Justifiable use of deadly force or not?

[OODA_Loop]

It only does for responsible gun owners, not for you. The guy set up a loop where he was armed and the aggressor and was going to kill anyone who fought back. Then he kept repeating it until he got what he wanted. That's murder one

You don't really know that

You've obviously never taken a gun safety course

I have. How do you know he wanted to murder ?

 

[Lewdog]

Maybe this will help - even when a person is assaultive but without serious bodily harm, the appropriate response is "non-lethal"

When I worked at the prison we had an acronym to list when deadly force could be used.

F- Felony, when an inmate is committing a felony that can only be prevented with deadly force
O- Other, protection of another person who is at severe risk
R- Riot
S- Self, to protect yourself from a situation in which your life is at risk
E- Escape

Of course as a private citizen it is different, but it gives a good idea of the legal boundaries.

 

[OODA_Loop]

So if you came out of a store and some guy was screaming at your wife in the parking lot, you wouldn't be worried for her safety? You're seriously claiming that? It was threatening, it wasn't just verbal.

So in this case from the video....my wife would be in Condition Yellow and have had the window up and her lawfully concealed weapon at the ready. She would not engage him.

I would have exited in Condition Yellow and made my way to the passenger side with my lawfully concealed weapon at the ready. I would not go hands on as this individual did for fear of deadly escalation.

We backup and leave.

Very nice solution -- thanx for the advice.

On the other hand, he'd scream at someone's woman and cap him if he pushed him

No I wouldnt.

 

[Vastator]

It depends on the situation there sport. I agree in principle, but so long as you don't pull the weapon, then what is your beef?

Gun safety starts with avoiding dangerous situations where possible. You don't create a dangerous situation where there could be a shooting. If you're screaming at a woman and her boyfriend is coming out, that right there is setting up a dangerous situation. I mean duh. How do you not get that?

I'm disappointed in all of you who apparently don't view being armed in public as a responsiblity. Particularly 2aguy who is a longtime ally in arguing 2nd amendment rights. What about try NOT to use your gun eludes you?

Armed, or not one is obligated to act responsibly in public. It’s a good idea to do the same in private as well. As to what constitutes him screaming at her... That’s subjective, and we have no idea if she was “screaming” at him in kind. Nor who “screamed” first.
As for doing this while her boyfriend was coming out of the store... It’s unlikely that the victim knew he was being approached by her boyfriend. Otherwise he would likely have made some move to defend himself against an approaching threat. As for the assailaints moral high ground... Muh dicking for your girlfriend gets no traction. He could have just as easily displayed his virtue by telling the driver not to park in the handicapped spot.
And for those bleeding hearts who assume the assailants location indicated the assault was over... You‘re merely speculating. The assault is only over when the assailant decides its over; or when he’s rendered incapable of furthering the assault. The victim made the choice in this case, by opting for choice two.

Yes, and by repeatedly being aggressive and armed, death was the eventual outcome, which is why it was murder. That isn't how you act when you're armed

Being armed has nothing to do with how you should act.

It only does for responsible gun owners, not for you. The guy set up a loop where he was armed and the aggressor and was going to kill anyone who fought back. Then he kept repeating it until he got what he wanted. That's murder one

One should conduct themselves the same whether armed or not. If having a weapon on your person changes your demeanor... Then you shouldn’t be carrying a weapon.

 

[Circe]

I can take verbal all day.

I am satisfied with this response as advice. If Maryland does go concealed carry (and it could happen: it's only the black areas around Baltimore and DC that are leftwing, after all -- though they have PLENTY of guns) and I do start carrying a gun, which I sort of think I would being tougher than people think, I'm going to take that point of view.

Whereas earlier this year a pop-off at the supermarket (pretty much the only public crowd situation we go to anymore!) started yelling and carrying on at us that we had "stolen" his parking place. Neither of us had seen him at all. Anyway, we got in a parking place, so what?

