Judge Bans Use Of “Illegal” and “Aliens”

[Grismonda]

Grismonda, are you capable of actually discussing the topic, or should I just work around you?

The topic is as Sky Dancer states so brilliantly and eloquently... The use of a qualifer like illegal or alien added to a immigrant (someone migrating) is disingenuous AND bad grammar. I have been prone to use it myself....

It is sort of like explaining to someone why "parital birth abortions" are really not births....

 

[WillowTree]

well, lessee here now..

a. they are here

b. they are here unlawfully (illegally)

c. this is an alien land to them


so


d. they are illegal aliens



not a thing disingenuious about that. it's calling a duck a duck

 

[catzmeow]

The topic is as Sky Dancer states so brilliantly and eloquently... The use of a qualifer like illegal or alien added to a immigrant (someone migrating) is disingenuous AND bad grammar. I have been prone to use it myself....

In what way do you believe that the adjective "illegal" is disingenuous given that it is used in the context of a person who is actively committing a felony offense in this country purely by being here?

Disingenuous..."you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

 

[catzmeow]

not a thing disingenuous about that. it's calling a duck a duck

The dictionary-disabled are such a tragedy. Perhaps this board would get behind a fund-raising campaign to provide some board members with a dictionary of their very own. Or, in lieu of that, there is always dictionary.com.

 

[WillowTree]

Wind/SkyDancer has difficulty avoiding the hitler fallacy. In practice, it seems that the first person to bring up hitler or the nazis on a discussion forum is acknowledging defeat.

In most debates around the world the first person who brings up Hitler or Nazi. is an automatic loser!! Good rule of thumb.

 

[catzmeow]

Ironically that gas used on Jews in concentration camps, was first tested on Mexicans in the USA....did you not know this? ...it was used to "clean" their clothes.

One fact in favor of the average Mexican...they are cleaner and more hard-working than most hippies. Perhaps we should ship our hippies to Mexico, in return for hard-working gardeners.

 

[catzmeow]

The topic is as Sky Dancer states so brilliantly and eloquently...

Wind? Zat you?

 

[WillowTree]

The dictionary-disabled are such a tragedy. Perhaps this board would get behind a fund-raising campaign to provide some board members with a dictionary of their very own. Or, in lieu of that, there is always dictionary.com.

It's not that. It's the fact that in lieu of a rational argument they prefer slapping down the "politically correct" card, which is exactly what the cowardly judge did. Amen!

 

[Grismonda]

In what way do you believe that the adjective "illegal" is disingenuous given that it is used in the context of a person who is actively committing a felony offense in this country purely by being here?

Disingenuous..."you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

The US Constitution was by Americans, for Americans. It is indeed exclusionary and was indeed meant to be so. That is not to say the ideals behind those rights is exclusive to Americans but rather that the specific protections afforded by the Consitution are exclusive. The Constitution of the United States is often thought of as an agreement between We the People and the Government. It is not! It is an agreement amongst We the People as to the nature of the government they will accept. The Government is not a party to that agreement, it is the result of that agreement. Some simple reflection on the nature of the agreement clearly demonstrates that it was intended to be exclusive to Americans.

So, a non citizen can only be deported, not be tried as a felon for residing here undocumented.

 

[catzmeow]

So, a non citizen can only be deported, not be tried as a felon for residing here undocumented.

You're mistaken, my dear. A non-citizen can be deported for the FELONY CRIME of residing here illegally, but they can indeed be tried as a felon for RETURNING, and will serve time in a federal facility for aggravated re-entry. Furthermore, they are taken into custody AS A FELON, for their first immigration violation, and remain in U.S. custody, AS A FELON, until they are deported, AS A FELON. Thus, they are "illegal" - in violation of U.S. law, by definition, from the day they arrive.

 

[WillowTree]

The US Constitution was by Americans, for Americans. It is indeed exclusionary and was indeed meant to be so. That is not to say the ideals behind those rights is exclusive to Americans but rather that the specific protections afforded by the Consitution are exclusive. The Constitution of the United States is often thought of as an agreement between We the People and the Government. It is not! It is an agreement amongst We the People as to the nature of the government they will accept. The Government is not a party to that agreement, it is the result of that agreement. Some simple reflection on the nature of the agreement clearly demonstrates that it was intended to be exclusive to Americans.

