Let us discuss this openly... What exactly IS the "two states solution"?

[Coyote]

In 1950, the Knesset passed the Absentees Property Law, which declared that any property situated within the post-war boundaries of Israel and owned by an Arab who had left the country between November 29, 1947 and May 19, 1948, or by a Palestinian who went abroad or to an area of Palestine held by hostile forces up to September 1, 1948, lost all rights to that property. ​

The Absentees Property Law says nothing about either Arabs or Jews.​

The way it is applied disproportionately effects Palestinians.

 

[Coyote]

...It also means that the myth that the Palestinians are mostly "foreign invaders" is just that, a myth just like the myth that the European Jews are foreign "colonizers"....

LMAO, if the European Jews are not foreign "colonizers," then what the hell are they?

Immigrants.

verb (used with object), colonized, colonizing.

1.
to establish a colony in; settle:
England colonized Australia.

2.
to form a colony of:
to colonize laborers in a mining region.



verb (used without object), colonized, colonizing.

3.
to form a colony:
They went out to Australia to colonize.

4.
to settle in a colony.

the definition of colonizer

Care to try again?

Except Jews were already there. Colonists = foreigners.

 

[Coyote]

Solution:

Although as a Jew it breaks my heart to give away any part of our Promised Land, as a realist I see we have no choice. So the land has to be divided, unfortunately, according to the 1967 lines, with some land swaps. Israel should get Ma'alei Adumim (where there's a large Anglo population, including relatives and friends of mine), and the Gush bloc. Galilee (with its large Arab population), and parts of the Negev can go to Palestine in exchange. Special visiting arrangements for Jews to go to Abraham's, Rachel's, and Joseph's Tombs in Palestine. Palestine can be fully independent economically and diplomatically, but it cannot have an army. The Arab parts of East Jerusalem can be their capital if that's their preference, but that does not include the Old City, which remains under Israeli control. (Hopefully they will make Ramallah their capital.) The current status quo remains on the Temple Mount. No dual citizenship, which means that the current Jewish settlers become Palestinian citizens. Gaza will not be part of the West Bank Palestine. It will do whatever it wants to do. The End.

I'm not sure about no dual citizenship...but I agree on Gaza. There is no reasonable way to link it without compromising on Israel's security.

 

[montelatici]

The Holy Land Was Hollow Before the Jews Returned

The rational historical analogy is just the opposite. The Israelis are our brave and productive pioneers, the Arabs are the useless Indian savages.

Please, do not offend the First Nations. They were really there first before the Mayflower and all others began to arrive and not be happy later with what was available for them.
All water for Europeans, all desert for the Indians.

Arabs are from Arabia

Jews are from Judea

That's not really true. The term "Arab" has come to include a wide variety of peoples who's cultures have been "Arabisized" - Arabic is the common language, and the culture is Arab influenced but that doesn't mean they came from Arabia.

The term Arab means all who identify as such having come from the Arabian Peninsula. The Saudi, the Hashemites, the Husseini, the Yemenites, the UAE, Qatar, are all Arab, in language, culture, etc because they developed that history more then 2000 years ago.
It is melting pot, an ethnicity, not a race.

The same goes for the Jews. Most Jews are from the area of Ancient Canaan. A melting pot of all the Canaanite tribes which formed the Nation of Israel, and eventually the people came to be known as Jews, from the area of Judea (Judah, one of the twelve tribes).

Arabs, with all who eventually moved to Arabia and were born there ages ago, are known as Arabs.

Berbers and any other ethnicity, like the Kurds, Copts, Yazidis, Assyrians, etc are not Arabs.
They call themselves Berbers, and not Arabs. I have met one.
He spoke Arabic, but did not call himself an Arab, because he was a Berber, which is a distinct group from the Arabs.


Being "Arabized" is not the same thing as being an Arab.
Speaking Arabic, as many Jews did in Arab countries, does not make anyone an Arab. Copts in Egypt speak Arabic, and they are not Arabs.

