Lets have a clean debate about AGW

[Old Rocks]

And the MWP was primarily a North Atlantic event, with a total increase in global warmth, as indicated by sediment cores from various tropical areas, of only 0.2 C. We are at an increase of 0.7 C right now, and rising.[/B]

That simply is not true. There are more than 200 papers covering the entire globe stating that the medieval warm period was both warmer than the present and global in nature. If you like, I can provide published papers from Africa, Asia, Antartica, New Zealand, Australia, Eurpoe, all of the oceans, and South America.

It is first class denial to claim that a world wide event was just a north atlantic event. Think about it a second and use your brain....some of the strongest MWP signals were found in the Vostok ice cores not so far away from the south pole.

200 papers, and you presented none?

 

[Old Rocks]

http://www.meteo.psu.edu/holocene/public_html/shared/articles/Croninetal-GlobPlanChng03.pdf

T.M. Cronin a,*, G.S. Dwyer b, T. Kamiya c, S. Schwede a, D.A. Willard a
aNational Center, MS 926A, U.S. Geological Survey, Reston, VA 20192, USA
bEarth and Ocean Sciences, Nicholas School of the Environment and Earth Sciences, Duke University, Durham, NC 27708, USA
cDepartment of Geology, Kanazawa University, Kanazawa, Japan
Received 15 July 2001; accepted 29 May 2002
Abstract
We present paleoclimate evidence for rapid ( < 100 years) shifts of f2&#8211;4 jC in Chesapeake Bay (CB) temperature f2100, 1600, 950, 650, 400 and 150 years before present (years BP) reconstructed from magnesium/calcium (Mg/Ca) paleothermometry. These include large temperature excursions during the Little Ice Age (f1400&#8211;1900 AD) and the Medieval Warm Period (f800&#8211;1300 AD) possibly related to changes in the strength of North Atlantic thermohaline circulation (THC).
Evidence is presented for a long period of sustained regional and North Atlantic-wide warmth with low-amplitude temperature variability between f450 and 1000 AD. In addition to centennial-scale temperature shifts, the existence of numerous
temperature maxima between 2200 and 250 years BP (average f70 years) suggests that multi-decadal processes typical of the North Atlantic Oscillation (NAO) are an inherent feature of late Holocene climate. However, late 19th and 20th century temperature extremes in Chesapeake Bay associated with NAO climate variability exceeded those of the prior 2000 years, including the interval 450&#8211;1000 AD, by 2&#8211;3 jC, suggesting anomalous recent behavior of the climate system.
D 2002 Elsevier Science B.V. All rights reserved.

 

[editec]

How can people who DO NOT truly have the creditials to debate a scientific issue debate about it?

Argue, perhaps, but debate?

Debating a subject requires some basic understanding of the subject.

The is no debating this subject here, there are only people attacking the character of their opponents or the sources they rely on to form their opinions.

 

[SSDD]

200 papers, and you presented none?

You have been given them over and over but here is a sampling again...

Africa:

Holmgren, K., Tyson, P.D., Moberg, A. and Svanered, O. 2001. A preliminary 3000-year regional temperature reconstruction for South Africa. South African Journal of Science 97: 49-51.

Kuhnert, H. and Mulitza, S. 2011. Multidecadal variability and late medieval cooling of near-coastal sea surface temperatures in the eastern tropical North Atlantic. Paleoceanography 26: 10.1029/2011PA002130.

deMenocal, P., Ortiz, J., Guilderson, T. and Sarnthein, M. 2000. Coherent high- and low-latitude climate variability during the Holocene warm period. Science 288: 2198-2202.

Kondrashov, D., Feliks, Y. and Ghil, M. 2005. Oscillatory modes of extended Nile River records (A.D. 622-1922). Geophysical Research Letters 32, L10702, doi:10.1029/2004GL022156, 2005.

Antarctica:

Noon, P.E., Leng, M.J. and Jones, V.J. 2003. Oxygen-isotope (&#948;18O) evidence of Holocene hydrological changes at Signy Island, maritime Antarctica. The Holocene 13: 251-263.

Khim, B.-K., Yoon, H.I., Kang, C.Y. and Bahk, J.J. 2002. Unstable climate oscillations during the Late Holocene in the Eastern Bransfield Basin, Antarctic Peninsula. Quaternary Research 58: 234-245.

Hemer, M.A. and Harris, P.T. 2003. Sediment core from beneath the Amery Ice Shelf, East Antarctica, suggests mid-Holocene ice-shelf retreat. Geology 31: 127-130

Hall, B.L. 2007. Late-Holocene advance of the Collins Ice Cap, King George Island, South Shetland Islands. The Holocene 17: 1253-1258


Asia:

Zicheng, P., Xuexian, H., Xiaozhong, L., Jianfeng, H., Guijian, L. and Baofu, N. 2003. Thermal ionization mass spectrometry (TIMS)-U-series ages of corals from the South China Sea and Holocene high sea level. Chinese Journal of Geochemistry 22: 133-139.