I pretty much ate him up. I really enjoyed it. I just wasn't having any, and he was funny-looking: 30s, long black beard, too tall. He backed off, heh-heh.

BUT --- if people are carrying guns normally in my state, I would stop doing that. Too dangerous.

 

[Circe]

One should conduct themselves the same whether armed or not. If having a weapon on your person changes your demeanor... Then you shouldn’t be carrying a weapon.

It would probably make me milder. I would know I wouldn't have to defend myself with sheer assertiveness.

 

[beagle9]

I guess we just come from very different cultures. I grew up outside Kalamazoo, Michigan (hence "kaz"). Once you left the city in the 70s, it was country. I was taught that carrying is a responsibility. You avoid conflict, you don't create it. Screaming at a woman then capping her boyfriend when he tried to protect her wouldn't fly. Those are my values

I wouldnt have said anything either.
But words dont give you the right to attack someone.

When you're screaming at a woman in the parking lot waiving your hands, that isn't just words. So seriously, if that happened to your wife, you'd say that? They're just words? Or would you have been very concerned for your wife's safety?

And regardless, when someone shoves you and backs away, that doesn't give you the right to shoot them.

Again, where I'm from, if I'd been armed and screaming at the woman, my community would stop supporting what I did right there. They'd have said I had already violated gun safety standards and created a hostile situation, which you don't do when armed. Then I get shoved by her boyfriend and I gank him? No way, it's not right.

At least not where I was raised

Technically, on the video, the guy advances and only retreats, slightly when the gun is pointed at him..... but between the backing up and shooting there isn't time, and he got shot..... Again, the guy violently attacked the victim....

Bullshit. I’d bet you a million bucks he’s going to prison. I’ll bet a jury will agree too

Past history doesn't matter when you have the video of the attacker initiating the violent attack..... He may have been shouting at the woman, he didn't initiate the violence....

You are wrong bud, because a push doesn't warrant being killed after the pusher disengaged immediately afterwards and stepped back. The shooter had lost his cool due to being pushed down, and his rage caused him to abuse his authority to have a permit to carry or a loaded firearm on his person. Once he pulled the weapon his responsibility was to stop whatever would have transpired after pulling the weapon, and once he saw that the now victim had stopped, and stepped backwards, then it was his responsibility to also stop at that point.

He proved that he was absolutely not qualified to have the permit or a loaded handgun on his person. He became what he was supposed to be protecting others from ("a killer").

The video tells it all regardless of any assumptions or innuendo attempts to be applied to it. One can clearly see that the shooter emotions got the best of him after the push down, and he took it one step to far thus killing the man out of his rage over the push down he got. If was stalking the parking spot that will only add to the charges making it possibly a premeditated act although maybe harder to prove in the case.

The witnesses will be important in the case as to what he was saying to the girlfriend or wife prior to the push down. If he was being polite, and was simply asking her a question as to why they had parked in the spot if weren't handicapped then he might have a lesser charge of murder in the second instead of murder in the first as if that matters much... Now if he wasn't handicapped himself, then he had no business confronting the woman at all over the issue. He should have just called the law from his vehicle, and let them handle it from there. In fact that's what he should have been doing all along if he was trying to be handicap parking spot monitor for the citizens of his community. Carry permits and weapons are for defensive purposes only, and not for deputizing Barney Fifes all over the cotton pickin place. The damming video is this cats worst nightmare come true. My condolences goes out to the family of the victim, because they didn't deserve the ultimate punishment for parking in a handicap spot.

 

[Lewdog]

I wouldnt have said anything either.
But words dont give you the right to attack someone.

When you're screaming at a woman in the parking lot waiving your hands, that isn't just words. So seriously, if that happened to your wife, you'd say that? They're just words? Or would you have been very concerned for your wife's safety?

And regardless, when someone shoves you and backs away, that doesn't give you the right to shoot them.

Again, where I'm from, if I'd been armed and screaming at the woman, my community would stop supporting what I did right there. They'd have said I had already violated gun safety standards and created a hostile situation, which you don't do when armed. Then I get shoved by her boyfriend and I gank him? No way, it's not right.

