Let's re-visit Kent State!

[Fizz]

There is absolutely ZERO evidence that Koresch was molesting children. In fact the ONLY people that made that claim were disgruntled x members.

i dont know about you but i know that if my child was being molested that would quickly turn me into a disgruntled ex-member too.

doesnt excuse burning the place down though.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

There is absolutely ZERO evidence that Koresch was molesting children. In fact the ONLY people that made that claim were disgruntled x members.

i dont know about you but i know that if my child was being molested that would quickly turn me into a disgruntled ex-member too.

doesnt excuse burning the place down though.

You are missing the point. NONE of them alleged he molested their children UNTIL the FBI contacted them after the siege began. NOT a single one of them made such a claim to the local sheriff or the local Family Services. The Sheriff had unlimited access as his position warranted to arrest or talk to Koresch or any of his followers. he was out to the compound on more then one occasion and he had Koresch down to his Sheriffs office on more then one occasion.

The FBI talked these people into making these bogus claims to enhance their own appearance.

The reality is the ATF fabricated an excuse to raid the Compound. The Compound had several LICENSED FFL dealers residing there. These people purchased the firearms legally. What the ATF did is cancel their licenses just before the raid with out informing them. NONE of the weapons were illegally purchased. And there were no fully automatic weapons displayed after the fact by the FBI. None were fired to prove they were modified. A fire does not burn up an automatic sear in a firearm.

The other claim was they had grenades. Again a falsification. They LEGALLY purchased Grenade shells ( casings), anyone could do it. They LEGALLY purchased black powder, again anyone could do it. NOT a single assembled grenade was found in the compound or anywhere anywhere near the compound. NONE were used by the cult. NO one ever saw anyone make or use one at any time. They did not have fuses made to assemble the grenades. NONE were found, none were seen.

As for firing, the original video of the raid clearly shows 3 agents enter a window on the second floor followed almost immediately by a 4th agent on the roof firing full auto into the window they just entered. The door to the building was recovered intact. There were NO bullet holes going OUT the door. ALL the holes were made by bullets fired from the parking lot. NOT a single vehicle in the lot had any holes on the sides facing the compound only bullet holes from the side where the ATF opened fire.

During the siege no FBI agent was ever fired on. No helicopter flying over the compound was fired on. No member of the cult attempted to leave the compound.

The FBI ADMITS they knew gasoline was staged about the wooden buildings in case of a final assault. YET they used a tear gas firing Tank to ram through the wall and THEY fired tear gas as well through windows of the buildings.

No civilian was ever in danger from the Cult, no member of the FBI siege team was in danger from the Cult. There was absolutely NO reason to launch an assault.

 

[Diuretic]

I remember reading contemporary reports about the shootings, I can't recall the details and I don't want to be an accidental revisionist but one phrase sort of comes to mind and it was something like, "a bunch of frightened kids shooting a bunch of frightened kids." Not in those words but similar.

But I could be wrong, memory is reconstructive.

 

[Si modo]

I remember reading contemporary reports about the shootings, I can't recall the details and I don't want to be an accidental revisionist but one phrase sort of comes to mind and it was something like, "a bunch of frightened kids shooting a bunch of frightened kids." Not in those words but similar.

But I could be wrong, memory is reconstructive.

That's pretty much my understanding of it, too.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I remember reading contemporary reports about the shootings, I can't recall the details and I don't want to be an accidental revisionist but one phrase sort of comes to mind and it was something like, "a bunch of frightened kids shooting a bunch of frightened kids." Not in those words but similar.

But I could be wrong, memory is reconstructive.

Well except for the whole "throwing shit" at the ARMED Guardsmen. Never EVER figured out what dumb ass thinks throwing rocks and bottles at men carrying loaded rifles is a good idea.

 

[editec]

Kent state was a tragedy for the people AND the National Guard.

 

[Si modo]

I remember reading contemporary reports about the shootings, I can't recall the details and I don't want to be an accidental revisionist but one phrase sort of comes to mind and it was something like, "a bunch of frightened kids shooting a bunch of frightened kids." Not in those words but similar.

But I could be wrong, memory is reconstructive.

Well except for the whole "throwing shit" at the ARMED Guardsmen. Never EVER figured out what dumb ass thinks throwing rocks and bottles at men carrying loaded rifles is a good idea.

I'm trying to look at it by forgetting any politics associated with the incidents. The students were way out of line with their violence and property destruction over the days. Something had to be done about that. There is little reason for a group practicing their Constitutional right to protest to get violent and to break the laws.

