Jews don't need jesus: Apostasy in the chuch

[rtwngAvngr]

And I'm still going to wait for Avatar's answer.

I'm certain it will be very similar, but whatever floats your rubber ducky.

 

[Abbey Normal]

Question for discussion: Will the Catholic Church every get past succumbing to guilt-induced behavior?

 

[Dr Grump]

Beliefs are either true or they arent. They arent more true for someone than someone else. The truth is universal. Otherwise it wouldnt be the truth.

So let me get this straight. Are you saying that if a Jew believes what they believe to be the truth, and a Christian believes what they believe to be the truth, only the Christian truth is "real" because it is universal?

 

[5stringJeff]

So let me get this straight. Are you saying that if a Jew believes what they believe to be the truth, and a Christian believes what they believe to be the truth, only the Christian truth is "real" because it is universal?

Well, since the two positions (Jews: salvation through God's favor/Mosiac law; Christians: salvation only through faith in Jesus Christ) are contradictory, then they can't both be true. At most, only one can be true. Christian doctrine (surprise, surprise) maintains that faith in Jesus Christ is the path to salvation.

 

[jillian]

Well, since the two positions (Jews: salvation through God's favor/Mosiac law; Christians: salvation only through faith in Jesus Christ) are contradictory, then they can't both be true. At most, only one can be true. Christian doctrine (surprise, surprise) maintains that faith in Jesus Christ is the path to salvation.

Jews believe salvation is based on actions and that a loving creator would never discriminate against his creations if they were doing good. But I'm not sure that was what Grump was asking. I think that Jews are much more likely to think there are more paths to salvation than one.

Also, there isn't any real concept of hell in Judaism, so no one Jewish would ever think someone is going to be damned for eternity simply because of a different belief system.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Jews believe salvation is based on actions and that a loving creator would never discriminate against his creations if they were doing good. But I'm not sure that was what Grump was asking. I think that Jews are much more likely to think there are more paths to salvation than one.

Also, there isn't any real concept of hell in Judaism, so no one Jewish would ever think someone is going to be damned for eternity simply because of a different belief system.

so jews have no problems with pantheism or various forms of idolatry?

 

[Abbey Normal]

so jews have no problems with pantheism or various forms of idolatry?

Let's see what we have here:

Moral relativism

If it feels good

Don't judge me

My morals are mine

Shades of gray

Never mind all of the lessons and warning in the Bible; God wouldn't hurt a fly.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Let's see what we have here:

Moral relativism

If it feels good

Don't judge me

My morals are mine

Shade of gray

Never mind all of the lessons and warning in the Bible; God wouldn't hurt a fly.

That fourty years in the desert, repeatedly being taught the same message, still didn't take. I guess god was just kidding about that Golden Calf stuff.

 

[Avatar4321]

And what is the apostasy in Christianity?

You want specific instances? The liberal versions of Christianity allowing gay marriage for instance is an example of Apostasy in Christianity. The fact that we don't have a unified faith is an example of Apostasy in Christianity.

Ive been reading in alot of scholastic articles how we are entering into a Post-Christian era of secularism. This is an example of an Apostasy from Christianity to secularism.

I am just telling you whats I see going on in society. If i had time and desire i could probably show evidence of historic apostasy. But I am pretty busy with work and my computer time is limited until I can replace my laptop.

But all I do know is Paul prophecies that the Second Coming would not occur until there was a falling away.

 

[Avatar4321]

So let me get this straight. Are you saying that if a Jew believes what they believe to be the truth, and a Christian believes what they believe to be the truth, only the Christian truth is "real" because it is universal?

No, Im saying that the truth remains the same, as an anchor to those who seek it regardless of whether a christian or jew or muslim or buddhist or whatever believes it or not.

You can find must truth in Judaism because it evolved from the same source Christianity came from. All religions have some truth, but you will only find the full extent of it without pure Christianity.

