Maybe the SCOTUS is about to connect some more dots!

Amazing how some don’t understand why biological sex is important to the species. 🤦‍♂️

Where did I say biological sex wasn’t important to the species?

I didn’t.

I said the ability to have children was never a requirement for Civil Marriage. It hasn’t been. If you think fertility test should be part of the Civil Marriage requirements. Go for it, I disagree but you can try.

WW
 
Two men in a loving sexual relationship can most certainly be a family, as can two women.

Especially if they are siblings.

But you would probably forbid two loving brothers or two loving sisters from marrying one another and demanding the rest of the world accept that as "a family."

Am I wrong about that?
You have a very simplistic, concrete dumbed down understanding of how things work. It’s not about what anyone would forbid. It’s about how the law works and how we decide what is acceptable and what is not acceptable.

When the government sets limes on who can do what- whether it be same sex or sibling marriage. , certain forms of speech, gun position or anything else -those effected by those limitations have the right to contest them

It is then incumbent upon the government to demonstrate-at minimum- that there is a rational basis for those restrictions, In the case of something considered a fundamental right-such as marriage- the courts will then apply the standard of strict scrutiny meaning that the government must articulate clear and compelling societal interest for imposing that restriction.

In the case of gay marriage. The states seeking to ban it WERE UNABLE TO MEET THAT STANDARD and lost. If anyone wants to marry a sibling or a parent, or a dog , they are free to petition the courts or go through the legislative process to make that case for what they want to do.

You might want to consider the fact that there are different legal and societal issues associated with sibling marriage vs. gay marriage involving unrelated people . I am not making a judgement about sibling marriage one way or another - I m just saying that it is likely that the courts would come to a different conclusion with regards to the impact on society

Meanwhile stop wasting everyone’s time with your red herring nonsensical crap and try to deal with the topic honestly. Stop with these distracts and see if you can clearly state how gay marriage is bad for society of for anyone. I doubt that you can
 
Where did I say biological sex wasn’t important to the species?

I didn’t.

I said the ability to have children was never a requirement for Civil Marriage. It hasn’t been. If you think fertility test should be part of the Civil Marriage requirements. Go for it, I disagree but you can try.

WW
Yet, the requirement was that those that wish to marry were of a makeup of individuals that, under ideal conditions, could procreate.

There are zero conditions in which a same sex couple can.

I wonder why it was ONLY a Union between a Man and a Woman?

And if procreation has no place in the institution, why the prohibition as to numbers of people that can enter into such unions? And the prohibition to same sex closely related.

Are they not “similarly situated” to any other same sex couple?
 
You have a very simplistic, concrete dumbed down understanding of how things work. It’s not about what anyone would forbid. It’s about how the law works and how we decide what is acceptable and what is not acceptable.

When the government sets limes on who can do what- whether it be same sex or sibling marriage. , certain forms of speech, gun position or anything else -those effected by those limitations have the right to contest them

It is then incumbent upon the government to demonstrate-at minimum- that there is a rational basis for those restrictions, In the case of something considered a fundamental right-such as marriage- the courts will then apply the standard of strict scrutiny meaning that the government must articulate clear and compelling societal interest for imposing that restriction.

In the case of gay marriage. The states seeking to ban it WERE UNABLE TO MEET THAT STANDARD and lost. If anyone wants to marry a sibling or a parent, or a dog , they are free to petition the courts or go through the legislative process to make that case for what they want to do.

You might want to consider the fact that there are different legal and societal issues associated with sibling marriage vs. gay marriage involving unrelated people . I am not making a judgement about sibling marriage one way or another - I m just saying that it is likely that the courts would come to a different conclusion with regards to the impact on society

Meanwhile stop wasting everyone’s time with your red herring nonsensical crap and try to deal with the topic honestly. Stop with these distracts and see if you can clearly state how gay marriage is bad for society of for anyone. I doubt that you can
It’s overturned is inevitable based entirely on your writings above.

Gays were never restricted from marrying. That has been well established
 
It’s overturned is inevitable based entirely on your writings above.