Ge, Q., Zheng, J., Fang, X., Man, Z., Zhang, X., Zhang, P. and Wang, W.-C. 2003. Winter half-year temperature reconstruction for the middle and lower reaches of the Yellow River and Yangtze River, China, during the past 2000 years. The Holocene 13: 933-940.

Andreev, A.A., Pierau, R., Kalugin, I.A., Daryin, A.V., Smolyaninova, L.G. and Diekmann, B. 2007. Environmental changes in the northern Altai during the last millennium documented in Lake Teletskoye pollen record. Quaternary Research 67: 394-399.

Kitagawa, H. and Matsumoto, E. 1995. Climatic implications of &#948;13C variations in a Japanese cedar (Cryptomeria japonica) during the last two millennia. Geophysical Research Letters 22: 2155-2158.


Australia/New Zealand:

Wilson, A.T., Hendy, C.H. and Reynolds, C.P. 1979. Short-term climate change and New Zealand temperatures during the last millennium. Nature 279: 315-317.

Williams, P.W., King, D.N.T., Zhao, J.-X. and Collerson, K.D. 2004. Speleothem master chronologies: combined Holocene 18O and 13C records from the North Island of New Zealand and their palaeoenvironmental interpretation. The Holocene 14: 194-208.

Eden, D.N and Page, M.J. 1998. Palaeoclimatic implications of a storm erosion record from late Holocene lake sediments, North Island, New Zealand. Palaeogeography, Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology 139: 37-58.


Oceans:

Keigwin, L.D. 1996. The Little Ice Age and Medieval Warm Period in the Sargasso Sea. Science 274: 1504-1508.

Newton, A., Thunell, R. and Stott, L. 2006. Climate and hydrographic variability in the Indo-Pacific Warm Pool during the last millennium. Geophysical Research Letters 33: 10.1029/2006GL027234.

Isono, D., Yamamoto, M., Irino, T., Oba, T., Murayama, M., Nakamura, T. and Kawahata, H. 2009. The 1500-year climate oscillation in the midlatitude North Pacific during the Holocene. Geology 37: 591-594.

Richey, J.N., Poore, R.Z., Flower, B.P. and Quinn, T.M. 2007. 1400 yr multiproxy record of climate variability from the northern Gulf of Mexico. Geology 35: 423-426.

Barron, J.A. and Bukry, D. 2007. Solar forcing of Gulf of California climate during the past 2000 yr suggested by diatoms and silicoflagellates. Marine Micropaleontology 62: 115-139.

South America:

Sepulveda, J., Pantoja, S., Hughen, K.A., Bertrand, S., Figueroa, D., Leon, T., Drenzek, N.J. and Lange, C. 2009. Late Holocene sea-surface temperature and precipitation variability in northern Patagonia, Chile (Jacaf Fjord, 44°S). Quaternary Research 72: 400-409.

Black, D. E., Thunell, R. C., Kaplan, A., Peterson, L. C. and Tappa, E. J. 2004. A 2000-year record of Caribbean and tropical North Atlantic hydrographic variability. Paleoceanography 19, PA2022, doi:10.1029/2003PA000982.

Rein B., Lückge, A., Reinhardt, L., Sirocko, F., Wolf, A. and Dullo, W.-C. 2005. El Niño variability off Peru during the last 20,000 years. Paleoceanography 20: 10.1029/2004PA001099.

Solari, M.A., Herve, F., Le Roux, J.P., Airo, A. and Sial, A.N. 2010. Paleoclimatic significance of lacustrine microbialites: A stable isotope case study of two lakes at Torres del Paine, southern Chile. Palaeogeography, Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology 297: 70-82.

And there is a lot more where those came from. As I said at least a couple of hundred.

 

[SSDD]

How can people who DO NOT truly have the creditials to debate a scientific issue debate about it?

Argue, perhaps, but debate?

Debating a subject requires some basic understanding of the subject.

The is no debating this subject here, there are only people attacking the character of their opponents or the sources they rely on to form their opinions.

You obviously have not looked at the education required to be a climatologist. Climatology is for people who want to be "scientists" but lack the mathematical skills to complete the education in a hard science.

Anyone with a BS in anything and a couple of semesters of calculus, physics, and chemistry under their belts is as or more "qualified" than 90 percent of climatologists to discuss the science.

 

[SSDD]

How can people who DO NOT truly have the creditials to debate a scientific issue debate about it?

Argue, perhaps, but debate?

Debating a subject requires some basic understanding of the subject.

The is no debating this subject here, there are only people attacking the character of their opponents or the sources they rely on to form their opinions.

I try quite often to discuss the science on this board but fellow skeptics (to one degree or another) are the only ones who can actually discuss the nuts and bolts science. It is the warmists who invariably fall back on appeals to authority when the conversation turns to a discussion of the nuts and bolts of actual science.