At least not where I was raised

Technically, on the video, the guy advances and only retreats, slightly when the gun is pointed at him..... but between the backing up and shooting there isn't time, and he got shot..... Again, the guy violently attacked the victim....

Bullshit. I’d bet you a million bucks he’s going to prison. I’ll bet a jury will agree too

Past history doesn't matter when you have the video of the attacker initiating the violent attack..... He may have been shouting at the woman, he didn't initiate the violence....

You are wrong bud, because a push doesn't warrant being killed after the pusher disengaged immediately afterwards and stepped back. The shooter had lost his cool due to being pushed down, and his rage caused him to abuse his authority to have a permit to carry or a loaded firearm on his person. Once he pulled the weapon his responsibility was to stop whatever would have transpired after pulling the weapon, and once he saw that the now victim had stopped, and stepped backwards, then it was his responsibility to also stop at that point.

He proved that he was absolutely not qualified to have the permit or a loaded handgun on his person. He became what he was supposed to be protecting others from ("a killer").

The video tells it all regardless of any assumptions or innuendo attempts to be applied to it. One can clearly see that the shooter emotions got the best of him after the push down, and he took it one step to far thus killing the man out of his rage over the push down he got. If was stalking the parking spot that will only add to the charges making it possibly a premeditated act although maybe harder to prove in the case.

The witnesses will be important in the case as to what he was saying to the girlfriend or wife prior to the push down. If he was being polite, and was simply asking her a question as to why they had parked in the spot if weren't handicapped, but if he wasn't handicapped then he had no business confronting the woman at all over the issue. He should have just called the law from his vehicle, and let them handle it from there. In fact that's what he should have been doing all along if he was trying to be handicap parking spot monitor for the citizens of his community. Carry permits and weapons are for defensive purposes only, and not for deputizing Barney Fifes all over the cotton pickin place. The damming video is this cats worst nightmare come true. My condolences goes out to the family of the victim, because they didn't deserve the ultimate punishment for parking in a handicap spot.

The owner of the convenient store said the shooter was a jerk that was always trying to start trouble. It just shows he had premeditation to instigate a confrontation.

 

[Circe]

Why are people parking in a handicap spot?

The store worker said the shooter was frequently harassing people.

First: that woman was NOT "parked" in a handicapped spot. She was STANDING. There's a difference, and no one gets arrested or a ticket for standing (meaning a qualified driver is in the standing car and can move it if an authority demands). That's why, presumably, she was in the car while boyfriend picked something up. Irrelevant anyway: it's not an offense anyone gets arrested for, and I know because people do it all the time where I live. It's hard to blame them, too ----------- eight empty places empty all the time right by the door? Darn.

Second: that guy was looking to shoot someone. He wanted to kill, kill, blood in his teeth. He was one angry guy.

Were these white guys or black guys or Cuban or something? Anyone know? Hard to tell from the video.

 

[OODA_Loop]

The owner of the convenient store said the shooter was a jerk that was always trying to start trouble. It just shows he had premeditation to instigate a confrontation.

But no trespass, arrest or indication of other hands on confrontation ?

 

[Circe]

We have no idea what he said. A blanket statement that it was only verbal is absurd. If a man walks up to another man screaming in his face that his wife is a whore and that he should take her home to show her a real man. He deserves to get his ass kicked. What if a man tells another man his 15 old daughter has a nice a** and he'd like to f*** it because he likes them at that age? Are those only words? Should the father try to reason with him? The idea that you can say whatever you want in whatever manner you want and not expect to get hit is ridiculous.

These are good examples. Thanx.

No, I don't agree --- maybe this is just a woman's point of view, but these statements would mark the man as certifiably insane to me, and I would be out of there fastest. I would know he was a killer just by his saying those things, because that's not sane verbalization.