 

[Abbey Normal]

That fourty years in the desert, repeatedly being taught the same message, still didn't take. I guess god was just kidding about that Golden Calf stuff.

Moral Relativism
Confronting the Challenge of Ethical Relativism

by Douglas Groothuis
Philosophical Problems With Moral Relativism

Part Two in a Three-Part Series on Liberation Theology, from the Witnessing Tips column of the Christian Research Journal, Summer 1991, page 7. The Editor-in-Chief of the Christian Research Journal is Elliot Miller.

An indispensable pillar of Christian truth is the proposition that God is the lawgiver and moral governor of the universe. God is a personal and moral being, unlike the impersonal and amoral Force of New Age imagination. What is good, right, and virtuous is grounded in the triune God of the Bible. Jesus said, "Be holy as the Father in heaven is holy" (Matt. 5:48).

Because the all-knowing and eternal God is the source and standard of ethics, the moral law is universal, absolute, and objective; it is based on His unchanging, holy character. Although the application of unchanging moral principles may change throughout history, the principles themselves are perpetually binding and irrevocable. God isn't morally moody.

Given this eternal anchorage for ethics, sin must be seen as the transgression of God's law. John says that "sin is lawlessness" (1 John 3:4). David cries out to God and says, "Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight" (Ps. 51:4). Sin is an offense against God, ourselves, and others. R. C. Sproul calls it "cosmic treason"; we rebel against our creator and "do our own thing."

In the modern Western world, ethical relativism poses a challenge to the biblical basis for ethics. Relativism affirms that moral right and wrong are only socially and individually determined. Ethics is split off from any objective moral order. Cultural norms of morality are relative to particular societies, individuals, and historical periods. What is "right for you" may not be "right for me." What is wrong today may not be wrong tomorrow. When the idea of moral law is held in disrespect, the notion of sin softens and then dissolves. If all is relative, absolute evil is impossible. If sin is nonsense, then the notion of a Savior from sin is absurd. There is nothing from which to be saved.

Because of its denial of abiding ethical standards and of sin against a holy God, relativism is a roadblock to effective evangelism -- besides undercutting values essential for a healthy society. But the key arguments for relativism are fatally flawed.

1. Relativists often argue that a society that honors free speech and freedom of religion must relinquish any notion of absolute truth or morality because this stifles the free exchange of ideas. Dogmatism and moralism are unwelcome in the pluralistic public square. Relativism is seen as required for a democracy of ideas and norms.

But this is flatly false. One may believe there are moral absolutes and also believe that the best way to reach ethical conclusions is through open discussion, dialogue, and debate. Freedom of religion and speech does not necessitate that there can be no objectively true religion or morality. A free society guarantees your right to be right -- and your right to be wrong! I can try to persuade you of the truth of my convictions without using coercion. In fact, I may take it as a moral absolute that I should not coerce those I believe to be absolutely wrong.

The relativist has abandoned the very concept of objective moral truth. It is all a matter of opinion because everything is relative. There is, therefore, nothing objective to argue about and no good reason to believe one thing over another. This is hardly what the American founders envisioned for a free society. It more resembles anarchism and nihilism (i.e., rejection of all values) than a "marketplace of ideas."

2. The sheer diversity of moral and religious ideas within and between societies is invoked as evidence for relativism. With so many options before us, who is to say what is true or false, right or wrong? We are left with relativism.

Here again, the facts do not deliver the conclusion. A diversity of ethical and religious beliefs hardly insures that they are all somehow true. A tribal culture may be scientifically wrong in thinking that the sun revolves around a flat earth. Why can't the same culture be ethically wrong for practicing head-hunting? If you say that abortion is right and I say it is wrong, how can we both be correct when we contradict each other? Ethical relativism eliminates the notion of a moral mistake. But this is just as fallacious as saying that every answer on a multiple-choice test is correct because there is a diversity of answers.