 

[polarbear]

Satellite data reveals extent of Andean glacier melt

Andean glaciers are also dissappearing with devastating consequences for the agriculture that depends on them.

I did read all the other posts you wrote in this thread and appreciate that you responded.
I am quite familiar with the material you have referenced.
But so are all the climatologists and mathematicians,physicists, oceanographers and geologists that are addressing the "missing heat" that was in fact observed for a whole decade now.
None of the scientific work group members refuse to acknowledge that there was in fact no temperature increase proportional to the CO2 increase for the last decade.
None of them even attempt to make the assertion that all the heat energy the CO2 increase since 2000 should have caused can be found in the amount of ice that melted anywhere on this planet.
As I posted before. "Der Spiegel" Germany`s largest (left leaning!!!) Magazine has become a "climate-Wikileaks" platform for scientists around the globe and too many of them have come forward in the last 6 months as AR5 is being prepared to be ignored any longer.
But there won`t be any mention of it in the upcoming AR5, :

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) has been established by World Meteorological Organization (WMO) and United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) to assess scientific, technical and socio-economic information relevant for the understanding of climate change, its potential impacts and options for adaptation and mitigation. It is open to all Members of the UN and of WMO.

I am under no illusion that the submissions from the scientific groups that have gathered the 2000-2013 data will be published without the usual whitewash and editing.
It`s not about science it`s about "socio economics" for the want of so called science that is politically suitable to justify it.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesta...ing-united-nations-doubles-down-on-ignorance/

About Global Warming, United Nations Doubles Down On Ignorance

Laframboise created a sensation in global warming circles last year when she documented rampant IPCC misbehavior in her book, &#8220;The Delinquent Teenager Who Was Mistaken for the World&#8217;s Top Climate Expert.&#8221;
Although IPCC officials claim the group relies solely on peer-reviewed material for its assessment reports, Laframboise audited the Fourth Assessment and found 21 of the 44 Fourth Assessment chapters contained at least 40 percent non-peer reviewed reference sources, often taking the form of student theses and advocacy papers published by environmental activist groups. For the Fourth Assessment Report as a whole, more than 30 percent of the referenced sources were not peer-reviewed.
Laframboise reported 130 &#8220;leading climate scientists&#8221; have now joined WWF to work with the activist group, supplementing the 78 IPCC participants in the 2007 Report. Laframboise also reported that IPCC has issued two separate statements during the past six weeks that directly contradict IPCC Chairman Raj Pachauri on IPCC rules and procedures.
In another new development, Laframboise reports that IPCC lead author Andrew Weaver has dropped all pretense of political and scientific objectivity and is now running for political office in Canada representing the Green Party

It`s all true and you can easily verify that yourself

All it takes is one look how and who the IPCC assembles their technical staff. It`s got nothing to do with ability and everything with political correctness.

Ellie Farahani
Head of Operations

Susanne Kadner
Deputy Head

Steffen Schloemer
Scientist

Brigitte Knopf
Senior Advisor

Anna Adler
Team Assistant

Kristin Seyboth
Senior Scientist


Science Lead, Adaptation

Nirivololona Raholijao

Co-Director, Science

Operations Specialist


And so on and on.
Looking at the last face and who it resembles I can muse that the only one still missing from the American work group is Nancy Pelosi.
I`m willing to give you 10:1 odds that all the American work group members are democrats


Independent audits have confirmed that most of the so called "scientific staff" don`t even have a degree in science but are activists.
It`s the typical kind of staff that you would encounter in any Obama style government run or government tax$ sponsored organization...which the IPCC is...it`s a pure-bread ! And they are there for the sole purpose to give the governments that contribute an additional tax revenue that surpasses all the other taxation avenues they have had so far..
Of course the IPCC is demanding a share of that to "redistribute" it to the 3rd world. Many of those countries are ruled by the corruptest politicians and dictators.
Just in case you are wondering why 31,487 American scientists have signed this petition, including 9,029 with PhDs
And I am also willing to give you 10:1 odds that none of those are democrats

Okay enough of that.
I did not start this thread to re-hash how we got the hockey stick
It`s public knowledge how we got it and just because the climatologists who assembled it managed to avoid fraud charges after a parliament inquiry in England does not validate the hockey stick.
I opened this thread to examine the lack of temperature increase from 2000 to 2013

 

[polarbear]

How can people who DO NOT truly have the creditials to debate a scientific issue debate about it?

Argue, perhaps, but debate?

Debating a subject requires some basic understanding of the subject.

The is no debating this subject here, there are only people attacking the character of their opponents or the sources they rely on to form their opinions.

I try quite often to discuss the science on this board but fellow skeptics (to one degree or another) are the only ones who can actually discuss the nuts and bolts science. It is the warmists who invariably fall back on appeals to authority when the conversation turns to a discussion of the nuts and bolts of actual science.

keep it coming.
You are doing A-Okay !