policy Project...which is also strangely anonymous.

Interesting.

 

[Skynet]

explain how gun control = people control?

i dont see how limiting your ability to automatic weapons, or high capacity clips, or requiring a background check on the sales of all gun both private and public is people control.

Back in the "good old days," before guns were invented, it took the better part of a lifetime to train a warrior. A master swordsman controlled the battle field. No one but other trained soldiers could challenge these warriors. They were of the nobility and served the Aristocracy and Monarchy, the peasants could rise up, but only to be slaughtered. They had no chance of spending years in weapons training, they could not fight against their rulers.

Then came guns. With a little bit of training, anyone - even a woman, could defend against the greatest swordsman in the land. Soon, the aristocracy fell, it could not be maintained against an armed populace who fought with equal prowess. In those lands where guns were owned by all, the government and rulership fell to the people - no one could rule an armed population.

You of the left seek a return to the rule of elites, you know that an armed populace will not allow that. You seek to disarm the people so they can be ruled under the heal of an aristocracy.

This is the goal of the left, to establish a totalitarian state.

now if you could only prove i said i wanted gun elimination....... oh wait, never said it!

 

[AllieBaba]

And you will note that the author of the information I just set down for you was a DA in Manhattan...and he used stats provided by widespread polling of law enforcement.

Retard.

 

[AllieBaba]

explain how gun control = people control?

i dont see how limiting your ability to automatic weapons, or high capacity clips, or requiring a background check on the sales of all gun both private and public is people control.

Back in the "good old days," before guns were invented, it took the better part of a lifetime to train a warrior. A master swordsman controlled the battle field. No one but other trained soldiers could challenge these warriors. They were of the nobility and served the Aristocracy and Monarchy, the peasants could rise up, but only to be slaughtered. They had no chance of spending years in weapons training, they could not fight against their rulers.

Then came guns. With a little bit of training, anyone - even a woman, could defend against the greatest swordsman in the land. Soon, the aristocracy fell, it could not be maintained against an armed populace who fought with equal prowess. In those lands where guns were owned by all, the government and rulership fell to the people - no one could rule an armed population.

You of the left seek a return to the rule of elites, you know that an armed populace will not allow that. You seek to disarm the people so they can be ruled under the heal of an aristocracy.

This is the goal of the left, to establish a totalitarian state.

now if you could only prove i said i wanted gun elimination....... oh wait, never said it!

I don't need to prove it, since I didn't claim you did.

Retard.