Malaysia Airlines Is To Blame. Not the Russians

[martybegan]

That plane would have also been sending commercial radio signals and a transponder. It is the responsiblity of the aggressor to verify it as hostile.

You haven't served in the military have you ? In WAR, there IS no responsibility. Each side fights to survive, by any means necessary. Don't want to get shot ? Stay the hell out of the way. FAR away.

What a joke how some people talk about war. Like it was a tennis match.

Was the area under current Ukrainian air attack? And yes, there IS responsibility in war, or should the Israelis just carpet bomb Gaza and be done with it?

its called the Geneva Convention, you ******* moron.

 

[protectionist]

Turning on your imaginary computerized automatic robotic weapons system would in and of itself be equal to pulling the trigger. The "Operator", a human being would have turned on the programmed computer system to shoot down anything that came in range without human source identification. Hence, the trigger was pulled when the human being "triggered" the system to be in the "power on" position.

All of this is the normal procedure that armies take to defend themselves from air attack. Doesn't matter if someone pushed a button of someone programmed a computer. Bottom line is, there is a WAR going on. ANd if don't want to have your head shot off, you stay the hell away from it. Got it ?

Well, if you want to get all attitudy about it. The nation providing and supplying the anti aircraft batteries, along with those operating it, including assisting in the operation have a legal obligation to pronounce the area of it's operation as a war zone and inform potential targets to stay away from the zone.
There has to be some protocol and internationally accepted legal way to address this exact situation, and there is. I explained it in the first paragraph.
Russia tried to avoid the international laws and agreements about providing this kind of weapon and got caught. They were supplying a heavy weapon that could be used to shoot down civilian airliners to one side of a so called civil war. By admitting that they are supplying the side of a non recognized side of a civil war they make it a war of Russia against Ukraine.
You are suggesting that we use a system of some kind of guessing and figurin' to determine safe flying zones. All because Russia decided to ignore international norms and accepted behavior in it's effort to annex more of it's neighboring state of Ukraine.

In WAR, there ARE no protocols, laws or agreements. You fight to survive and kill your enemy. If some idiots walk onto the battlefield, and get shot, it's because they were idiots. Period. This isn't a tennis game.

 

[Camp]

All of this is the normal procedure that armies take to defend themselves from air attack. Doesn't matter if someone pushed a button of someone programmed a computer. Bottom line is, there is a WAR going on. ANd if don't want to have your head shot off, you stay the hell away from it. Got it ?

Well, if you want to get all attitudy about it. The nation providing and supplying the anti aircraft batteries, along with those operating it, including assisting in the operation have a legal obligation to pronounce the area of it's operation as a war zone and inform potential targets to stay away from the zone.
There has to be some protocol and internationally accepted legal way to address this exact situation, and there is. I explained it in the first paragraph.
Russia tried to avoid the international laws and agreements about providing this kind of weapon and got caught. They were supplying a heavy weapon that could be used to shoot down civilian airliners to one side of a so called civil war. By admitting that they are supplying the side of a non recognized side of a civil war they make it a war of Russia against Ukraine.
You are suggesting that we use a system of some kind of guessing and figurin' to determine safe flying zones. All because Russia decided to ignore international norms and accepted behavior in it's effort to annex more of it's neighboring state of Ukraine.

The Ukraine has them deployed too. Did they notify anyone ? and why the hell is that ? The separatists don't even have an air force.

Ukraine is a recognized nation and has agreed to follow international protocol and laws. If they screw up they get caught, the international community has punishment and enforcement options at their disposal. Not so with some unrecognized rebel militia. That is why the supplier, Russia, is responsible.
And there is this, by not making a formal announcement that you might shoot at aircraft flying at commercial airliner altitude, you are implying that those aircraft need not be concerned that they will become targets.

 

[dilloduck]

Do you know what happened to the crew of the USS Vincennes after it made a mistake and shotdown an Iranian airliner ? They got medals .

Despite the mistakes made in the downing of the plane, the men of the Vincennes were awarded Combat Action Ribbons for completion of their tours in a combat zone. Lustig, the air-warfare coordinator, received the Navy Commendation Medal.[21] In 1990, The Washington Post listed Lustig's awards as one being for his entire tour from 1984 to 1988 and the other for his actions relating to the surface engagement with Iranian gunboats.[citation needed] In 1990, Rogers was awarded the Legion of Merit "for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as commanding officer ... from April 1987 to May 1989." The award was given for his service as the commanding officer of the Vincennes from April 1987 to May 1989, and the citation made no mention of the downing of Iran Air 655.[47]

Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[saveliberty]

That plane would have also been sending commercial radio signals and a transponder. It is the responsiblity of the aggressor to verify it as hostile.

