Marwan Barghouti

[ogibillm]

Mandella was not a peaceful man. He invented the "burning necklace". Mandella was a terrorist. If you truly want to look for peaceful then look at Sadat.

Of course he was killed by islamic terrorists for his work.

lies

No cold hard facts that are historically collated. More blacks murdered by mandella while he was in prison than by the white's in charge.

How did Mandella manage all these murders while in prison? Do you have evidence showing he was responsible?

phoenall is not known for having a grip on either history or reality.

and if I'm being honest that post reads a little racist - as if apartheid was ok.

 

[Coyote]

So, if Barghouti is elected, if he manages to unite the Palestinian factions, should Israel take the opportunity to negotiate, will it?

Does Barghouti have a platform and what does Palestinian media say about him?

 

[ogibillm]

So, if Barghouti is elected, if he manages to unite the Palestinian factions, should Israel take the opportunity to negotiate, will it?

Does Barghouti have a platform and what does Palestinian media say about him?

given israel's new defense minister lives in an illegal west bank settlement it's tough to buy into the idea that netanyahu's government will do anything but provoke

 

[Phoenall]

Because of comments, made elsewhere in another thread....I thought this could make an interesting discussion.

Could Barghouti be the one that might be able to turn the Palestinians around from their perpetual impasse? Could he unite them under one voice? Would he be able to negotiate for a two-state solution?

From Israeli perspectives (rightwing and leftwing)

Meet the next Palestinian president

In the interim, Barghouti’s associates have nominated him as a candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize, with the help of Nobel laureates from Argentina and Tunisia, and are trying to brand him as a Palestinian Nelson Mandela. He is, of course, nothing of the sort. He was an integral supporter and orchestrator of the armed Second Intifada, including suicide terror attacks after his comrade Raed al-Karmi was eliminated in Tulkarm in early 2002.​

His new plan may declaredly focus on nonviolent protest, but he is emphatically more radical than Abbas — hence the trust Hamas and Islamic Jihad leaders place in him. His ostensible preference may be for a two-state solution arrived at via talks, but unlike Abbas, he believes that if talks do not work, the next recourse must be to take action — in other words, an intifada.​

In rare court appearance, Marwan Barghouti calls for a peace deal based on 1967 lines

However, in recent years Barghouti admitted that the Palestinians made a grave mistake by turning to terrorism. In countless interviews he said he supports "popular resistance" – that is, unarmed resistance.

Israelis will probably claim these are nothing more than tactical statements meant to expedite his release from prison. Whether this claim is right or not, Israel faces a greater problem in the near future: the Tanzim leader's intention to run for president, and likelihood he will get elected. According to all public opinion polls conducted in recent years, Barghouti is the only Fatah member who can easily beat any Hamas contender. In fact, the only scenario that can harm his chances to be elected is if Abbas decides to run again.​

From an outside perspective (BBC):

Profile: Marwan Barghouti - BBC News

The prospect of Barghouti's release has divided Israel, with some cabinet ministers arguing that as a reformist who could unite the rival Palestinian factions, he offers the best prospect for peace should Mr Abbas step down, and others saying someone convicted of five murders should never walk free.​

Ayman Odeh

“The thing I fear the most is that the Palestinians will grow so desperate about the impossibility of two states that they ask for one state,” Odeh said as we talked politics in the car. “Then the Israelis will say, ‘See, now they want Jaffa and Haifa!’ But all that will happen is that the two-state solution will be lost, and we will not gain a real one-state solution, either. It’s a one-state reality now, with parts of it being a military regime with an almost unimaginable gap socially.”

In Palestinian circles, the great unknown is who and what will follow Abbas, who has threatened repeatedly to resign. The usual candidates mentioned are flawed. Muhammad Dahlan, once a popular figure in Gaza, is widely considered corrupt. The head of intelligence, Majid Faraj, is unknown to most Palestinians. Salam Fayyad, the technocratic former Prime Minister, has great support in places like the International Monetary Fund but not on the streets of Jenin and Nablus. Finally, there is Marwan Barghouti, the most popular political figure in the West Bank. The only glitch is that Barghouti has been in prison since 2002, serving five life terms (plus forty years) for five counts of murder, including a role in the bombing of a restaurant in Tel Aviv. Not long after Odeh was elected to the Knesset, he visited Barghouti in prison. I asked him why.

