Judaism and zionism are extreme opposites

[Indeependent]

You can't even use google and you are on here daily. That explains a lot in itself.

nuteri karta - Google Search

I love this paragraph...
"However, despite the media blackout and easy resort to terror the simple truth remains unrefuted and irrefutable: ACCORDING TO THE JEWISH FAITH AND TORAH LAW THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE FORBIDDEN TO HAVE THEIR OWN STATE WHILE AWAITING THE MESSIANIC ERA!"
And not one quote or Link.
Because they're full of shit.

 

[Roudy]

You can't even use google and you are on here daily. That explains a lot in itself.

nuteri karta - Google Search

For some reason Google spelled niturei different on my Google Chrome.

Judaism is not Zionism
Too bad this page on their site is not based on any Torah or Talmudic statements.
Which is why they provide zero Link to any Torah, Talmudic or Rabbinical literature on the topic.
Once again, you have provided zero Jewish authoritative law to back up your agenda.

No way to seperate Zionism from the Torah.

Religious Jews believe that "Eretz Yisrael" (the Land of Israel) was promised to the ancient Israelites by God, and the right of the Jews to the land is permanent and inalienable. To generations of diaspora Jews, Jerusalem has been a symbol of the Holy Land and of their return to it, as promised by God in numerous Biblical prophecies. Rabbi Kook's theological answer gave Zionism a religious legitimation: "Zionism was not merely a political movement by secular Jews. It was actually a tool of God to promote His divine scheme, and to initiate the return of the Jews to their homeland – the land He promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. God wants the children of Israel to return to their home in order to establish a Jewish sovereign state in which Jews could live according to the laws of Torah and Halakha, and commit the Mitzvot of Eretz Israel (these are religious commandments which can be performed only in the Land of Israel). Moreover, to cultivate the Land of Israel was a Mitzvah by itself, and it should be carried out. Therefore, settling Israelis an obligation of the religious Jews, and helping Zionism is actually following God's will."[3]


Bnei Akiva youth movement, combining Torah and work
The first rabbis to support Zionism were Yehuda Shlomo Alkalai and Zvi Hirsch Kalischer. They argued that the change in the status of Western Europe's Jews following emancipation was the first step toward redemption (גאולה), and that, therefore, one must hasten the messianic salvation by a natural salvation – whose main pillars are the Kibbutz Galuyot ("Gathering of the Exiles"), the return to Eretz Israel, agricultural work (עבודת אדמה), and the revival of the everyday use of the Hebrew language.

The Mizrachi organization was established in 1902 in Vilna at a world conference of Religious Zionists. It operates a youth movement, Bnei Akiva, which was founded in 1929. Mizrachi believes that the Torah should be at the centre of Zionism, a sentiment expressed in the Mizrachi Zionist slogan Am Yisrael B'Eretz Yisrael al pi Torat Yisrael ("The people of Israel in the land of Israel according to the Torah of Israel"). It also sees Jewish nationalism as a tool for achieving religious objectives. Mizrachi was the first official Religious Zionist party. It also built a network of religious schools that exist to this day.

In 1937-1948, the Religious Kibbutz Movement established three settlement blocs of three kibbutzim each. The first was in the Beit Shean Valley, the second was in the Hebron mountains south of Bethlehem (known as Gush Etzion), and the third was in the western Negev. Kibbutz Yavne was founded in the center of the country as the core of a fourth bloc that came into being after the establishment of the state.[4]

 

[Roudy]

Zionism and the Formation of the State of Israel
The Jewish people never gave up hope that we would someday return to our home in Israel. That hope is expressed in the song Ha-Tikvah (The Hope), the anthem of the Zionist movement and the state of Israel.

Kol od baleivav p'nima
Nefesh Y'hudi homiya
Ul'fa-atey mizrach kadima
Ayin L'Tziyon tzofiya
Od lo avda tikvateynu
Hatikva bat sh'not alpayim
Lih'yot am chofshi b'artzenu
Eretz Tziyon v'yirushalayim.
Lih'yot am chofshi b'artzenu
Eretz Tziyon v'yirushalayim.

As long as deep within the heart
The Jewish soul is warm
And toward the edges of the east
An eye to Zion looks
Our hope is not yet lost,
The hope of two thousand years
To be a free people in our own land
In the land of Zion and Jerusalem.
To be a free people in our own land
In the land of Zion and Jerusalem.

But for a long time, this desire for our homeland was merely a vague hope without any concrete plans to achieve it. In the late 1800s, Theodor Herzl and Chaim Weizmann founded Zionism, a political movement dedicated to the creation of a Jewish state. They saw a state of Israel as a necessary refuge for Jewish victims of oppression, where pogroms were decimating the Jewish population.