Police tried to control that and failed, so the NG was called in to assist. There would have been no NG present if the protesters had been lawful. There is significant contribution from them to the escalation of the incident.

On the other hand, the NG had no business using deadly force to address rocks being thrown at them. There is that contribution to the tragedy, too.

Neither side in this matter is without blame.

That's my Monday morning quaterback report.

 

[Ravi]

Two of the students killed were guilty of nothing but walking from one class to the next.

Fuck you, Allie.

 

[Ravi]

I remember reading contemporary reports about the shootings, I can't recall the details and I don't want to be an accidental revisionist but one phrase sort of comes to mind and it was something like, "a bunch of frightened kids shooting a bunch of frightened kids." Not in those words but similar.

But I could be wrong, memory is reconstructive.

You are correct. A very sad day all around.

 

[editec]

"a bunch of frightened kids shooting a bunch of frightened kids."

That about sums it up.

That national guard unit had just come off prison riot duty.

They were skiddish already.

I feel almost as sorry for the guys who did the shooting as I do their victims.

 

[JW Frogen]

Kent State is known for three things:

1. Kent State Massacre

2. Alcohol

3. Alcohol

I majored in 2 and 3 and only minored in 1, usually on myself.

 

[rightwinger]

Let's re-visit the Kent State victims...

Here's the 'hippies' that were exterminated by the state...

Allison B. Krause (April 23, 1951 - May 4, 1970) was an honors student at Kent State University, Ohio, when she was shot and killed by the Ohio National Guard in the Kent State shootings, while protesting the invasion of Cambodia and the presence of the National Guard on the Kent State campus. Her father had been a Holocaust survivor from Germany.

Sandra Lee Scheuer (pronounced /ˈʃɔɪ.ər/; August 11, 1949 - May 4, 1970) was a student at Kent State University in Kent, Ohio, when she was killed by Ohio National Guardsmen in the Kent State shootings.

Scheuer, born in Youngstown, Ohio, was an honors student in speech therapy. She was a graduate of Boardman High School. She did not take part in the Vietnam War protests that preceded the shootings.

Jeffrey Glenn Miller (March 28, 1950 – May 4, 1970) was a student at Kent State University in Kent, Ohio when he was shot and killed by Ohio National Guardsmen in the Kent State shootings. Shortly before his death, in May 1970, Miller had transferred to Kent State from Michigan State University. While at Michigan State, Miller pledged Phi Kappa Tau fraternity where his older brother had been a member.

William Knox Schroeder (July 20, 1950 – May 4, 1970) was a student at Kent State University, Ohio, when he was killed by Ohio National Guardsmen in the Kent State shootings.

Schroeder was born and raised in Cincinnati, Ohio. He moved with his family to Lorain, Ohio when he was in elementary school and graduated from Lorain High School where he was an honors student. Already an Eagle Scout, at age 17 Schroeder applied for the Army Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) Scholarship. He received the Academic Achievement award from both the Colorado School of Mines and from Kent State University, where he was a psychology student. He also earned the Association of the United States Army award for excellence in History.

[/QUOTE]

The current historical description tells of innocent students involved in peaceful protest. In fact they had burned the ROTC building to the ground a few days earlier. The Governor was under tremendous pressure to get the situation under control.
On the day of the shooting, the student protesters broke down a fence, flanked and surrounded the National Gurard troops. The poorly trained troops panicked and fired on the crowd. The students who were killed were innocent victims, but were part of a larger crowd that was far from innocent

 

[Truthmatters]

I remember reading contemporary reports about the shootings, I can't recall the details and I don't want to be an accidental revisionist but one phrase sort of comes to mind and it was something like, "a bunch of frightened kids shooting a bunch of frightened kids." Not in those words but similar.

But I could be wrong, memory is reconstructive.

Bingo, it was the fault of the IDIOT who desided to put armed military at a college.

 

[Si modo]

I remember reading contemporary reports about the shootings, I can't recall the details and I don't want to be an accidental revisionist but one phrase sort of comes to mind and it was something like, "a bunch of frightened kids shooting a bunch of frightened kids." Not in those words but similar.

But I could be wrong, memory is reconstructive.

Bingo, it was the fault of the IDIOT who desided to put armed military at a college.

Bingo?

 

[Truthmatters]

Never played the game huh?

 

[rightwinger]

I remember reading contemporary reports about the shootings, I can't recall the details and I don't want to be an accidental revisionist but one phrase sort of comes to mind and it was something like, "a bunch of frightened kids shooting a bunch of frightened kids." Not in those words but similar.

But I could be wrong, memory is reconstructive.

Bingo, it was the fault of the IDIOT who desided to put armed military at a college.