“Barghouti is an interesting example of the different perspectives on the two sides,” he said. “I didn’t just visit him once. I visit him regularly. I see him as a real leader, the most loved Palestinian leader at the moment. But let’s be honest: Amir Peretz”—a former Israeli defense minister and deputy prime minister—“also visited him. Remember, even Nelson Mandela used arms. The worse crime is the occupation. I have no question that peaceful struggle is the way.”​

The Palestinians have serval possible "Mandellas"; what is really needed is a Zionist "FW De Klerk".

They have about 4 million terrorists if you count them. And not all Zionists are what you define as Zionists, that would be the same 4 million Palestinians. See how your Jew hatred is coming back and biting you now.

 

[Phoenall]

Freeman, et al,

In the last half century, the term "Occupied" has become politicized; separate and distinct from "Occupied" in the legal sense.

Freeman, et al,

Whether or not the Israeli Palestinians are "peaceful" or not is not really germain to the issue.

The zionazis settlers are the most "peaceful" creatures!

(QUESTION)

The question is, whether or not the Oslo Accords; --- granted Israel the Israel civil and security control over Area "C?"

Most Respectfully,
R

The West Bank is considered occupied by UN and all countries, settlements are illegal in this region.

(COMMENT)

The true meaning of the term is:

• "Article #42 1907 Hague Regulation:

Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army.
The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised.
​

This particular law does not speak to the Oslo Accords wherein:

1. For the purpose of this Agreement and until the completion of the first phase of the further redeployments:

a. "Area A" means the populated areas delineated by a red line and shaded in brown on attached map No. 1;

b. "Area B" means the populated areas delineated by a red line and shaded in yellow on attached map No. 1, and the built-up area of the hamlets listed in Appendix 6 to Annex I; and

c. "Area C" means areas of the West Bank outside Areas A and B, which, except for the issues that will be negotiated in the permanent status negotiations, will be gradually transferred to Palestinian jurisdiction in accordance with this Agreement.
​

Points to be considered and the purpose of the tone:

• Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) and those that provide material support to the activities of the HoAP, used the term "Occupied" as if it were a "criminal" accusation. The HoAP adopted this language tone in order to both justify and incite violence in the form of terrorism, jihadism, insurgent movements, and other asymmetric warfare models associated with a concentrated low intensity conflict.

• The HoAP recurring demand that Israel "end the occupation" by total evacuation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, lifting the anti-contraband and SALWs Security Screen, dismantlement of the Security Barrier as a deterrent to HoAP infiltration, open borders, etc ... etc ... etc ...
​

This directly connect to two other incitement issues and politicalization of the word "Occupied."

• Very often we see (even on this discussion group) the twisting of the such that "foreign occupied" is something even more sinister that the Isreali occupation of the West Bank from the Jordanians, and the Gaza Strip from the Egyptians. In 1967, Israel did not "occupy" and territory that was not under the control of the members of the Arab League (primarily Egypt and Jordan).

• And again, and we've seen this adopted right on line here in this discussion group, an active comparison of the "occupation in terms of the Warsaw Ghetto or an Open Air Concentration Camp. Clearly this language was intentionally designed to ties the Israelis to the WWII NAZI Regime. When, in fact, there were NAZI trained HoAP leaders from 1947 on unto there destruction. And again, this is done as part of the
delegitimization campaign against Israel exploited the language of "occupation" in order to invoke the recent history of a NAZI-occupied Europe during the WWII and drawing a link to Israeli practices in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
​

I think people are beginning to see through this.

Most Respectfully,
R

"Occupation", then and now...Perhaps people are beginning to see through RoccoR's Hasbara.

Only if you are an islamonazi stooge, then you can twist the evidence to put your own mind at ease.


By the way the pictures show the Nazi final solution and not an occupation, the others show the enactment of the Geneva conventions to control terrorist attacks and violence.

 

[Phoenall]

So, if Barghouti is elected, if he manages to unite the Palestinian factions, should Israel take the opportunity to negotiate, will it?