You haven't served in the military have you ? In WAR, there IS no responsibility. Each side fights to survive, by any means necessary. Don't want to get shot ? Stay the hell out of the way. FAR away.

What a joke how some people talk about war. Like it was a tennis match.

I know enough that I might need that rocket against a real threat, so I'm going to make sure its hostile first. It was also mentioned the system has capabilities to ID aircraft by type. Most who have used your, in war there is no responsibility clause have found out different.

 

[Discombobulated]

All of this is the normal procedure that armies take to defend themselves from air attack. Doesn't matter if someone pushed a button of someone programmed a computer. Bottom line is, there is a WAR going on. ANd if don't want to have your head shot off, you stay the hell away from it. Got it ?

Well, if you want to get all attitudy about it. The nation providing and supplying the anti aircraft batteries, along with those operating it, including assisting in the operation have a legal obligation to pronounce the area of it's operation as a war zone and inform potential targets to stay away from the zone.
There has to be some protocol and internationally accepted legal way to address this exact situation, and there is. I explained it in the first paragraph.
Russia tried to avoid the international laws and agreements about providing this kind of weapon and got caught. They were supplying a heavy weapon that could be used to shoot down civilian airliners to one side of a so called civil war. By admitting that they are supplying the side of a non recognized side of a civil war they make it a war of Russia against Ukraine.
You are suggesting that we use a system of some kind of guessing and figurin' to determine safe flying zones. All because Russia decided to ignore international norms and accepted behavior in it's effort to annex more of it's neighboring state of Ukraine.

The Ukraine has them deployed too. Did they notify anyone ? and why the hell is that ? The separatists don't even have an air force.

Which separatists are those? You mean the Russian special forces posing as insurgents? Were you talking about those separatists?

 

[protectionist]

That plane would have also been sending commercial radio signals and a transponder. It is the responsiblity of the aggressor to verify it as hostile.

You haven't served in the military have you ? In WAR, there IS no responsibility. Each side fights to survive, by any means necessary. Don't want to get shot ? Stay the hell out of the way. FAR away.

What a joke how some people talk about war. Like it was a tennis match.

Was the area under current Ukrainian air attack? And yes, there IS responsibility in war, or should the Israelis just carpet bomb Gaza and be done with it?

its called the Geneva Convention, you ******* moron.

You shut your mouth, you ******* ASSHOLE. Did you serve one day in the military ? I served 5 years. And you want to quote the Geneva Convention to me ? I spent 5 years in the Army during the Vietnam War, when the Geneva Convention wasn't paid one ounce of attention to by the United States. You don't even know what I'm talking about, you dumbshit.

As for the Israelis, they practically ARE carpet bombing Gaza. And hey, you ever hear of Hiroshima ?

 

[Camp]

All of this is the normal procedure that armies take to defend themselves from air attack. Doesn't matter if someone pushed a button of someone programmed a computer. Bottom line is, there is a WAR going on. ANd if don't want to have your head shot off, you stay the hell away from it. Got it ?

Well, if you want to get all attitudy about it. The nation providing and supplying the anti aircraft batteries, along with those operating it, including assisting in the operation have a legal obligation to pronounce the area of it's operation as a war zone and inform potential targets to stay away from the zone.
There has to be some protocol and internationally accepted legal way to address this exact situation, and there is. I explained it in the first paragraph.
Russia tried to avoid the international laws and agreements about providing this kind of weapon and got caught. They were supplying a heavy weapon that could be used to shoot down civilian airliners to one side of a so called civil war. By admitting that they are supplying the side of a non recognized side of a civil war they make it a war of Russia against Ukraine.
You are suggesting that we use a system of some kind of guessing and figurin' to determine safe flying zones. All because Russia decided to ignore international norms and accepted behavior in it's effort to annex more of it's neighboring state of Ukraine.

In WAR, there ARE no protocols, laws or agreements. You fight to survive and kill your enemy. If some idiots walk onto the battlefield, and get shot, it's because they were idiots. Period. This isn't a tennis game.

There was not a battlefield at 33,000 feet over Ukraine. Somebody just arbitrarily decided that without giving notice to the people who were using that space.

BTW, there are protocols, laws and agreements. War criminals ignore them.

 

[protectionist]

Well, if you want to get all attitudy about it. The nation providing and supplying the anti aircraft batteries, along with those operating it, including assisting in the operation have a legal obligation to pronounce the area of it's operation as a war zone and inform potential targets to stay away from the zone.
There has to be some protocol and internationally accepted legal way to address this exact situation, and there is. I explained it in the first paragraph.
Russia tried to avoid the international laws and agreements about providing this kind of weapon and got caught. They were supplying a heavy weapon that could be used to shoot down civilian airliners to one side of a so called civil war. By admitting that they are supplying the side of a non recognized side of a civil war they make it a war of Russia against Ukraine.
You are suggesting that we use a system of some kind of guessing and figurin' to determine safe flying zones. All because Russia decided to ignore international norms and accepted behavior in it's effort to annex more of it's neighboring state of Ukraine.