 

[OODA_Loop]

You are wrong bud, because a push doesn't warrant being killed after the pusher disengaged immediately afterwards and stepped back.

Being knocked down onto the pavement can and will cause death death or great bodily harm or injury. You can parade many credible medical professionals to testify.

Stepping back from an attack on someone doesn't mean the attack is over.

 

[Vastator]

Why are people parking in a handicap spot?

The store worker said the shooter was frequently harassing people.

First: that woman was NOT "parked" in a handicapped spot. She was STANDING. There's a difference, and no one gets arrested or a ticket for standing (meaning a qualified driver is in the standing car and can move it if an authority demands). That's why, presumably, she was in the car while boyfriend picked something up. Irrelevant anyway: it's not an offense anyone gets arrested for, and I know because people do it all the time where I live. It's hard to blame them, too ----------- eight empty places empty all the time right by the door? Darn.

Second: that guy was looking to shoot someone. He wanted to kill, kill, blood in his teeth. He was one angry guy.

Were these white guys or black guys or Cuban or something? Anyone know? Hard to tell from the video.

Your second point is fantastical speculation, and nothing more. And the race of the participants is of no relevance to the issue.

 

[beagle9]

So someone threatening your family is not initiating violence, got it

Do they have means immediately available to commit great bodily harm or death while threatening ?

He did.

 

[Circe]

So you're saying that your father said that if he was screaming at a woman in a parking lot and her boyfriend came out and shoved him, your father said he'd waste his sorry ass because he deserves to die and he wouldn't think twice.

Just making sure I understand

Problem: he shoved him on to the pavement. I think that's significant and it's why this creepazoid will probably get off. Being shoved right off his feet makes him helpless (which is the point of doing it) and so he drew and shot. If you watch the video it's extremely fast -- wham down on the pavement, bam goes the gun. No thought occurred. I'm guessing he'll get off.

I sort of hope he's banned from that supermarket, though. That would seem fair, at least.

 

[Circe]

I would like to thank everyone in this thread for their civil discourse

Funny how when leftists aren't really participating in a discussion it works that way, huh?

Pardon me?

You're pardoned

Yeah --- this has been an unusually useful thread, good ideas to think about.

 

[OODA_Loop]

So someone threatening your family is not initiating violence, got it

Do they have means immediately available to commit great bodily harm or death while threatening ?

He did.

The gun was not brandished until after the attack by the deceased ?

 

[beagle9]

You are wrong bud, because a push doesn't warrant being killed after the pusher disengaged immediately afterwards and stepped back.

Being knocked down onto the pavement can and will cause death death or great bodily harm or injury. You can parade many credible medical professionals to testify.

Stepping back from an attack on someone doesn't mean the attack is over.

Can cause, but didn't cause in the incident. Big important part of this case. He should have held his ground until the law arrived, and not defended it with lethal force once realized the weapon had stopped the attack.

Nothing was left but for the police to arrive, but he took the shot out of his rage.

 

[kaz]

So someone threatening your family is not initiating violence, got it

Do they have means immediately available to commit great bodily harm or death while threatening ?

Did you seriously just ask that? First of all, a full size grown man screaming at a woman can do great bodily harm to a woman, yes.

And the answer to can a guy who pushed you down for doing that and stood back isn't doing you great bodily harm or death either, hypocrite

 

[kaz]

So if you came out of a store and some guy was screaming at your wife in the parking lot, you wouldn't be worried for her safety? You're seriously claiming that? It was threatening, it wasn't just verbal.

So in this case from the video....my wife would be in Condition Yellow and have had the window up and her lawfully concealed weapon at the ready. She would not engage him.

I would have exited in Condition Yellow and made my way to the passenger side with my lawfully concealed weapon at the ready. I would not go hands on as this individual did for fear of deadly escalation.

We backup and leave.

Very nice solution -- thanx for the advice.

On the other hand, he'd scream at someone's woman and cap him if he pushed him

No I wouldnt.

OK, fair enough. You'd just defend it