Does Barghouti have a platform and what does Palestinian media say about him?

There is no IF involved as Palestinian law says that there wont even be a vote. They need 80% of the P.A. to even call for the election and they will never achieve that number. They could have a coup in the west bank that would split Palestine 3 ways and bring about a 4 state solution hamas, fatah Barghouti and Israel. Would the UN allow that to happen and have 3 Palestinian representatives with observer status ?

 

[Phoenall]

So, if Barghouti is elected, if he manages to unite the Palestinian factions, should Israel take the opportunity to negotiate, will it?

Does Barghouti have a platform and what does Palestinian media say about him?

given israel's new defense minister lives in an illegal west bank settlement it's tough to buy into the idea that netanyahu's government will do anything but provoke

Again with the illegal west bank settlements, how can they be illegal when they are on Jewish owned land ?

It is the arab muslim settlements that are illegal being built on stolen land.


Remember the International laws of 1917, 1921, 1923, 1924 and 1949 that say the land is for the Jewish NATIONal home.

 

[Coyote]

So, if Barghouti is elected, if he manages to unite the Palestinian factions, should Israel take the opportunity to negotiate, will it?

Does Barghouti have a platform and what does Palestinian media say about him?

There is no IF involved as Palestinian law says that there wont even be a vote. They need 80% of the P.A. to even call for the election and they will never achieve that number. They could have a coup in the west bank that would split Palestine 3 ways and bring about a 4 state solution hamas, fatah Barghouti and Israel. Would the UN allow that to happen and have 3 Palestinian representatives with observer status ?

Couldn't public pressure force combined with international pressure force an election? Seems the Palestinian public is fed up with their leadership.

 

[P F Tinmore]

So, if Barghouti is elected, if he manages to unite the Palestinian factions, should Israel take the opportunity to negotiate, will it?

Does Barghouti have a platform and what does Palestinian media say about him?

There is no IF involved as Palestinian law says that there wont even be a vote. They need 80% of the P.A. to even call for the election and they will never achieve that number. They could have a coup in the west bank that would split Palestine 3 ways and bring about a 4 state solution hamas, fatah Barghouti and Israel. Would the UN allow that to happen and have 3 Palestinian representatives with observer status ?

Not true. The Palestinian Basic Law (constitution) lays out the procedure if Abbas dies or resigns.

Of course the US and Israel, in their usual mode of illegal external interference, will not allow that to happen.

 

[Phoenall]

So, if Barghouti is elected, if he manages to unite the Palestinian factions, should Israel take the opportunity to negotiate, will it?

Does Barghouti have a platform and what does Palestinian media say about him?

There is no IF involved as Palestinian law says that there wont even be a vote. They need 80% of the P.A. to even call for the election and they will never achieve that number. They could have a coup in the west bank that would split Palestine 3 ways and bring about a 4 state solution hamas, fatah Barghouti and Israel. Would the UN allow that to happen and have 3 Palestinian representatives with observer status ?

Couldn't public pressure force combined with international pressure force an election? Seems the Palestinian public is fed up with their leadership.

No to both as the first was tried and hamas went out in gaza and killed their own, fatah just said it was in the hands of hamas. As for international pressure what would you say if the world told you to vote for such and such because they don't like who you have elected ?

 

[Phoenall]

So, if Barghouti is elected, if he manages to unite the Palestinian factions, should Israel take the opportunity to negotiate, will it?

Does Barghouti have a platform and what does Palestinian media say about him?

There is no IF involved as Palestinian law says that there wont even be a vote. They need 80% of the P.A. to even call for the election and they will never achieve that number. They could have a coup in the west bank that would split Palestine 3 ways and bring about a 4 state solution hamas, fatah Barghouti and Israel. Would the UN allow that to happen and have 3 Palestinian representatives with observer status ?

Not true. The Palestinian Basic Law (constitution) lays out the procedure if Abbas dies or resigns.

Of course the US and Israel, in their usual mode of illegal external interference, will not allow that to happen.