Arabs now live all over the world. It does not mean that they did not originate from the Arabian Peninsula. If not, they would not call themselves Arabs, as the Husseini and their descendants, who came from Arabia into Jerusalem in the 11th century , did.

Jews are not Jews?

Arabs are not Arabs?

Seriously????

Let me ask you before I go further: are you arguing that all the "Arab" people in what is now referred to as Palestine/Israel came from elsewhere?

That is the meaning of the word Arab. Those who come from Arabia.
Like anyone else, they have moved outside Arabia, especially after the 7th century CE.

They went to other parts of Asia, Europe, Americas, Australia.
They are still, and will continue to be, indigenous of the Arabian Peninsula where they originated.

The Jews just did the same thing, even before the Greek and Roman invasions. Going to Europe with Caesar or during the 70 CE revolt. They are still indigenous from the ancient Land of Canaan, the Land of Israel.

Palestine is a Region.
There was never a Palestinian People on that land, be it the Jews, or anyone else.

A Palestinian People arose from the Arab leaders in the area needing to keep the Jews from recreating their National Homeland.

Yes, there were Arabs on the land since the 7th Century invasion.
They never called themselves Palestinians or anything else but Arabs and Muslims until 1964.
If the Mandate for Palestine had been called the Mandate for Israel, they would be calling themselves the real Israelites, now.
If it had been called the Mandate for Canaan, they would be calling themselves Canaanites, now.

But in reality, Arabs are Arabs, and they are indigenous of Arabia.

Palestinian Authority Head Admits "Palestinian People" Don't Exist

Do Berbers call themselves Arabs? No
Do the Copts? No.
Do any other indigenous people in the Middle East call themselves Arabs, besides the Arabs? No

Not the Kurds. And they are in Mesopotamia, Iraq.
Not the Assyrians, who are in Syria.


Who are the Palestinian Arabs?
Where did all their ancestors come from?

People whose language is Arabic, call themselves Arabs. That's what an Arab is. An Arabian, on the other hand, is a person from the Arabian peninsula.

Tunisians have less Arabian genes than Ashkenazi Jews, yet they call themselves Arabs. Because they speak Arabic.

The Palestinians have been DNA tested and they are not from Arabia. They are from Palestine/Canaan. Israel blocked the publishing of the results through Jewish surrogates in America and had surrogates sue the authors of the report.

"Immunologist faces court case"

Unprecedented censorhip at Human Immunology | The BMJ

"A keynote research paper showing that Middle Eastern Jews and Palestinians are genetically almost identical has been pulled from a leading journal.

Academics who have already received copies of Human Immunology have been urged to rip out the offending pages and throw them away."


"In common with earlier studies, the team found no data to support the idea that Jewish people were genetically distinct from other people in the region. In doing so, the team's research challenges claims that Jews are a special, chosen people and that Judaism can only be inherited."

Journal axes gene research on Jews and Palestinians

Details:

"The Eurocentric confusion “Arab = Muslim” has also lowered the Palestinian identity by identifying the country where Mohammed was born (Saudi Arabia) with the Muslim religion; it also has artificially divided peoples both coming from ancient Canaanites (Jews and Palestinians)."




Arnaiz-Villena, A., Elaiwa, N., Silvera, C., Rostom, A., Moscoso, J., Gómez-Casado, E., Allende, L., Varela, P., & Martínez-Laso, J. (2001). The origin of Palestinians and their genetic relatedness with other Mediterranean populations. Human Immunology, 62, 889-900.

ABSTRACT: The genetic profile of Palestinians has, for the first time, been studied by using human leukocyte antigen (HLA) gene variability and haplotypes. The comparison with other Mediterranean populations by using neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses reveal that Palestinians are genetically very close to Jews and other Middle East populations, including Turks (Anatolians), Lebanese, Egyptians, Armenians and Iranians. Archaeologic and genetic data support that both Jews and Palestinians came from the ancient Canaanites, who extensively mixed with Egyptians, Mesopotamian and Anatolian peoples in ancient times. Thus, Palestinian-Jewish rivalry is based in cultural and religious, but not in genetic, differences. The relatively close relatedness of both Jews and Palestinians to western Mediterranean populations reflects the continuous circum-Mediterranean cultural and gene flow that have occurred in prehistoric and historic times. This flow overtly contradicts the demic diffusion model of western Mediterranean populations substitution by agriculturalists coming from the Middle East in the Mesolithic-Neolithic transition.