Gays were never restricted from marrying. That has been well established
Bigoted moronic bovine excrement. Clearly you are not bright enough to understand my writing. Tell us, what is the compelling government interest in prohibiting same sex marriage?

They were not allowed to marry the person of their choice, unlike heterosexuals. That is discrimination. It takes a special kind of stupid to not understand that. More likely you're just playing a sick game.
 
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Two men in a loving sexual relationship can most certainly be a family, as can two women.

Especially if they are siblings.

But you would probably forbid two loving brothers or two loving sisters from marrying one another and demanding the rest of the world accept that as "a family."

Am I wrong about that?
Cat got your tongue , child?? Come out, come out where ever you are. You would not want people to think that you got shut down , would you?
 
Where did I say biological sex wasn’t important to the species?

I didn’t.

I said the ability to have children was never a requirement for Civil Marriage. It hasn’t been. If you think fertility test should be part of the Civil Marriage requirements. Go for it, I disagree but you can try.

WW
There are so many parralells in these issues.

Just as I wish that pro aborts would adnit / acknowledge the fact that an abortion kills a child, I wish that you would at least admit / acknowledge that the one man one woman model is the ideal model for the nucleus of a family, and by extension, society.

Then, at least, the rest of your concerns can be seen something other than a diversion.
 
There are so many parralells in these issues.

Just as I wish that pro aborts would adnit / acknowledge the fact that an abortion kills a child, I wish that you would at least admit / acknowledge that the one man one woman model is the ideal model for the nucleus of a family, and by extension, society.

Then, at least, the rest of your concerns can be seen something other than a diversion.

See, you start with a premise and then construct your arguments to fit. I disagree with your basic premise that "one man one woman model is the ideal model for the nucleus of a family". Oh, I agree with the premise, but the premise is not justification to discriminate based on sex.

No one is denying one man and one woman from being the focus for the nucleus of a family.

That is NOT the question as allowing Same-sex Civil Marriage takes absolutely nothing away from the one man one woman model. If you don't want to Civilly Marry someone of the same sex, then don't. But your preferred model is no justification for assigning the rights, responsibilities and benefits of Civil Marriage to child-less different-sex couple while denying those same rights, responsibilities and same-sex couple that either don't have children or denying them to same-sex couple with children. (And yes, there are same-sex couples raising children either from a prior relationship, surrogacy, or adoption in the same way different-sex couples do.)

WW
 
I wish that you would at least admit / acknowledge that the one man one woman model is the ideal model for the nucleus of a family, and by extension, society.
And I wish that you would just cut the bullshit and explain why.

I will add , that even if you're right, which you are not- why and how does that justify discrimination? Are you saying that only people who you approve of, who are the ideal model should be married?

If so , you would also have to be opposed to poor people getting married. How about under educated people or people with intellectual deficits ? Where do you draw the line?
 
gays were never restricted from marrying. That has been well established
When one makes the absurd statement that “gays already have equality “because they can, like anyone else, marry someone of the opposite sex, they are presuming that a gay person can decide to live as a straight person and have a fulfilling life with someone of the opposite sex. The other possibility is that you do not believe that fulfillment or love in marriage is a right or a reasonable expectation., at least not for gays. In any case they are, in effect dehumanizing gay people, portraying them as being devoid of emotion and t


  • In addition, they are reducing the institution of marriage to a loveless business arrangement while for the vast majority of people it is much more. It devalues marriage in a way, much more profoundly than feared by the anti-equality bigots, who bemoan the demise of traditional marriage simply because it is being expanded to include gays.

    Heterosexuals are able to choose a marriage partner based in part on sexual attraction and romantic interests. That is a choice, that gay people do not have, if denied legal marriage. Sure they can choose to forgo marriage in order to be with the person who they desire, but to do so would require that they forfeit the legal security, economic benefits and social status that goes with marriage That, is really not much of a choice at all and many courts have agreed.

