Mental Experiment of Strong AI and Consciousness Transfer

[orogenicman]

You missed the point entirely.

What is considered plausible is merely a matter of degree and that degree is dependent on what technical possibilities you have been exposed to and find plausible.

Which of the four cases do you find implausible?

No one is claiming that they can upload their minds to a computer...at least not yet.

If you lose half of your brain cells, even randomly, to radiation exposure, I can almost guarantee you aren't going to recover from it. The swelling all by itself is going to kill you.

Phineas Gage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Phineas P. Gage (1823–1860) was an American railroad construction foreman remembered for his improbable[C] survival of a rock-blasting accident in which a large iron rod was driven completely through his head, destroying much of his brain's left frontal lobe, and for that injury's reported effects on his personality and behavior over the remaining twelve years of his life—effects so profound that (for a time at least) friends saw him as "no longer Gage."

Long known as "the American Crowbar Case"—once termed "the case which more than all others is calculated to excite our wonder, impair the value of prognosis, and even to subvert our physiological doctrines"[2]—Phineas Gage influenced nineteenth-century discussion about the mind and brain, particularly debate on cerebral localization, and was perhaps the first case to suggest that damage to specific parts of the brain might affect personality.[1]:ch7-9[3]

Gage is a fixture in the curricula of neurology, psychology and related disciplines, and is frequently mentioned in books and academic papers; he even has a minor place in popular culture.[4] Despite this celebrity,[5] the body of established fact about Gage and his personality before or after his injury is small. This has allowed the psychology field to attribute "the fitting of almost any theory [desired] to the small number of facts we have"[1]:290. Through the intervening century, Gage has been cited in support of various contradictory theories of the brain. A survey of published accounts, including scientific ones, has found that they almost always severely distort Gage's behavioral changes, exaggerating the known facts when not directly contradicting them....

ABC's Bob Woodruff, who survived massive brain injury, encouraged by Gabrielle Giffords' progress - NY Daily News

While you may be right about the radiation damage likely killing the person, 1) it is a hypothetical scenario constructed for the example, not meant to be taken literally, and 2) people have survived such sever brain damage and our tech is improving daily, so it could be common for people to survive such things in the not too distant future.

Anyway, thank you for the civil and rational response.

Yeah, well, I have a close friend and my oldest niece, neither of which survived falls down stairs and receiving skull fractures. Even today's modern medicine could not save them. So I am nothing thinking too well about your hypothetical.

 

[JimBowie1958]

The possibility for a kind of near immortality though transfer of your mind functions into digital machines is one that appears to be becoming a goal of mankind.


We're going to need to understand how the human mind works far better than we do now.

Then of course there's the whole question of whether we are what we do and think or are we something greater than the sum of our actions and thoughts comes to the fore, too.

Some scientitst predict that we will be able to do this within the next 50 years.

I shudder to think what happens to mankind if that ever happens.

The science is of course cool but is mankind ready for such power?

Good questions, but do you have any equally interesting ideas of your own? tentative answers?

I think we will handle it well enough, though I do not believe we will have immortality only indefinite life spans instead. We will all eventually die.

 

[JimBowie1958]

If you lose half of your brain cells, even randomly, to radiation exposure, I can almost guarantee you aren't going to recover from it. The swelling all by itself is going to kill you.

Phineas Gage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Phineas P. Gage (1823–1860) was an American railroad construction foreman remembered for his improbable[C] survival of a rock-blasting accident in which a large iron rod was driven completely through his head, destroying much of his brain's left frontal lobe, and for that injury's reported effects on his personality and behavior over the remaining twelve years of his life—effects so profound that (for a time at least) friends saw him as "no longer Gage."

Long known as "the American Crowbar Case"—once termed "the case which more than all others is calculated to excite our wonder, impair the value of prognosis, and even to subvert our physiological doctrines"[2]—Phineas Gage influenced nineteenth-century discussion about the mind and brain, particularly debate on cerebral localization, and was perhaps the first case to suggest that damage to specific parts of the brain might affect personality.[1]:ch7-9[3]

Gage is a fixture in the curricula of neurology, psychology and related disciplines, and is frequently mentioned in books and academic papers; he even has a minor place in popular culture.[4] Despite this celebrity,[5] the body of established fact about Gage and his personality before or after his injury is small. This has allowed the psychology field to attribute "the fitting of almost any theory [desired] to the small number of facts we have"[1]:290. Through the intervening century, Gage has been cited in support of various contradictory theories of the brain. A survey of published accounts, including scientific ones, has found that they almost always severely distort Gage's behavioral changes, exaggerating the known facts when not directly contradicting them....