So, a non citizen can only be deported, not be tried as a felon for residing here undocumented.

it's not a felony to be here illegally it is a misdemeanor. to steal identify and defraud the government is a felony..

 

[Grismonda]

You're mistaken, my dear. A non-citizen can be deported for the FELONY CRIME of residing here illegally, but they can indeed be tried as a felon for RETURNING, and will serve time in a federal facility for aggravated re-entry. Furthermore, they are taken into custody AS A FELON, for their first immigration violation, and remain in U.S. custody, AS A FELON, until they are deported, AS A FELON. Thus, they are "illegal" - in violation of U.S. law, by definition, from the day they arrive.

IT IS NOT A FELONY CRIME TO RESIDE HERE "UNDOCUMENTED"!


Now I am not interested in any further discourse with you, until you study the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights...which apply ONLY to citizens.

 

[catzmeow]

Here is a bit more on the detention/incarceration of illegal immigrants:

Cantor lauds plan to deport incarcerated illegal immigrants | Culpeper Star-Exponent

Here's some more:

Investors Business Daily reported in March 2005:

"The U.S. Justice Department estimated that 270,000 illegal immigrants served jail time nationally in 2003. Of those, 108,000 were in California. Some estimates show illegals now make up half of California's prison population, creating a massive criminal subculture that strains state budgets and creates a nightmare for local police forces."

Bloomberg.com: U.S.

And, a bit more:

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1284221.html

 

[WillowTree]

IT IS NOT A FELONY CRIME TO RESIDE HERE "UNDOCUMENTED"!


Now I am not interested in any further discourse with you, until you study the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights...which apply ONLY to citizens.

Could you please furnish a list of all the countries in the world who have constitutions that apply to the worlds population and not just to the citizens of that country? I am very interested in seeing just how uniques the constitution of the US is as compared to other countries. Thanks.

 

[Sunni Man]

Now I am not interested in any further discourse with you, until you study the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights...which apply ONLY to citizens.

So I take it that you are some kind of self proclaimed Constitutional authority??

 

[catzmeow]

IT IS NOT A FELONY CRIME TO RESIDE HERE "UNDOCUMENTED"!


Now I am not interested in any further discourse with you, until you study the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights...which apply ONLY to citizens.

Such laws are not codified in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. These kinds of laws are passed by congress, and signed into law by the President of the U.S. Surely you learned this in basic civics classes. Here is the statute in question:

TITLE 8--ALIENS AND NATIONALITY

CHAPTER 12--IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY

SUBCHAPTER II--IMMIGRATION

Part VIII--General Penalty Provisions

Sec. 1325. Improper entry by alien


(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection;
misrepresentation and concealment of facts

Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at
any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or
(2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3)
attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully
false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a
material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be
fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and,
for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title
18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

(b) Improper time or place; civil penalties

Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to enter)
the United States at a time or place other than as designated by
immigration officers shall be subject to a civil penalty of--
(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or
attempted entry); or
(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of
an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under
this subsection.

Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not in
lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be imposed.

(c) Marriage fraud

Any individual who knowingly enters into a marriage for the purpose
of evading any provision of the immigration laws shall be imprisoned for
not more than 5 years, or fined not more than $250,000, or both.

(d) Immigration-related entrepreneurship fraud

Any individual who knowingly establishes a commercial enterprise for
the purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws shall be
imprisoned for not more than 5 years, fined in accordance with title 18,
or both.

(June 27, 1952, ch. 477, title II, ch. 8, Sec. 275, 66 Stat. 229; Pub.
L. 99-639, Sec. 2(d), Nov. 10, 1986, 100 Stat. 3542; Pub. L. 101-649,
title I, Sec. 121(b)(3), title V, Sec. 543(b)(2), Nov. 29, 1990, 104
Stat. 4994, 5059; Pub. L. 102-232, title III, Sec. 306(c)(3), Dec. 12,
1991, 105 Stat. 1752; Pub. L. 104-208, div. C, title I, Sec. 105(a),
Sept. 30, 1996, 110 Stat. 3009-556.)