Hebrew Vision News: The Origin Of Palestinians And Their Genetic Relatedness With Other Mediterranean Populations (PDF)

 

[Coyote]

Well, I see that this thread has devolved into the direction of every other single thread here. the old grudges, wrongs, and history; when the intent was to look at what is NOW and how to go forward into a peaceful future.

I want to thank Lipush for starting this thread, Shusha, ForeverYoung, Coyote, and Humanity (hope I got them all) for their positive contributions.

The rest, well, thanks for ruining an otherwise good thread.

I'd like to know if either Coyote or Humanity, being Palestinian supporters, agree with the proposals on the thread.

I agree with Foreveryoung I think but would like to see a map. It's hard to visualize it. I also wonder why dual citizenship would be opposed but maybe I missed the explanation.

 

[Shusha]

In 1950, the Knesset passed the Absentees Property Law, which declared that any property situated within the post-war boundaries of Israel and owned by an Arab who had left the country between November 29, 1947 and May 19, 1948, or by a Palestinian who went abroad or to an area of Palestine held by hostile forces up to September 1, 1948, lost all rights to that property. ​

The Absentees Property Law says nothing about either Arabs or Jews.​

The way it is applied disproportionately effects Palestinians.

Of course. The intent is to identify people who were hostile to the nascent Israeli State. The same law was enacted by Jordan and affects primarily Jews.

Do you think this is an egg we can unbreak? Compensation is the only reasonable remedy here for both Jews and Arabs.

 

[Shusha]

I agree with Foreveryoung I think but would like to see a map. It's hard to visualize it. I also wonder why dual citizenship would be opposed but maybe I missed the explanation.

Something like this:

 

[louie888]

...It also means that the myth that the Palestinians are mostly "foreign invaders" is just that, a myth just like the myth that the European Jews are foreign "colonizers"....

LMAO, if the European Jews are not foreign "colonizers," then what the hell are they?

Immigrants.

verb (used with object), colonized, colonizing.

1.
to establish a colony in; settle:
England colonized Australia.

2.
to form a colony of:
to colonize laborers in a mining region.



verb (used without object), colonized, colonizing.

3.
to form a colony:
They went out to Australia to colonize.

4.
to settle in a colony.

the definition of colonizer

Care to try again?

Except Jews were already there. Colonists = foreigners.

Not the same "Jews." We are talking about Europeans.

Remember what you said?

a myth just like the myth that the European Jews are foreign "colonizers"....

 

[Shusha]

With respect to above map -- Teddy suggested a Jordan Valley corridor to remain with Israel. And I suggested a corridor to Hebron to preserve the Jewish Holy Places there.

 

[Coyote]

Spoiler alert: If we just ignore Tinmore's posts in this thread, he will go away.

Ha. He's finally actually contributing to the conversation. The issue of refugees has to be considered as part of the two-state solution, don't you think? What are your thoughts on that?

The issue of the refugees is only been perpetuated by the Arabs in order to destroy Israel.

Never in history, including Jews or any Muslims or Arabs, have a people been kept as refugees beyond the generation which was indeed forced to flee any war, etc.

Check the definition for the word refugees.

Then look at the UNWRA created definition of refugees reserved for only those who were expelled during the war originated by the Arabs leaders in order to destroy Israel.

Only one definition is valid.

Jews were forced to become refugees from Europe with WWII and from all Arab/Muslim countries from 1948 on.

There isn't one Jewish person who continues to call themselves refugees, or makes any demands to return to their original homes, even those who are still living.

The refugees from Syria, and other places are looking for a new place to live, to move on.

That is what being a refugee means.

It means that one does not get to return to where one came from, for the most part, especially while a war continues in the area.

Many Palestinians were allowed to return to Israel, due to family.
Israel allowed that.