ABC's Bob Woodruff, who survived massive brain injury, encouraged by Gabrielle Giffords' progress - NY Daily News

While you may be right about the radiation damage likely killing the person, 1) it is a hypothetical scenario constructed for the example, not meant to be taken literally, and 2) people have survived such sever brain damage and our tech is improving daily, so it could be common for people to survive such things in the not too distant future.

Anyway, thank you for the civil and rational response.

Yeah, well, I have a close friend and my oldest niece, neither of which survived falls down stairs and receiving skull fractures. Even today's modern medicine could not save them. So I am nothing thinking too well about your hypothetical.

Just pointing out that it is possible to survive catastrophic brain injury, even a century ago. Not saying people always survive it.

 

[orogenicman]

Phineas Gage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

ABC's Bob Woodruff, who survived massive brain injury, encouraged by Gabrielle Giffords' progress - NY Daily News

While you may be right about the radiation damage likely killing the person, 1) it is a hypothetical scenario constructed for the example, not meant to be taken literally, and 2) people have survived such sever brain damage and our tech is improving daily, so it could be common for people to survive such things in the not too distant future.

Anyway, thank you for the civil and rational response.

Yeah, well, I have a close friend and my oldest niece, neither of which survived falls down stairs and receiving skull fractures. Even today's modern medicine could not save them. So I am nothing thinking too well about your hypothetical.

Just pointing out that it is possible to survive catastrophic brain injury, even a century ago. Not saying people always survive it.

It is very rare for people to survive those kinds of injuries, even today. But these kinds of injuries are irrelevant to the radiation damage to the brain, radiation that, as your example says, kills half the brain. I submit that any radiation strong enough to do that will inevitably lead to death not only from swelling, but because the radiation damage will be ongoing - once it gets in the system, you can't just filter it out. And it wouldn't only be the brain that is affected. The thyroid would likely be destroyed as would the pineal gland, all of the bacteria in your digestive tract, and likely the liver, lymphatic system, and pancreas.

 

[Politico]

I answered all your questions.

Then which case is fantasy? I don't see where you answered that.

Yes I did. As I said, someday tech may be available to help someone with a survivable brain injury to function better. Outside of that it is all fantasy. Can't be any clearer than that.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Yeah, well, I have a close friend and my oldest niece, neither of which survived falls down stairs and receiving skull fractures. Even today's modern medicine could not save them. So I am nothing thinking too well about your hypothetical.

Just pointing out that it is possible to survive catastrophic brain injury, even a century ago. Not saying people always survive it.

It is very rare for people to survive those kinds of injuries, even today. But these kinds of injuries are irrelevant to the radiation damage to the brain, radiation that, as your example says, kills half the brain. I submit that any radiation strong enough to do that will inevitably lead to death not only from swelling, but because the radiation damage will be ongoing - once it gets in the system, you can't just filter it out. And it wouldn't only be the brain that is affected. The thyroid would likely be destroyed as would the pineal gland, all of the bacteria in your digestive tract, and likely the liver, lymphatic system, and pancreas.

OK, I agree you are probably right, but the hypothetical is purely for demonstration, not a summary of what is more or less likely in the event.

BTW, my condolences on your friend and niece.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I answered all your questions.

Then which case is fantasy? I don't see where you answered that.

Yes I did. As I said, someday tech may be available to help someone with a survivable brain injury to function better. Outside of that it is all fantasy. Can't be any clearer than that.

OK, that is what you were referring to.

Here is the problem with understanding your statement, Politico.

Fantasy is a reference to the impossible. None of this described is impossible, at worst it is implausible. We don't yet know what tech will be able to do or not do over the next century.

NOVA | The Future of Brain Transplants

Quadriplegics often die prematurely of multiple-organ failure, White said. If surgeons could transfer the healthy body of a donor, such as a brain-dead individual or someone who has just died of a brain disease, to the healthy head of a quadriplegic, they could prolong that patient's life. Brain-dead patients already serve as multiple-organ donors, so a whole-body transplant is not as macabre as it might at first sound, White argued.