Amendments

1996--Subsecs. (b) to (d). Pub. L. 104-208 added subsec. (b) and
redesignated former subsecs. (b) and (c) as (c) and (d), respectively.
1991--Subsec. (a). Pub. L. 102-232 substituted ``fined under title
18'' for ``fined not more than $2,000 (or, if greater, the amount
provided under title 18)''.
1990--Subsec. (a). Pub. L. 101-649, Sec. 543(b)(2), inserted ``or
attempts to enter'' after ``(1) enters'' and ``attempts to enter or''
after ``or (3)'', and substituted ``shall, for the first commission of
any such offense, be fined not more than $2,000 (or, if greater, the
amount provided under title 18) or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or
both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined
under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years'' for ``shall, for
the first commission of any such offenses, be guilty of a misdemeanor
and upon conviction thereof be punished by imprisonment for not more
than six months, or by a fine of not more than $500, or by both, and for
a subsequent commission of any such offenses shall be guilty of a felony
and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by imprisonment for not
more than two years, or by a fine of not more than $1,000''.
Subsec. (c). Pub. L. 101-649, Sec. 121(b)(3), added subsec. (c).
1986--Pub. L. 99-639 designated existing provisions as subsec. (a)
and added subsec. (b).


Effective Date of 1996 Amendment

Section 105(b) of div. C of Pub. L. 104-208 provided that: ``The
amendments made by subsection (a) [amending this section] shall apply to
illegal entries or attempts to enter occurring on or after the first day
of the sixth month beginning after the date of the enactment of this Act
[Sept. 30, 1996].''


Effective Date of 1991 Amendment

Amendment by Pub. L. 102-232 effective as if included in the
enactment of the Immigration Act of 1990, Pub. L. 101-649, see section
310(1) of Pub. L. 102-232, set out as a note under section 1101 of this
title.


Effective Date of 1990 Amendment

Amendment by section 121(b)(3) of Pub. L. 101-649 effective Oct. 1,
1991, and applicable beginning with fiscal year 1992, see section 161(a)
of Pub. L. 101-649, set out as a note under section 1101 of this title.
Amendment by section 543(b)(2) of Pub. L. 101-649 applicable to
actions taken after Nov. 29, 1990, see section 543(c) of Pub. L. 101-
649, set out as a note under section 1221 of this title.

Abolition of Immigration and Naturalization Service and Transfer of
Functions

For abolition of Immigration and Naturalization Service, transfer of
functions, and treatment of related references, see note set out under
section 1551 of this title.

Section Referred to in Other Sections

This section is referred to in sections 1101, 1225, 1329, 1330 of
this title; title 10 section 374.

§ 1325. —  Improper entry by alien. - US § 1325. —  Improper entry by alien. - US Code :: Justia

Illegal entry - misdemeanor offense.
Residing here illegally and working - FELONY offense.
Re-entering after deportation - FELONY offense.

Quite clearly you have no idea what you are talking about, Grismonda.

 

[Grismonda]

Could you please furnish a list of all the countries in the world who have constitutions that apply to the worlds population and not just to the citizens of that country? I am very interested in seeing just how uniques the constitution of the US is as compared to other countries. Thanks.

Willow, just google "constitutions applicable to the world". Not sure what you will find, but maybe you will get lucky.

Start with the Geneva Convention....but this document doesn't apply to undocumented workers in the USA.

 

[catzmeow]

it's not a felony to be here illegally it is a misdemeanor. to steal identify and defraud the government is a felony..

You are correct, I misspoke.

 

[Grismonda]

Such laws are not codified in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. These kinds of laws are passed by congress, and signed into law by the President of the U.S. Surely you learned this in basic civics classes. Here is the statute in question:



§ 1325. — Improper entry by alien. - US § 1325. — Improper entry by alien. - US Code :: Justia

Illegal entry - misdemeanor offense.
Residing here illegally and working - FELONY offense.
Re-entering after deportation - FELONY offense.

Quite clearly you have no idea what you are talking about, Grismonda.

The US Constitution and Bill of Rights supercedes any law Congress choses to pass.... Sorry..I know this sucks for you, but it just does.

This is why these laws are not enforced...they can't be....because A) the defendant has to have rights, which he does not have while in the USA... This is why an undocumented worker is either A) allowed to remain working in the USA or deported...

Remember Elvira? She was deported, not arrested and tried as a felon...

 

[WillowTree]

Willow, just google "constitutions applicable to the world". Not sure what you will find, but maybe you will get lucky.

Start with the Geneva Convention....but this document doesn't apply to undocumented workers in the USA.

thought so!