The students were considered to be violent. They had already burned down a campus building and were destroying other property. They were also pelting campus police with rocks and bottles.
Keep in mind the timeframe of the 60's. The establishment was terrified of the "hippies" taking over and rioting. This was the time of Charlie Manson. These were not peaceful times. The pressure on the Governor to do something was tremendous.
The National Guard over-reacted and should not have fired. But they were faced with a situation that they thought was under control and became threatening when the students surged and surrounded and trapped them.

The Guard did not react well, but the students brought alot of this on themselves

 

[RodISHI]

Some things stay the same, some things change. Kent does not look like the place I would choose today to go to college anymore than I would have chose it back in the 70's.

Local College Student Dies After Brutal Attack - WJW

The Lewiston Daily Sun - Google News Archive Search


Lawrence Journal-World - Google News Archive Search


The Free Lance-Star - Google News Archive Search

 

[Modbert]

The Guard did not react well, but the students brought alot of this on themselves

Correction, some on the students may or may not have brought alot of this on themselves.

Sandra Scheuer and William Knox Schroeder did not deserve their fates AT ALL.

 

[xotoxi]

It was a manufactured charge designed to make the FBI seem more reasonable. NOW you explain how murdering all the children in the compound SAVED them? Because THAT is what the FBI did.

The FBI ADMITS they KNEW the buildings had gasoline stored in them to set them ablaze in a final assault, YET they used a Tank to ram the building and fired how many canisters of SMOKE and TEAR GAS into those buildings?

There was absolutely NO REASON to assault the compound. NO ONE in the compound was a threat to any civilian. And they were no threat to the FBI surrounding the place either. There is no evidence that the cultists ever fired on the FBI. And the original ATF raid there are NO bullet holes in any vehicle in the lot on the side facing the building.

You've contradicted yourself nicely in your post.

You say that the "buildings had gasoline stored in them to set them ablaze in a final assault".

You say that "NO ONE in the compound was a threat to any civilian".

Are you implying that all of the children were not threatened by the fact that they were in a building that was full of gasoline meant to set them ablaze?

Or are you implying that the children were not civilians?

 

[AllieBaba]

Let's re-visit the Kent State victims...

Here's the 'hippies' that were exterminated by the state...

Allison B. Krause (April 23, 1951 - May 4, 1970) was an honors student at Kent State University, Ohio, when she was shot and killed by the Ohio National Guard in the Kent State shootings, while protesting the invasion of Cambodia and the presence of the National Guard on the Kent State campus. Her father had been a Holocaust survivor from Germany.

Sandra Lee Scheuer (pronounced /ˈʃɔɪ.ər/; August 11, 1949 - May 4, 1970) was a student at Kent State University in Kent, Ohio, when she was killed by Ohio National Guardsmen in the Kent State shootings.

Scheuer, born in Youngstown, Ohio, was an honors student in speech therapy. She was a graduate of Boardman High School. She did not take part in the Vietnam War protests that preceded the shootings.

Jeffrey Glenn Miller (March 28, 1950 – May 4, 1970) was a student at Kent State University in Kent, Ohio when he was shot and killed by Ohio National Guardsmen in the Kent State shootings. Shortly before his death, in May 1970, Miller had transferred to Kent State from Michigan State University. While at Michigan State, Miller pledged Phi Kappa Tau fraternity where his older brother had been a member.

William Knox Schroeder (July 20, 1950 – May 4, 1970) was a student at Kent State University, Ohio, when he was killed by Ohio National Guardsmen in the Kent State shootings.

Schroeder was born and raised in Cincinnati, Ohio. He moved with his family to Lorain, Ohio when he was in elementary school and graduated from Lorain High School where he was an honors student. Already an Eagle Scout, at age 17 Schroeder applied for the Army Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) Scholarship. He received the Academic Achievement award from both the Colorado School of Mines and from Kent State University, where he was a psychology student. He also earned the Association of the United States Army award for excellence in History.

The current historical description tells of innocent students involved in peaceful protest. In fact they had burned the ROTC building to the ground a few days earlier. The Governor was under tremendous pressure to get the situation under control.
On the day of the shooting, the student protesters broke down a fence, flanked and surrounded the National Gurard troops. The poorly trained troops panicked and fired on the crowd. The students who were killed were innocent victims, but were part of a larger crowd that was far from innocent[/QUOTE]

Imagine that. Dozens of armed military, surrounded and threatened by an enemy, firing into the crowd.

It boggles the mind. What the hell were they thinking?

At any rate, they were steps from a building they could use for cover. As I said the original accounts say they either heard sniper fire or thought they heard it.