I tracked down Dr. White, who is now retired after 60 years as a brain surgeon but is still active as a writer and consultant. "I think this is an operation of the future," he told me on the phone. "But it is certainly out there, and under these circumstances [of quadriplegia], the concept of giving somebody who is important or quite young a new body is not beyond comprehension." And it should be discussed now, White feels, because it may well be coming. "We're still within just the first 100 years of transplantation," he said. "Who knows where we'll be after another 100 years?"....
What about a head transplant—or, if you prefer, a whole-body transplant? Doable? White thinks it is, even as he acknowledges that the financial costs would be prohibitive.
"I've had plenty of time to think about it, and the operation itself, although complex, really involves structures in and about the neck," White told me. "You're not cutting into the brain, and you're not cutting into the body, just severing everything at the neck. It's a very complex operation, because you have to make sure that the body's kept alive and the head's kept alive. But this has all been worked out in smaller animals."

Forty years ago, in studies that to some commentators smacked of Dr. Frankenstein, White and his team experimented with transplanting the newly detached head of a live rhesus monkey onto the body of another monkey that had just had its head removed. The longest-lived such hybrid, which reportedly showed unmistakable signs of consciousness, lasted eight days.
"With the significant improvements in surgical techniques and postoperative management since then," White wrote in a 1999 Scientific American article, "it is now possible to consider adapting the head-transplant technique to humans." White acknowledges that a quadriplegic who got a new body today would remain paralyzed below the neck, because successfully reconnecting the brain to the spinal column remains beyond our reach.

 

[Asclepias]

The possibility for a kind of near immortality though transfer of your mind functions into digital machines is one that appears to be becoming a goal of mankind.


We're going to need to understand how the human mind works far better than we do now.

Then of course there's the whole question of whether we are what we do and think or are we something greater than the sum of our actions and thoughts comes to the fore, too.

Some scientitst predict that we will be able to do this within the next 50 years.

I shudder to think what happens to mankind if that ever happens.

The science is of course cool but is mankind ready for such power?

I'm thinking that it is more likely we will be integrating computers into our minds rather than the other way around.

 

[JimBowie1958]

The possibility for a kind of near immortality though transfer of your mind functions into digital machines is one that appears to be becoming a goal of mankind.


We're going to need to understand how the human mind works far better than we do now.

Then of course there's the whole question of whether we are what we do and think or are we something greater than the sum of our actions and thoughts comes to the fore, too.

Some scientitst predict that we will be able to do this within the next 50 years.

I shudder to think what happens to mankind if that ever happens.

The science is of course cool but is mankind ready for such power?

I'm thinking that it is more likely we will be integrating computers into our minds rather than the other way around.

Both are plausible, but due to cost I think you are right that brain enhancing hardware is more likely.

 

[Asclepias]

The possibility for a kind of near immortality though transfer of your mind functions into digital machines is one that appears to be becoming a goal of mankind.


We're going to need to understand how the human mind works far better than we do now.

Then of course there's the whole question of whether we are what we do and think or are we something greater than the sum of our actions and thoughts comes to the fore, too.

Some scientitst predict that we will be able to do this within the next 50 years.

I shudder to think what happens to mankind if that ever happens.

The science is of course cool but is mankind ready for such power?

I'm thinking that it is more likely we will be integrating computers into our minds rather than the other way around.

Both are plausible, but due to cost I think you are right that brain enhancing hardware is more likely.

When you think about how the brain works....impulses of electricity...I'm positive it will go this route. The body already produces organic semiconductors in the form of melanin.


Melanin considered for bio-friendly electronics - UQ News - The University of Queensland, Australia

 

[JimBowie1958]

I'm thinking that it is more likely we will be integrating computers into our minds rather than the other way around.

Both are plausible, but due to cost I think you are right that brain enhancing hardware is more likely.

When you think about how the brain works....impulses of electricity...I'm positive it will go this route. The body already produces organic semiconductors in the form of melanin.


Melanin considered for bio-friendly electronics - UQ News - The University of Queensland, Australia

There is an interesting choice dynamic going on here. Why would we suppose that the development will go in only one route? I think there will be many/multiple routes, some rarely used till technology makes it cheap enough for the masses then it displaces the predominate reigning option.

Hardware will be the cheapest, easiest to develop and earliest used at first, but as we learn how to enhance the mind, and interface tech and biological enhancements better over time, I suspect a 'thinking cap' that interfaces with a biologically enhanced brain connecting it to a mind scanning internet with almost instant cloud response is where we will be by 2050-ish.

But that is just a Wild Ass Guess, nothing more really.