Israel Rescues Another Hostage

[Coyote]

Perhaps I missed something, but could you clarify why you assume an "apartheid" system in this scenario? I mean, I essentially suggested the same and you declared you could get on board with it. What was different in what I said?

I’m responding in kind to what I perceive from a person who has already advocated ethnic cleansing and has no desire from what I can see to share space with Muslims.

“…The Palestinians who remain are likely tied to HAMAS via relatives and/or hate Jews…”. Remain from…what?

The idea of Israeli sovereignty is appealing to me, particularly if it can be pulled off in a way that provides equality, justice, respect, safety, security and opportunity to every one and people can be made to see this. If you can’t build this, you could end up creating an Aparthied type system even unintentially.

I’m curious to see your opinion here and whether you think these are or are not issues to you.

Opening up Gaza to Jewish settlement. Will it be just be an open gate, with people flooding in to claim what they can? Will priority be given to those already living there to reclaim their property or to develop Gaza? Or will they end up marginalized further? There are examples of this elsewhere in history and Israel has a desperate shortage of affordable housing.

Religion. Religion is huge. Gaza is more religiously conservative than West Bank and the settlers as a group who most want to “settle” Gaza, who have substantial political influence are more conservative than other Jewish groups. How will we get them to not just tolerate but accept on another as equal partners? The other side of the religion issue is this: countries that mix religion into government (as opposed to separation of church and state) do not have a good track record in regards to their minorities and the less secular the population, the more problematic. Look at Al Aqsa/Temple Mount.

Who will pay for this…it will take decades to clean up Gaza and rebuild what has been lost. There is a lack of will to invest in Arab populations within Israel from infrastructure to security to education and that divide has increased lately. International partners have their own concerns with investing.

Security. For everyone. Huge issue. And with it trust. Trust in the government to keep people safe, to deal with people fairly and equitably, and to do so without increasing divides such as checkpoints, barriers, limitations on movement.

Demographics. 2 million more people who are Muslim, in a state with a religious identity that is Jewish and Jews are a minority. Understandably those in a minority, particularly given decades of conflict, will be concerned. And there are examples elsewhere where the minority population was dominant (which was a deliberate strategy in many places under colonial rule) and when things flipped, either gradually or suddenly and violently they lost rights, property or were even killed or forced to flee. Likewise not giving the same rights to the others might continue the conditions that led to conflict.

There are plenty of countries where minority populations and majority populations live together without issue despite history but the key to success seems to forging a strong national identity that overcones tribal, ethnic and religious identities.

I think if things can be done thoughtfully and carefully it can work. But demographic governments are subject to the will of their people and may not be able to maintain the will.

 

[rylah]

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[Shusha]

I’m responding in kind to what I perceive from a person who has already advocated ethnic cleansing and has no desire from what I can see to share space with Muslims.

“…The Palestinians who remain are likely tied to HAMAS via relatives and/or hate Jews…”. Remain from…what?

I hear this.

The idea of Israeli sovereignty is appealing to me, particularly if it can be pulled off in a way that provides equality, justice, respect, safety, security and opportunity to every one and people can be made to see this.

I agree. And I suspect it is a shift for both of us recently as I'm fairly certain we have long been on the same page of "two recognized rights to self-determination and two state". But things change. In my mind, the only demonstrably successful integration (though imperfect) of Jews and Arabs in that land is under Israeli sovereignty. It may not be that way forever, but it appears to be this way now.

If you can’t build this, you could end up creating an Aparthied type system even unintentially.

I would like to respectfully request that we use terminology other than "apartheid" for this discussion, for reasons of trivializing and generalizing. I do not believe there can be an "unintentional" apartheid. Like genocide, apartheid requires intentionality.

My vision/understanding/suggestion does require equality, justice, respect, safety, security, and opportunity for everyone under the law and as much as possible under social standards. But not tomorrow. There will necessarily be a period of rebuilding, re-education, and a recognized need for security to be placed in the highest position. It is not a moral solution. It is a temporary practical solution. Initially, Gaza would be governed by Israel, but as a separate province.

Opening up Gaza to Jewish settlement. Will it be just be an open gate, with people flooding in to claim what they can? Will priority be given to those already living there to reclaim their property or to develop Gaza? Or will they end up marginalized further? There are examples of this elsewhere in history and Israel has a desperate shortage of affordable housing.

Jewish residency in Gaza would be a requirement. I can't see peace without a deep personal and close connection between Arabs and Jews. If Israel can have a 25% Arab population, Gaza can and should have a 25% Jewish population. Existing Arab residents of Gaza would reclaim their property.

Religion. Religion is huge. Gaza is more religiously conservative than West Bank and the settlers as a group who most want to “settle” Gaza, who have substantial political influence are more conservative than other Jewish groups. How will we get them to not just tolerate but accept on another as equal partners?