The name "Zionism" comes from the word "Zion," which was the name of a stronghold in Jerusalem. Over time, the term "Zion" came to be applied to Jerusalem in general, and later to the Jewish idea of utopia.

 

[Roudy]

You can't even use google and you are on here daily. That explains a lot in itself.

nuteri karta - Google Search

Didn't read that link of your own either --- didya? Answer the questions..

Uhhhhh, this did not clear up your confusion?

We hope and pray for a quick and peaceful dismantling of the Zionist state. We hope to live together in peace in the Holy Land under a Palestinian rulership of the entire land.
Judaism rejects the Zionist state

Again does anybody care what these nutjobs think? No! Certainly not 99.9% of the world's Jews.

 

[Roudy]

You lie all the time Loo Loo. This whole thread is a fraud.

Yet, in the now 23 pages you have disputed none of it with any facts at all.

Well, here are some facts vs your NK garbage.

Judaism 101: The Land of Israel
The Promised Land

The history of the Jewish people begins with Abraham, and the story of Abraham begins when G-d tells him to leave his homeland, promising Abraham and his descendants a new home in the land of Canaan. (Gen. 12). This is the land now known as Israel, named after Abraham's grandson, whose descendants are the Jewish people. The land is often referred to as the Promised Land because of G-d's repeated promise (Gen. 12:7, 13:15, 15:18, 17:8) to give the land to the descendants of Abraham.

The land is described repeatedly in the Torah as a good land and "a land flowing with milk and honey" (e.g., Ex. 3:8). This description may not seem to fit well with the desert images we see on the nightly news, but let's keep in mind that the land was repeatedly abused by conquerors who were determined to make the land uninhabitable for the Jews. In the few decades since the Jewish people regained control of the land, we have seen a tremendous improvement in its agriculture. Israeli agriculture today has a very high yield.

Jews have lived in this land continuously from the time of its original conquest by Joshua more than 3200 years ago until the present day, though Jews were not always in political control of the land, and Jews were not always the majority of the land's population.

The land of Israel is central to Judaism. A substantial portion of Jewish law is tied to the land of Israel, and can only be performed there. Some rabbis have declared that it is a mitzvah (commandment) to take possession of Israel and to live in it (relying on Num. 33:53). The Talmud indicates that the land itself is so holy that merely walking in it can gain you a place in the World to Come. Prayers for a return to Israel and Jerusalem are included in daily prayers as well as many holiday observances and special events.

Living outside of Israel is viewed as an unnatural state for a Jew. The world outside of Israel is often referred to as "galut," which is usually translated as "diaspora" (dispersion), but a more literal translation would be "exile" or "captivity." When we live outside of Israel, we are living in exile from our land.

 

[flacaltenn]

Got to add another unanswerable question to Louie here. I don't expect an answer.

You've ridiculed the notion that Jews can just return to and stake a claim in the Holy Land because "God willed it". You've done several threads with this theme. Supposedly -- it's so easy a child can see it.

My question is -- how come in THIS THREAD -- and in your Sigline --- you're pushing a radical, small, extremely naive group of Messianic Jews that's waiting for God to tell them to return and stake a claim in the Holy Land..

Makes my head spin. How many sides of that argument are you on Louie? You think if God tells NK to return to Zion -- they have a RIGHT to do that? Or not?

Won't get an answer. Pretty sure.

 

[louie888]

Got to add another unanswerable question to Louie here. I don't expect an answer.

Based on what you tell me, I must respond to you, straw man arguments be damned. So, here we go...

You've ridiculed the notion that Jews can just return to and stake a claim in the Holy Land because "God willed it".

Use the quote function as I can't respond to what you claim I said.

You've done several threads with this theme. Supposedly -- it's so easy a child can see it.

It is easy even for a young child to know that thieving and murder is wrong and to stay on topic... THE TORAH IS CLEAR HERE!

My question is -- how come in THIS THREAD -- and in your Sigline --- you're pushing a radical, small, extremely naive group of Messianic Jews that's waiting for God to tell them to return and stake a claim in the Holy Land..

I am not doing that. I am explaining how Judaism and zionism are extreme opposites. It comes down to the question THAT YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER. I would be glad to start a thread with this simple question, but you'll probably freak out about that too.

SHOW ME ANY OF OUR RABBIS OR SAGES, PRIOR TO ZIONISM THAT EVEN SUGGESTED TAKING THE HOLY LAND BY FORCE!

If you know 1/2 of what you pretend to know, you already KNOW that you can't.

Makes my head spin. How many sides of that argument are you on Louie? You think if God tells NK to return to Zion -- they have a RIGHT to do that? Or not?