The Ukraine has them deployed too. Did they notify anyone ? and why the hell is that ? The separatists don't even have an air force.

Ukraine is a recognized nation and has agreed to follow international protocol and laws. If they screw up they get caught, the international community has punishment and enforcement options at their disposal. Not so with some unrecognized rebel militia. That is why the supplier, Russia, is responsible.
And there is this, by not making a formal announcement that you might shoot at aircraft flying at commercial airliner altitude, you are implying that those aircraft need not be concerned that they will become targets.

He thinks this is a tennis match. Pheeeeww! (high-pitched whistle)

 

[Discombobulated]

Well, if you want to get all attitudy about it. The nation providing and supplying the anti aircraft batteries, along with those operating it, including assisting in the operation have a legal obligation to pronounce the area of it's operation as a war zone and inform potential targets to stay away from the zone.
There has to be some protocol and internationally accepted legal way to address this exact situation, and there is. I explained it in the first paragraph.
Russia tried to avoid the international laws and agreements about providing this kind of weapon and got caught. They were supplying a heavy weapon that could be used to shoot down civilian airliners to one side of a so called civil war. By admitting that they are supplying the side of a non recognized side of a civil war they make it a war of Russia against Ukraine.
You are suggesting that we use a system of some kind of guessing and figurin' to determine safe flying zones. All because Russia decided to ignore international norms and accepted behavior in it's effort to annex more of it's neighboring state of Ukraine.

In WAR, there ARE no protocols, laws or agreements. You fight to survive and kill your enemy. If some idiots walk onto the battlefield, and get shot, it's because they were idiots. Period. This isn't a tennis game.

There was not a battlefield at 33,000 feet over Ukraine. Somebody just arbitrarily decided that without giving notice to the people who were using that space.

BTW, there are protocols, laws and agreements. War criminals ignore them.

Some junior officer on the spot made a command decision. He fucked up. End of story.

 

[saveliberty]

Do you know what happened to the crew of the USS Vincennes after it made a mistake and shotdown an Iranian airliner ? They got medals .

Despite the mistakes made in the downing of the plane, the men of the Vincennes were awarded Combat Action Ribbons for completion of their tours in a combat zone. Lustig, the air-warfare coordinator, received the Navy Commendation Medal.[21] In 1990, The Washington Post listed Lustig's awards as one being for his entire tour from 1984 to 1988 and the other for his actions relating to the surface engagement with Iranian gunboats.[citation needed] In 1990, Rogers was awarded the Legion of Merit "for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as commanding officer ... from April 1987 to May 1989." The award was given for his service as the commanding officer of the Vincennes from April 1987 to May 1989, and the citation made no mention of the downing of Iran Air 655.[47]

Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gee, no one got a medal for shooting it down now did they? Was the technology available as it was in this situation? I'm asking, I don't know. Twenty-five years ago, so there is a good chance the answer is no.

 

[protectionist]

Well, if you want to get all attitudy about it. The nation providing and supplying the anti aircraft batteries, along with those operating it, including assisting in the operation have a legal obligation to pronounce the area of it's operation as a war zone and inform potential targets to stay away from the zone.
There has to be some protocol and internationally accepted legal way to address this exact situation, and there is. I explained it in the first paragraph.
Russia tried to avoid the international laws and agreements about providing this kind of weapon and got caught. They were supplying a heavy weapon that could be used to shoot down civilian airliners to one side of a so called civil war. By admitting that they are supplying the side of a non recognized side of a civil war they make it a war of Russia against Ukraine.
You are suggesting that we use a system of some kind of guessing and figurin' to determine safe flying zones. All because Russia decided to ignore international norms and accepted behavior in it's effort to annex more of it's neighboring state of Ukraine.

In WAR, there ARE no protocols, laws or agreements. You fight to survive and kill your enemy. If some idiots walk onto the battlefield, and get shot, it's because they were idiots. Period. This isn't a tennis game.

There was not a battlefield at 33,000 feet over Ukraine. Somebody just arbitrarily decided that without giving notice to the people who were using that space.

BTW, there are protocols, laws and agreements. War criminals ignore them.

You don't understand WAR. At all.

 

[dilloduck]

Do you know what happened to the crew of the USS Vincennes after it made a mistake and shotdown an Iranian airliner ? They got medals .