No Jews have been allowed back into Jordan, Gaza and many areas of Judea and Samaria where they lived, had homes, etc, as they were taken over by the Arabs from 1948 to 1967.

There are refugees from the Arab side?

There are definitely Jewish refugees, forced at gun point, from Judea, Samaria, Jordan and even Gaza.

In other words, the number of Jews expelled from Arab countries is even greater than the number of Arabs told by their leaders or expelled due to violence towards Israel.

One solution is to just call the refugee issue even.

But the Arab Leaders will never accept that. As they will never accept Israel.

I will politely disagree here with your first statement - there are many unresolved refugee situations that are long term and ongoing. This one is not unique - it's just that the others get little attention in comparison. One of the oldest is Coopers Camp in West Bengal, India - that was est. in 1946 who's people remain stateless and without citizenship in India.

It's true that the Arab countries have used the Palestinian refugees for their own political purposes - but some have taken in a great many Palestinians. If there is a Palestinian state, then I think that state should negotiate with the Arab countries and Israel on a solution to the refugees. I think at one time the PA flat out refused to include any refugees outside of the region in the new state.

 

[Coyote]

In 1950, the Knesset passed the Absentees Property Law, which declared that any property situated within the post-war boundaries of Israel and owned by an Arab who had left the country between November 29, 1947 and May 19, 1948, or by a Palestinian who went abroad or to an area of Palestine held by hostile forces up to September 1, 1948, lost all rights to that property. ​

The Absentees Property Law says nothing about either Arabs or Jews.​

The way it is applied disproportionately effects Palestinians.

Of course. The intent is to identify people who were hostile to the nascent Israeli State. The same law was enacted by Jordan and affects primarily Jews.

Do you think this is an egg we can unbreak? Compensation is the only reasonable remedy here for both Jews and Arabs.

I disagree - I think the there was also substantial intent to gain land and prevent Palestinians from claiming it as per the link.

I think that more recent uses of it it can be reviewed in courts (if they haven't been already) and the courts can decide. I think in older cases, compensation is the best route - you can't go back.

 

[Coyote]

...It also means that the myth that the Palestinians are mostly "foreign invaders" is just that, a myth just like the myth that the European Jews are foreign "colonizers"....

LMAO, if the European Jews are not foreign "colonizers," then what the hell are they?

Immigrants.

verb (used with object), colonized, colonizing.

1.
to establish a colony in; settle:
England colonized Australia.

2.
to form a colony of:
to colonize laborers in a mining region.



verb (used without object), colonized, colonizing.

3.
to form a colony:
They went out to Australia to colonize.

4.
to settle in a colony.

the definition of colonizer

Care to try again?

Except Jews were already there. Colonists = foreigners.

Not the same "Jews." We are talking about Europeans.

Remember what you said?

a myth just like the myth that the European Jews are foreign "colonizers"....

A colonist is a member of a government-backed group that settles in a new country or region. The land that's claimed by a colonist is usually already occupied by another group of people.

What government?
Are they "colonists" if the land was already occupied by their people?

 

[Coyote]

I agree with Foreveryoung I think but would like to see a map. It's hard to visualize it. I also wonder why dual citizenship would be opposed but maybe I missed the explanation.

Something like this:

I'm somewhat ignorant of the geography of Israel...so maybe remedies for this was discussed already but - the disontinuity of areas between Jerusalem and Salit seem really problematic.

 

[Shusha]

I'm somewhat ignorant of the geography of Israel...so maybe remedies for this was discussed already but - the disontinuity of areas between Jerusalem and Salit seem really problematic.

I think the Palestinian portions can be made contiguous.

 

[Coyote]

I'm somewhat ignorant of the geography of Israel...so maybe remedies for this was discussed already but - the disontinuity of areas between Jerusalem and Salit seem really problematic.

I think the Palestinian portions can be made contiguous.

That could be more workable.

What's your thought on dual citizenship?

 

[louie888]

LMAO, if the European Jews are not foreign "colonizers," then what the hell are they?

Immigrants.

verb (used with object), colonized, colonizing.