You have again created a straw man to argue with while pretending to argue with me. Use the quote function!

If Judaism is correct, then when G-d feels like we have satisfied our covenant, He, and He alone will return us - IN PEACE - TO OUR PROMISED LAND. He will not have his chosen people, lying, stealing, let alone murdering his children that have darker skin and believe in an evolved belief systems from Judaism, be that Christianity or Islam. This is not about NK, it is about traditional Judaism for 1000s of years!

Answer the question and see this for yourself.

 

[flacaltenn]

I am not doing that. I am explaining how Judaism and zionism are extreme opposites.

Of course you've argued this both ways. Wrong to return and take land just because God tells you to return. But for NK it's totally OK to returni and claim space in the Holy Land because God WILL tell them to.. How do you suppose all the Jews are gonna fit in Israel if God tells them to return under NK's terms?

Does NK have a plan for governing? For defending themselves against Hamas, ISIS, and other threats? When they post that plan --- you let us know. OK??

 

[louie888]

Of course you've argued this both ways. Wrong to return and take land just because God tells you to return. But for NK it's totally OK to returni and claim space in the Holy Land because God WILL tell them to.. How do you suppose all the Jews are gonna fit in Israel if God tells them to return under NK's terms?

Straw man, I never said that (use the quote function) and you still did not answer THE question.

Does NK have a plan for governing? For defending themselves against Hamas, ISIS, and other threats? When they post that plan --- you let us know. OK??

What topic is this and this might get deleted for reposting, but I just explained...

If Judaism is correct, then when G-d feels like we have satisfied our covenant, He, and He alone will return us - IN PEACE - TO OUR PROMISED LAND. He will not have his chosen people, lying, stealing, let alone murdering his children that have darker skin and believe in an evolved belief systems from Judaism, be that Christianity or Islam. This is not about NK, it is about traditional Judaism for 1000s of years!

 

[flacaltenn]

Of course you've argued this both ways. Wrong to return and take land just because God tells you to return. But for NK it's totally OK to returni and claim space in the Holy Land because God WILL tell them to.. How do you suppose all the Jews are gonna fit in Israel if God tells them to return under NK's terms?

Straw man, I never said that (use the quote function) and you still did not answer THE question.

Does NK have a plan for governing? For defending themselves against Hamas, ISIS, and other threats? When they post that plan --- you let us know. OK??

What topic is this and this might get deleted for reposting, but I just explained...

If Judaism is correct, then when G-d feels like we have satisfied our covenant, He, and He alone will return us - IN PEACE - TO OUR PROMISED LAND. He will not have his chosen people, lying, stealing, let alone murdering his children that have darker skin and believe in an evolved belief systems from Judaism, be that Christianity or Islam. This is not about NK, it is about traditional Judaism for 1000s of years!

so now after 20 pages of QUOTING NK and showing pics of NK -- it's no longer about NK.. Got it..

 

[louie888]

so now after 20 pages of QUOTING NK and showing pics of NK -- it's no longer about NK.. Got it..

Good.

You must now understand that this is about how traditional judaism for 1000s of years is the antithesis of zionism and their lying, thieving and murder.

 

[flacaltenn]

so now after 20 pages of QUOTING NK and showing pics of NK -- it's no longer about NK.. Got it..

Good.

You must now understand that this is about how traditional judaism for 1000s of years is the antithesis of zionism and their lying, thieving and murder.

Your new statement is MORE bogus than your old one. This is not an improvement.

 

[louie888]

Why can't you answer the question?

If you understood this topic, you would answer or admit that you cannot.

 

[louie888]

So Louie... I gotta ask at this point. DO YOU KNOW what a Theocracy is? Or as Indeependent pulled from their site -- what a "Torah Based Israel" would be like?

You think the Palestinians are totally down with a "Torah Based Israel"???

3 questions. Need 3 answers here.

Maybe, I was not clear.

1) Yes.

2) Inderpendent pulled nothing from their site. This might be a literacy issue on your part. He actually said, after I showed him how to use google, that he would return here after the sabbath, and after he actually reads their site.

Do you understand the difference?

3) If Judaism is correct, I think that if G-d returns us, then not only the Palestinians, but the entire world will be totally down.

As far as the "Torah Based Israel" shtick you seem to be stuck on, I am assuming that you have confused the Jews at Neturei Karta, literally "Guardians of the City," with the white supremacist psychopaths at Chabad/Lubavitch.

As explained, Neturei Karta argues for a peaceful dismantling of the zionist regime that would culminate in a one state democracy in Palestine.