It also lays out the procedure for what is needed to call any election, as you used it last year for that purpose. Or was that tinny 7 and not tinny 5

 

[P F Tinmore]

So, if Barghouti is elected, if he manages to unite the Palestinian factions, should Israel take the opportunity to negotiate, will it?

Does Barghouti have a platform and what does Palestinian media say about him?

Palestinian Prisoners' Document - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[P F Tinmore]

So, if Barghouti is elected, if he manages to unite the Palestinian factions, should Israel take the opportunity to negotiate, will it?

Does Barghouti have a platform and what does Palestinian media say about him?

There is no IF involved as Palestinian law says that there wont even be a vote. They need 80% of the P.A. to even call for the election and they will never achieve that number. They could have a coup in the west bank that would split Palestine 3 ways and bring about a 4 state solution hamas, fatah Barghouti and Israel. Would the UN allow that to happen and have 3 Palestinian representatives with observer status ?

Couldn't public pressure force combined with international pressure force an election? Seems the Palestinian public is fed up with their leadership.

It is the US and Israel who are blocking elections.

 

[Coyote]

Of course not but ...The main question was about the settlers: Are they civilians or not? According to the Geneva Accord they are not. Even according to the Israelis they are not.

This seems to me to be a dangerously immoral path to go down -- along the lines of "Well, of course you can't target civilians -- but Israelis/Jews aren't civilians."

What makes a civilian a civilian? It can't simply be that they are the "wrong" ethnicity living on the "wrong" side of an Armistice line.

​

Civilians or combatants?

Someone, of course, is now going to post the predictable pictures of Palestinian children...as if somehow trying to justify designating children as legitimate targets.

That is seriously sick.

Blaming the parents for the actions of terrorists (not freedom fighters) who deliberately choose to target children is not much better. There is no excuse for targeting children.

I never said there was.

I responded to Shusha's question, "What makes a civilian a civilian?" In the case of Zionist Israel, a very large proportion of the population are military reservists or active IDF members. The photographs pose the question, are they legitimate targets and if so, are they using their unarmed fellow citizens as human shields, a charge often made against Palestinians? RoccoR will doubtless give us all the "legal definition" according to whatever convention applies, so I won't waste my time on that.

I deliberately avoided posting pictures of children carrying and/or playing with weapons as I agree that such pictures are no justification at all to target children.

The two pictures at the end, however pose another quandary; who would be responsible for the death and injury to the children depicted should a Palestinian mortar or rocket hit the artillery position (Gaza) or the tank (Golan Heights)? The shooter or the parents/soldiers who allowed the children to be there in a conflict zone the first place?

So what about Zionist Britain or Zionist America then, or don't they count ?

See how your use of the term alters its context and turns it into hate speech, well known in the UK now and is seen as RACIST HATERED AND HATE SPEECH.


Not that long ago many of the population of Zionist Britain and Zionist America were reservists does this mean that we are not civilians.

The Geneva conventions spells it out as those people not in uniform, not carrying arms and not engaged in military actions as being civilians. So how are the IDF using their fellow Israeli's as human shields, do they erect illegal weapons launchers in civilian areas with lots of children. Of course you wont waste your time as it will show that you hate the Jews so much that you want any excuse to wipe them out.


Only your word that they are in gaza and the Golan heights, the troops are too relaxed for it to be a war zone.



Now get back on topic as the thread is dealing with Barghouti and his attempt at taking control

Yes, please do Phoenall.

 

[Coyote]

Shusha - your posts are usually well thought out and insightful - what do you think of Barghouti? Could he make a difference and unite the Palestinians into a more forward thinking group? Would Israel be willing to work with him?

(will the Palestinians even have an election...)

 

[Coyote]

So, if Barghouti is elected, if he manages to unite the Palestinian factions, should Israel take the opportunity to negotiate, will it?

Does Barghouti have a platform and what does Palestinian media say about him?

There is no IF involved as Palestinian law says that there wont even be a vote. They need 80% of the P.A. to even call for the election and they will never achieve that number. They could have a coup in the west bank that would split Palestine 3 ways and bring about a 4 state solution hamas, fatah Barghouti and Israel. Would the UN allow that to happen and have 3 Palestinian representatives with observer status ?

Couldn't public pressure force combined with international pressure force an election? Seems the Palestinian public is fed up with their leadership.