There may also be less diversity between cultures than is often thought. Every culture has taboos against stealing. Yet a desert culture may penalize the theft of water much more highly than would a tropical culture. The diversity of moral codes does not rule out a basic agreement on deeper ethical principles. In an appendix to his excellent book against relativism, The Abolition of Man, C. S. Lewis listed common moral principles spanning thousands of years from diverse religions and civilizations. As Paul tells us in Romans 1-2, God has endowed with a conscience all those created in His own image, however much we efface or neglect it.

Relativism also leads to absurd conclusions which undermine its credibility. If there is no true moral law that applies transculturally, then there is no basis for one culture to condemn actions in another. Surely any morally sane person must ethically condemn Nazi atrocities as evil and praise the heroes who resisted the Reich by saving Jews from extermination. But relativism cannot permit such judgments. The morality of everything is relative -- even genocide.

If we can reveal flaws in the case for relativism, we can further argue that the moral law is best understood as flowing from the moral lawgiver of the universe. God, as our Creator, knows what is best for us and calls us to obey Him for our own good and for His glory. Yet, as Paul said, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Rom. 6:23). The universal fact of guilt and shame testifies to that, whatever the cultural setting might be.

But the good news is that the Lawgiver is also the Redeemer of those who lament over their lawlessness and trust in Jesus Christ as their Savior. Those who cry out, "God, have mercy on me, a sinner" (Luke 18:13), can find mercy and eternal life. But the unrepentant relativist must face the absolute justice of a holy God who admits no interpretation other than His own. In the end everything is relative -- but it is relative to God's absolute standards, not ours.

[This article was revised and expanded as a chapter in the book, Christianity That Counts by Douglas Groothuis (Baker Books, 1995).]

Copyright 1995 by the Christian Research Institute.

http://www.inplainsite.org/assets/i...vism&start=20&ndsp=20&svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&sa=N

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Yep. And check out the bloody results of "religion free" communism.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM
In sum the communist probably have murdered something like 110,000,000, or near two-thirds of all those killed by all governments, quasi-governments, and guerrillas from 1900 to 1987. Of course, the world total itself it shocking. It is several times the 38,000,000 battle-dead that have been killed in all this century's international and domestic wars. Yet the probable number of murders by the Soviet Union alone--one communist country-- well surpasses this cost of war. And those murders of communist China almost equal it.

 

[5stringJeff]

You want specific instances? The liberal versions of Christianity allowing gay marriage for instance is an example of Apostasy in Christianity. The fact that we don't have a unified faith is an example of Apostasy in Christianity.

Ive been reading in alot of scholastic articles how we are entering into a Post-Christian era of secularism. This is an example of an Apostasy from Christianity to secularism.

I am just telling you whats I see going on in society. If i had time and desire i could probably show evidence of historic apostasy. But I am pretty busy with work and my computer time is limited until I can replace my laptop.

But all I do know is Paul prophecies that the Second Coming would not occur until there was a falling away.

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you meant that Christian doctrine as a whole was apostate.

 

[Abbey Normal]

Go Benedict!

 

[dmp]

But the unrepentant relativist must face the absolute justice of a holy God who admits no interpretation other than His own. In the end everything is relative -- but it is relative to God's absolute standards, not ours.

Fuckin' A...that's awesome

 

[Annie]

Go Benedict!

Well except the Jew thing, right?

 

[Abbey Normal]

Well except the Jew thing, right?

I think the OP article was dated 2002, which predates his papacy...

 

[Annie]

I think the OP article was dated 2002...

You are surely correct. So the doctrine was wrong and Benedict will overturn the wrong doctrine by JPII?

 

[Abbey Normal]

You are surely correct. So the doctrine was wrong and Benedict will overturn the wrong doctrine by JPII?

I'm not Catholic, so I don't know, but to my laywoman's eye, he does seem to be more of a traditionalist.

 

[Annie]

I'm not Catholic, so I don't know, but to my laywoman's eye, he does seem to be more of a traditionalist.

I'm sorry, I really thought you were Catholic. No problem.