 

[flacaltenn]

So Louie... I gotta ask at this point. DO YOU KNOW what a Theocracy is? Or as Indeependent pulled from their site -- what a "Torah Based Israel" would be like?

You think the Palestinians are totally down with a "Torah Based Israel"???

3 questions. Need 3 answers here.

Maybe, I was not clear.

1) Yes.

2) Inderpendent pulled nothing from their site. This might be a literacy issue on your part. He actually said, after I showed him how to use google, that he would return here after the sabbath, and after he actually reads their site.

Do you understand the difference?

3) If Judaism is correct, I think that if G-d returns us, then not only the Palestinians, but the entire world will be totally down.

As far as the "Torah Based Israel" shtick you seem to be stuck on, I am assuming that you have confused the Jews at Neturei Karta, literally "Guardians of the City," with the white supremacist psychopaths at Chabad/Lubavitch.

As explained, Neturei Karta argues for a peaceful dismantling of the zionist regime that would culminate in a one state democracy in Palestine.

Close tools of Iran. Condemned Dead Jews in terrorists acts by Islamic Radicals in Africa as DESERVING it for supporting Zionism. Naive enough to believe that their presence in a Muslim Koran run Palestine would be safe and peaceful. They're despicable people. For giving cover to Ayatollahs and Louis Farrakan and other deplorables.

THAT's what is in the Wiki. Along with this. Where they IDENTIFY AS A THEOCRACY in choosing of their name.

The name Neturei Karta literally means "Guardians of the City" in Aramaic and is derived from a narrative on page 76c of Tractate Hagigah in the Jerusalem Talmud. There it is related that Rabbi Judah haNasi sent two rabbis on a tour of inspection:

In one town they asked to see the "guardians of the city" and the city guard was paraded before them. They said that these were not the guardians of the city but its destroyers, which prompted the citizens to ask who, then, could be considered the guardians. The rabbis answered, "The scribes and the scholars," referring them to Tehillim (Psalms) Chapter 127.[6]

You LIKE the concept of Theocracies Louie? Even one's designed by the most NAIVE and UN-secular group of people on the Planet?

 

[louie888]

You seem to be stuck on stupid here. Nowhere have they called for a theocracy. You are going to have to find that on their extensive site if you wish to keep promoting that idea.

I think you confuse the peaceful dismantling of the zionist regime that would culminate in a one state democracy in Palestine, which is what they actually say, with something you read on the internet.

 

[rylah]

SHOW ME ANY OF OUR RABBIS OR SAGES, PRIOR TO ZIONISM THAT EVEN SUGGESTED TAKING THE HOLY LAND BY FORCE!

.

I have. You ducked .post #704
But then again anything You say is EXTREMELY OPPOSITE to what Jewish tradition and law say.

It is FORBIDDEN to discourage the children of Israel from crossing over to their land.
It is FORBIDDEN to stand and look from aside while a part of Israel fights.

 

[Indeependent]

Got to add another unanswerable question to Louie here. I don't expect an answer.

Based on what you tell me, I must respond to you, straw man arguments be damned. So, here we go...

You've ridiculed the notion that Jews can just return to and stake a claim in the Holy Land because "God willed it".

Use the quote function as I can't respond to what you claim I said.

You've done several threads with this theme. Supposedly -- it's so easy a child can see it.

It is easy even for a young child to know that thieving and murder is wrong and to stay on topic... THE TORAH IS CLEAR HERE!

My question is -- how come in THIS THREAD -- and in your Sigline --- you're pushing a radical, small, extremely naive group of Messianic Jews that's waiting for God to tell them to return and stake a claim in the Holy Land..

I am not doing that. I am explaining how Judaism and zionism are extreme opposites. It comes down to the question THAT YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER. I would be glad to start a thread with this simple question, but you'll probably freak out about that too.

SHOW ME ANY OF OUR RABBIS OR SAGES, PRIOR TO ZIONISM THAT EVEN SUGGESTED TAKING THE HOLY LAND BY FORCE!

If you know 1/2 of what you pretend to know, you already KNOW that you can't.

Makes my head spin. How many sides of that argument are you on Louie? You think if God tells NK to return to Zion -- they have a RIGHT to do that? Or not?

You have again created a straw man to argue with while pretending to argue with me. Use the quote function!

If Judaism is correct, then when G-d feels like we have satisfied our covenant, He, and He alone will return us - IN PEACE - TO OUR PROMISED LAND. He will not have his chosen people, lying, stealing, let alone murdering his children that have darker skin and believe in an evolved belief systems from Judaism, be that Christianity or Islam. This is not about NK, it is about traditional Judaism for 1000s of years!

Answer the question and see this for yourself.

Then why was Yehoshua commanded to exterminate the 7 nations of Canaan?