1.
to establish a colony in; settle:
England colonized Australia.

2.
to form a colony of:
to colonize laborers in a mining region.



verb (used without object), colonized, colonizing.

3.
to form a colony:
They went out to Australia to colonize.

4.
to settle in a colony.

the definition of colonizer

Care to try again?

Except Jews were already there. Colonists = foreigners.

Not the same "Jews." We are talking about Europeans.

Remember what you said?

a myth just like the myth that the European Jews are foreign "colonizers"....

A colonist is a member of a government-backed group that settles in a new country or region. The land that's claimed by a colonist is usually already occupied by another group of people.

What government?
Are they "colonists" if the land was already occupied by their people?

You're not following the conversation and the definition was posted prior.

 

[Shusha]

What's your thought on dual citizenship?

I'm mildly for it. But I'm pretty sure neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians will go for it. A possible advantage is that if people misbehave they can be extradited to the other nationality. But that could also be seen as a disadvantage too. Depends on how actually peaceful the eventual peace treaty is.

 

[Coyote]

What's your thought on dual citizenship?

I'm mildly for it. But I'm pretty sure neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians will go for it. A possible advantage is that if people misbehave they can be extradited to the other nationality. But that could also be seen as a disadvantage too. Depends on how actually peaceful the eventual peace treaty is.

I can see the disadvantages - when you two states formed that have been in conflict for so long, there could always be questions and concerns about loyalty.

 

[Sixties Fan]

That is the meaning of the word Arab. Those who come from Arabia.
Like anyone else, they have moved outside Arabia, especially after the 7th century CE.

They went to other parts of Asia, Europe, Americas, Australia.
They are still, and will continue to be, indigenous of the Arabian Peninsula where they originated.

The Jews just did the same thing, even before the Greek and Roman invasions. Going to Europe with Caesar or during the 70 CE revolt. They are still indigenous from the ancient Land of Canaan, the Land of Israel.

Palestine is a Region.
There was never a Palestinian People on that land, be it the Jews, or anyone else.

A Palestinian People arose from the Arab leaders in the area needing to keep the Jews from recreating their National Homeland.

Yes, there were Arabs on the land since the 7th Century invasion.
They never called themselves Palestinians or anything else but Arabs and Muslims until 1964.
If the Mandate for Palestine had been called the Mandate for Israel, they would be calling themselves the real Israelites, now.
If it had been called the Mandate for Canaan, they would be calling themselves Canaanites, now.

But in reality, Arabs are Arabs, and they are indigenous of Arabia.

Palestinian Authority Head Admits "Palestinian People" Don't Exist

Do Berbers call themselves Arabs? No
Do the Copts? No.
Do any other indigenous people in the Middle East call themselves Arabs, besides the Arabs? No

Not the Kurds. And they are in Mesopotamia, Iraq.
Not the Assyrians, who are in Syria.


Who are the Palestinian Arabs?
Where did all their ancestors come from?

Who are the Palestinian Arabs?

Blood brothers: Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots
Blood brothers with Jews and Druze.


What is the Arab history in Palestine?
Arabs are not a singular people. Origins are complex and intermingled with many peoples and lines. According to tradition, true Arabs are descendants of Abraham and his son Ishmael and prior to the 20th century, “Arab” designated the Bedouin, tribal-based society of the Arabian desert, which is the birthplace of Arabic. Other Arabs are ethnic groups that have been extant in their lands of origin for millennia. Modern Arab nationalism is a product of 19th- and 20th-century developments and has no prior historical basis. Before the rise of nationalism, most Arabic-speakers identified themselves as members of a particular family or tribe; as residents of a village, town, or region; as Muslims, Christians, or Jews; or as subjects of large political entities such as the Ottoman empire.

Please, spare me the "Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots"
nonsense.

Fine. Ignore the science if you want to.

It really shouldn't suprise you given the movements and migrations of people in that area throughout a long period of history.

They never said that BEFORE they were to lose the land of Israel to the Jews. And right now, it is only 20% of the Jewish Homeland.
Which they want very badly, and with no Jews around, or very few.
Vide Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Bahrain, Yemen.