It is the US and Israel who are blocking elections.

How is that?

 

[Shusha]

Shusha - your posts are usually well thought out and insightful - what do you think of Barghouti? Could he make a difference and unite the Palestinians into a more forward thinking group? Would Israel be willing to work with him?

(will the Palestinians even have an election...)

I'm sorry, I'm totally derailing this thread, but the conversations about civilians and combatants is a really good one. Much more detailed and higher level than often happens. Maybe we could move my latest post above to a new thread? Is that allowed in the ROC?


As for Barghouti, I'd have to look into his ideology a bit more, but my gut tells me, my initial reaction tells me, he is not flexible enough in his thinking to make a go of it. He is pretty hard line, "The Palestinians will never accept anything less than the return of the refugees, 100% of the 1967 "borders" and Jerusalem".

 

[Coyote]

So, if Barghouti is elected, if he manages to unite the Palestinian factions, should Israel take the opportunity to negotiate, will it?

Does Barghouti have a platform and what does Palestinian media say about him?

Palestinian Prisoners' Document - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Interesting - I went to the link that showed the entire revised document JMCC / Documents.

It could serve as a starting point for negotiations but I see some problems...

For example:
1- The Palestinian people in the homeland and in the Diaspora seek and struggle to liberate their land and remove the settlements and evacuate the settlers and remove the apartheid and annexation and separation wall and to achieve their right to freedom, return and independence and to exercise their right to self-determination, including the right to establish their independent state with al-Quds al-Shareef as its capital on all territories occupied in 1967, and to secure the right of return for refugees to their homes and properties from which they were evicted and to compensate them and to liberate all prisoners and detainees without any discrimination and all of this is based on the historical right of our people on the land of our forefathers and based on the UN Charter and international law and legitimacy in a way that does not affect the rights of our people.

That seems more than a bit unjust. "Settlements" include towns that have been there for generations, established communities on legally bought land and even communitees that preceded the establishment of Israel.

It calls for expelling all of those people (no talk of compensation) and simultaneiously calling for the "Right of Return" for all refugees and their descendents into Israel and to compensate them.

Perhaps - under negotiation....something could be worked out that would:
- allow for landswaps for large established towns and settlement blocks
- allow homeowners a choice of remaining in Palestine, or uprooting with compensation
- allow for a certain number of refugees to return and for those who can not, compensation

 

[Coyote]

Shusha - your posts are usually well thought out and insightful - what do you think of Barghouti? Could he make a difference and unite the Palestinians into a more forward thinking group? Would Israel be willing to work with him?

(will the Palestinians even have an election...)

I'm sorry, I'm totally derailing this thread, but the conversations about civilians and combatants is a really good one. Much more detailed and higher level than often happens. Maybe we could move my latest post above to a new thread? Is that allowed in the ROC?


As for Barghouti, I'd have to look into his ideology a bit more, but my gut tells me, my initial reaction tells me, he is not flexible enough in his thinking to make a go of it. He is pretty hard line, "The Palestinians will never accept anything less than the return of the refugees, 100% of the 1967 "borders" and Jerusalem".

I can start a thread on civilians vs combatents (and yes, it's a good topic) - I'll do that and move some posts.

 

[P F Tinmore]

So, if Barghouti is elected, if he manages to unite the Palestinian factions, should Israel take the opportunity to negotiate, will it?

Does Barghouti have a platform and what does Palestinian media say about him?

There is no IF involved as Palestinian law says that there wont even be a vote. They need 80% of the P.A. to even call for the election and they will never achieve that number. They could have a coup in the west bank that would split Palestine 3 ways and bring about a 4 state solution hamas, fatah Barghouti and Israel. Would the UN allow that to happen and have 3 Palestinian representatives with observer status ?

Couldn't public pressure force combined with international pressure force an election? Seems the Palestinian public is fed up with their leadership.

It is the US and Israel who are blocking elections.

How is that?

WOW, that is quite an issue. Look at the US coup against the Palestinian Authority in 2007. I have started threads about this but got no response...well except for some name calling by the usual suspects.

BTW, I think Info live is an Israeli news source.