    One of the best illustrations of that is the opinion of the 10th Circuit Court of appeals ruling to uphold the lower court which invalidated Utah’s ban on same sex marriage. Selected passages follow:
APPEAL FROM THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF UTAH (D.C. No. 2:13-CV-00217-RJS)

Kitchen V. Herbert


On cross motions for summary judgment, the district court ruled in favor of the plaintiffs. It concluded that “[a]ll citizens, regardless of their sexual identity, have a fundamental right to liberty, and this right protects an individual’s ability to marry and the intimate choices a person makes about marriage and family.” Kitchen v. Herbert, 961 F. Supp. 2d1181, 1204 (D. Utah 2013).


Two landmark decisions by the Supreme Court have undermined the notion that the question presented in Baker v. Nelson ( which was overturned by the Obergefell decision) is insubstantial. Baker was decided before the Supreme Court held that “intimate conduct with another person . . . can be but one element in a personal bond that is more enduring The liberty protected by the Constitution allows homosexual persons the right to make this choice.” Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U.S. 558, (pg. 17)

Windsor is the other case referred to above

DOMA “impose[d] a disadvantage, a separate status, and so a stigma upon all who enter into same-sex marriages . . . .” Id. The statute “undermine[d] both the public and private significance of state-sanctioned same-sex marriages” by telling “those couples, and all the world, that their otherwise valid marriages are unworthy of federal recognition.” Id (pg.21)

It is already apparent that the courts see marriage as much more than a impersonal business arrangement. Even prisoners have the right to marry:

The Turner Court’s description of the “important attributes of marriage [that] remain . . . after taking into account the limitations imposed by prison life,” 482 U.S. at 95, is relevant to the case at bar: First, inmate marriages, like others, are expressions of emotional support and public commitment…………. (pg 29)


We must reject appellants’ efforts to downplay the importance of the personal elements inherent in the institution of marriage, which they contend are “not the principal interests the State pursues by regulating marriage.”

We nonetheless agree with plaintiffs that in describing the liberty interest at stake, it is impermissible to focus on the identity or class-membership of the individual exercising the right. See De Leon, 2014 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 26236, at *58-59


A state “cannot define marriage in a way that denies its citizens the freedom of personal choice in deciding whom to marry, nor may it deny the same status and dignity to each citizen’s decision” (quotations omitted)). “Simply put, fundamental rights are fundamental rights. They are not defined in terms of who is entitled to exercise them.” Pg.37)
In summary, we hold that under the Due Process and Equal Protection Clauses of the United States Constitution, those who wish to marry a person of the same sex are entitled to exercise the same fundamental right as is recognized for persons who wish to marry a person of the opposite sex, and that Amendment 3 and similar statutory enactments do not withstand constitutional scrutiny.
 
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Bigoted moronic bovine excrement. Clearly you are not bright enough to understand my writing. Tell us, what is the compelling government interest in prohibiting same sex marriage?

They were not allowed to marry the person of their choice, unlike heterosexuals. That is discrimination. It takes a special kind of stupid to not understand that. More likely you're just playing a sick game.
Heterosexuals could never marry anyone they chose. That was a complicated negotiation between a man and a woman.

Homosexuals could negotiate, in the same way with a member of the opposite sex if they wished to marry

If you are unaware, many, many, many did just that.

Don’t want to do that, or find one to agree, then don’t get married. Not my, nor the government’s problem.
 
And I wish that you would just cut the bullshit and explain why.

I will add , that even if you're right, which you are not- why and how does that justify discrimination? Are you saying that only people who you approve of, who are the ideal model should be married?

If so , you would also have to be opposed to poor people getting married. How about under educated people or people with intellectual deficits ? Where do you draw the line?
Yet your side seems to revel in discrimination.

I’ll ask again, if procreation has nothing to do with marriage, how do you defend those closely related or those wishing to include more than two be subjected to such discrimination?
 
See, you start with a premise and then construct your arguments to fit. I disagree with your basic premise that "one man one woman model is the ideal model for the nucleus of a family". Oh, I agree with the premise, but the premise is not justification to discriminate based on sex.

No one is denying one man and one woman from being the focus for the nucleus of a family.