None of which has any bearing on the science of it.

Why does the fact that they are closely related upset you so much?

That is total nonsense and all it takes is for the Arabs to take a DNA test to prove if they came from the region of Ancient Canaan, or from the region of Arabia.

Some Jews being forced into Islam and or intermarrying with Arabs for the past 100 years, does not make Jews and Arabs of the same genetic root.

It does if you accept the fact that "arab" applies to a wide group of people. If anything it's fascinating as it gives an insight into the interrelatedness and movements of different ancient people.

It also means that the myth that the Palestinians are mostly "foreign invaders" is just that, a myth just like the myth that the European Jews are foreign "colonizers".

And the only purpose of perpetrating those memes is to delegitimize one or the other and that leads to no solutions. That's also why "indiginous" is meaningless in resolving this conflict.

You are ignoring the Jewish DNA and the studies about it.

How many of those who got tested by the results you are providing have gone to Jewish labs and taken a DNA test to prove that they have any Jewish DNA in them?

I can tell you. Zero.

Why? Because those who have made the tests you are providing, would never provide the same people they tested to prove via a Jewish DNA test, that they actually have any Jewish DNA in them.

So...you are saying that unless these genetic studies are done in a "Jewish lab" they are fraudulant?

Which does not mean that those Arabs who have any Jewish DNA in them are Jewish, all it means it that at some point in the past 1700 years, their ancestors had relations with those from the one Jewish Tribe from Arabia, whose females and children were sold into slavery in the 7th Century, or any other Jews who were forced to convert to Islam in any part of Islam conquered land, or somewho have intermarried with Arabs, since the last century, including in Israel.

I'm not saying they ARE Jewish - I'm saying they are CLOSELY RELATED and in fact MORE CLOSELY RELATED to some of the Jewish groups than to some of the Arab groups.

Why does it bother you so much to acknowledge they are closely related?

Same genetic root does not mean what you seem to think it does.

Semitic is a group of languages. The languages are similar, but not the same.

If it was a matter of being "Semitic" then all Arameic, Samaritians, etc would be also of the same genetic root as the Arabs.
So would the Copts, the Syrians, the Kurds.
All must have had intermarriages with the Arabs at some point, no matter what the number is.

DNA, the genetic roots, is about where the people come from, that is what a DNA test proves.

Can any Arab take the test and prove that they have Jewish DNA, aka, some ancestor came from the ancient land of Canaan/Israel?

That is what many are proving, from China, India, Ethiopia, etc.

When are the Arabs going to do allow Israel to conduct DNA tests on those who claim to have Jewish Ancestry?

Still, it does not mean that ALL Arabs, as they come from Arabia, have Jewish ancestry, common genetic roots, in them.

As you can tell, it is not that Arabs ARE genetically connected to Jews, is that they have been lying for the past 50 years that they have any ancestral connection at all.

Root means, Jews and Arabs come from the same place.

They do not, and Arabs know that.

Another attempt to displace the Jews from their ancient Land and turning Ancient Israel into a majority, or only, Arab population with an unproven test is nothing to get upset about.


The Jews have the part of Israel they have and they are keeping it, and keeping the country and the population safe, despite all the attempts to the contrary.

No different than it was during Greek or Roman control of their land.

No Arabs in sight.

Are you winding me up?

I am saying:

What is the evidence that those labs had Jewish DNA to compare to?

Exactly where are the documents from any of these studies and have they been seen or studied by Jewish geneticists experts?
I see no articles or studies determining that it ever occurred.
That the study, the tests, have either been confirmed or not, by any Israeli, or Jewish lab with the ability to study the results.

What are the names of the people who were part of those studies, and would they subject to another test, one from a lab which could compare their DNA with the Jewish DNA?

 

[P F Tinmore]

...It also means that the myth that the Palestinians are mostly "foreign invaders" is just that, a myth just like the myth that the European Jews are foreign "colonizers"....

LMAO, if the European Jews are not foreign "colonizers," then what the hell are they?

Immigrants.

NOT!