Despite the mistakes made in the downing of the plane, the men of the Vincennes were awarded Combat Action Ribbons for completion of their tours in a combat zone. Lustig, the air-warfare coordinator, received the Navy Commendation Medal.[21] In 1990, The Washington Post listed Lustig's awards as one being for his entire tour from 1984 to 1988 and the other for his actions relating to the surface engagement with Iranian gunboats.[citation needed] In 1990, Rogers was awarded the Legion of Merit "for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as commanding officer ... from April 1987 to May 1989." The award was given for his service as the commanding officer of the Vincennes from April 1987 to May 1989, and the citation made no mention of the downing of Iran Air 655.[47]

Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gee, no one got a medal for shooting it down now did they? Was the technology available as it was in this situation? I'm asking, I don't know. Twenty-five years ago, so there is a good chance the answer is no.

Nor were they punished.

Read the whole article--the tech was available and the US paid something like a 60 billion dollar fine.

 

[protectionist]

In WAR, there ARE no protocols, laws or agreements. You fight to survive and kill your enemy. If some idiots walk onto the battlefield, and get shot, it's because they were idiots. Period. This isn't a tennis game.

There was not a battlefield at 33,000 feet over Ukraine. Somebody just arbitrarily decided that without giving notice to the people who were using that space.

BTW, there are protocols, laws and agreements. War criminals ignore them.

Some junior officer on the spot made a command decision. He fucked up. End of story.

How the hell do you know that ? YOU DON'T. The missle may have fired automatically, without any human stimulus. How many times do I have to say this. Sheeeeshh!!

 

[Camp]

Do you know what happened to the crew of the USS Vincennes after it made a mistake and shotdown an Iranian airliner ? They got medals .

Despite the mistakes made in the downing of the plane, the men of the Vincennes were awarded Combat Action Ribbons for completion of their tours in a combat zone. Lustig, the air-warfare coordinator, received the Navy Commendation Medal.[21] In 1990, The Washington Post listed Lustig's awards as one being for his entire tour from 1984 to 1988 and the other for his actions relating to the surface engagement with Iranian gunboats.[citation needed] In 1990, Rogers was awarded the Legion of Merit "for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as commanding officer ... from April 1987 to May 1989." The award was given for his service as the commanding officer of the Vincennes from April 1987 to May 1989, and the citation made no mention of the downing of Iran Air 655.[47]

Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ya, that sucked. Omar used that and the death of his daughter as justification for Lockerbie. What goes around comes around.

 

[saveliberty]

Silly me, I'm trying to show who should be responsible to an irresponsible person.

 

[dilloduck]

Do you know what happened to the crew of the USS Vincennes after it made a mistake and shotdown an Iranian airliner ? They got medals .

Despite the mistakes made in the downing of the plane, the men of the Vincennes were awarded Combat Action Ribbons for completion of their tours in a combat zone. Lustig, the air-warfare coordinator, received the Navy Commendation Medal.[21] In 1990, The Washington Post listed Lustig's awards as one being for his entire tour from 1984 to 1988 and the other for his actions relating to the surface engagement with Iranian gunboats.[citation needed] In 1990, Rogers was awarded the Legion of Merit "for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as commanding officer ... from April 1987 to May 1989." The award was given for his service as the commanding officer of the Vincennes from April 1987 to May 1989, and the citation made no mention of the downing of Iran Air 655.[47]

Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ya, that sucked. Omar used that and the death of his daughter as justification for Lockerbie. What goes around comes around.

I don't think that will work if Obama is looking for a good reason to blow up a Russian airliner in retaliation but he can give it a shot.

 

[SillyWabbit]

The bottom line is very simple: planes get shot down flying over areas such as this, don't fly over it unless you're willing to kill everyone onboard.
This doesn't absolve those responsible for firing the weapon or those who issued the order to do so, but the airline should have used same basic common sense.

 

[dilloduck]

Silly me, I'm trying to show who should be responsible to an irresponsible person.

There are all sorts of levels of responsibilities that brought these events together in a tragedy. An argument good can be made for all of them.

 

[Camp]

There was not a battlefield at 33,000 feet over Ukraine. Somebody just arbitrarily decided that without giving notice to the people who were using that space.

BTW, there are protocols, laws and agreements. War criminals ignore them.

Some junior officer on the spot made a command decision. He fucked up. End of story.

How the hell do you know that ? YOU DON'T. The missle may have fired automatically, without any human stimulus. How many times do I have to say this. Sheeeeshh!!

You will have to make it forever. First, it is not true. The Buk is not used in an automatic mode in the way in which you interpret an "automatic mode" as you suggest. You are confusing target acquisition with target engagement and the linking of the two procedures. Second, you keep refusing to understand the concept that putting a computerized system on automatic engagement mode is the same as pulling the trigger. It is in fact pulling the trigger.