That is NOT the question as allowing Same-sex Civil Marriage takes absolutely nothing away from the one man one woman model. If you don't want to Civilly Marry someone of the same sex, then don't. But your preferred model is no justification for assigning the rights, responsibilities and benefits of Civil Marriage to child-less different-sex couple while denying those same rights, responsibilities and same-sex couple that either don't have children or denying them to same-sex couple with children. (And yes, there are same-sex couples raising children either from a prior relationship, surrogacy, or adoption in the same way different-sex couples do.)

WW
The onus is then on you to make the case that "non recognition" of same sex marriages (be they siblings or not) is tantamount to what you claim is "discrimination."

If you agree that the one man one woman model is the easiest, most obvious, and most natural model to form the basis of a family and by extension a society, to me that is enough. There is no reason to broaden the definition of (and requirements for) "marriage" beyond that. ESPECIALLY when other types of "civil unions" can be made to those who fall outside of those qualifications.

What you seem to be fighting for is complete equal recognition and acceptance for choices and behaviors that are far outside the norm for the NEEDS of a society.
 
See, you start with a premise and then construct your arguments to fit. I disagree with your basic premise that "one man one woman model is the ideal model for the nucleus of a family". Oh, I agree with the premise, but the premise is not justification to discriminate based on sex.

No one is denying one man and one woman from being the focus for the nucleus of a family.

That is NOT the question as allowing Same-sex Civil Marriage takes absolutely nothing away from the one man one woman model. If you don't want to Civilly Marry someone of the same sex, then don't. But your preferred model is no justification for assigning the rights, responsibilities and benefits of Civil Marriage to child-less different-sex couple while denying those same rights, responsibilities and same-sex couple that either don't have children or denying them to same-sex couple with children. (And yes, there are same-sex couples raising children either from a prior relationship, surrogacy, or adoption in the same way different-sex couples do.)

WW
The problem with Chuz is that they seem to be too much of a coward to state clearly and honestly what their problem is with same sex marriage. Rather they keep coming up with convoluted and logically fallacious bullshit to avoid the actual reasons. They went from states rights to sibling marriage to the “ideal model “ throwing dung at the wall hoping something sticks. I have my suspicions about them be will hold back for now
 
The problem with Chuz is that they seem to be too much of a coward to state clearly and honestly what their problem is with same sex marriage. Rather they keep coming up with convoluted and logically fallacious bullshit to avoid the actual reasons. They went from states rights to sibling marriage to the “ideal model “ throwing dung at the wall hoping something sticks. I have my suspicions about them be will hold back for now

Sibling same sex marriage does sound absurd.

Then again, same sex siblings seem to be similarly situated to same sex partners.

Do I agree siblings should Marry? Not at all.

But using the same argument gays used to gain the right for same sex marriage, seems discriminatory not to allow it………

And heaven forbid I be called a bigot 🤦‍♂️
 
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Nothing like being told you are less than a full person. We should make all gay people sit in the back of the bus if they cant get married. No point in just stopping at marriage. We can get them their own water fountains and bathrooms too. Shouldn’t be welcomed in every restaurant either.
I'll try this again for the 100th time:
1) Guys, it's OK to be gay. It is NOT OK to put your sneaky snake in places it wasn't intended to go. This causes bad bad consequences.
2) Guys, it's OK to have the gene for alcoholism. It is NOT OK to get stinking drunk.
3) Guys, it's OK to have been born with a predisposition to anger issues. It is NOT OK to harm others with your anger.
 
I'll try this again for the 100th time:
1) Guys, it's OK to be gay. It is NOT OK to put your sneaky snake in places it wasn't intended to go. This causes bad bad consequences.
2) Guys, it's OK to have the gene for alcoholism. It is NOT OK to get stinking drunk.
3) Guys, it's OK to have been born with a predisposition to anger issues. It is NOT OK to harm others with your anger.
Two other things come to mind as I read that.

1. KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) and how that applies to the government's recognition of marriage.

2. IIABDFI (If it aint broke? Don't fix it!)
 

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