That is the million dollar question, isn't it? But it can be done. It IS done in Israel.

The other side of the religion issue is this: countries that mix religion into government (as opposed to separation of church and state) do not have a good track record in regards to their minorities and the less secular the population, the more problematic.

Agreed. So the solution would be that IF religion is mixed into government, then it would have to acknowledge both religions. I have no idea how that would work. We'd have to drill down into what we are actually talking about when we say "mix religion into government".

Look at Al Aqsa/Temple Mount.

Yep. For me, this is the most contentious issue by far. First, we need the entire Muslim world to acknowledge and respect Jewish religious and historical claim to that place. Not just a shared claim, but the original claim. Then we need the Jewish world to accept the shared claim. Everyone must have shared and equal access, whether meaning shared space, shared time, or both. However, we might have to baby step this as well. Which means a temporary practical solution pending a slow and gradual change to a moral one.

Who will pay for this…it will take decades to clean up Gaza and rebuild what has been lost. There is a lack of will to invest in Arab populations within Israel from infrastructure to security to education and that divide has increased lately. International partners have their own concerns with investing.

Iran?

I'm assuming an international effort.

Security. For everyone. Huge issue. And with it trust. Trust in the government to keep people safe, to deal with people fairly and equitably, and to do so without increasing divides such as checkpoints, barriers, limitations on movement.

Trust will be a long, slow build. But if we can prevent the importation of weapons into Gaza, then terrorism can be reduced or eliminated from a practical standpoint.

Demographics. 2 million more people who are Muslim, in a state with a religious identity that is Jewish and Jews are a minority. Understandably those in a minority, particularly given decades of conflict, will be concerned.

Gaza doesn't tip the demographics. Especially as a separately governed province. I think what you are asking is how does Israel preserve its Jewish identity if/when Jews are no longer the majority. Which, to me, is asking which set of moral values takes precedence when there are two competing sets of moral values? Tough question.

There are plenty of countries where minority populations and majority populations live together without issue despite history but the key to success seems to forging a strong national identity that overcones tribal, ethnic and religious identities.

Agreed.

 

[Matted Joybeard]

Its not going to be easy. It can't be instantaneous and all-encompassing. It would have to be a process of integration. Maybe some sort of provincial system with mixed local government and federal government? Israel ensures external and internal security and administrates education, medical care, basic infrastructure. Israel collects taxes and then redistributes those taxes based on the needs of the Province of Gaza. Israel encourages economic stability and good trade partnerships. Give it 50 years or so of prosperity and economic growth and eventually Gaza is just part of Israel. Or, if there emerges a strong desire for independence, a peaceful referendum.

Up to the West Bank. They can skip the horrible commission of atrocities and the resulting war and go straight to the peaceful referendum part of the equation. Or not.

What rights would they have and what limits would would be placed upon them? Doubling the Palestinian population of Israel while annexing Gaza seems like it would be politically wild to say the least.

 

[daveman]

For Palestinians it is a cesspit, restricted water, limited housing options etc. Note how these illegal Jewish settlements are solely for occupancy by Jews. Yes that kind of racist apartheid society needs to be wiped off the map as we did with the Third Reich.

It is neither racist nor apartheid. And you're just a piece of shit proto-Nazi.

 

[daveman]

Do others approve of Lisa's deceit? will nobody condemn her for her false accusation? Like "antisemite" the Zionist feels entitled to accuse anyone of anything and fellow Zionists just sit and watch. This is what people condemn the state of Israel for, the same lies, the same eagerness to accuse, the same insincerity and lack of integrity shown by Lisa here.

You are a liar woman, there is no post from me in which I "praised the Third Reich for having the right idea" and you know it, deranged nationalist battleaxe. There should be a word for falsely accusing a person of being an antisemite that rule should be enforced with as much fervor as antisemitic laws are enforced.

Oh, eat shit, you whiny little turd.

 

[daveman]

Another perverse and hateful post that distorts reality, from our resident ultrasemite.

Oh, just say what you want to say. Use the worst insult you know:

"Damn filthy Jew."

 

[daveman]

Um. You DO realize that ALL of Gaza and ALL of the Arab-controlled West Bank is deliberately and legally Jew-free, yes?

And he's perfectly fine with that. He wants the same thing for all of Israel.

 

[daveman]

Just as the Israelis have thwarted an independent probe into the claims of rape by Hamas, no doubt they'll thwart this probe too:

View attachment 1005822

The Zionist regime lies, all the time it lies, it lied about baby's being beheaded, it lied about rape and it no doubt is lying about the hostages being killed by Hamas.

I'd be reticent to say these things but for the fact the Israelis are and do thwart independent verification, if any other state was acting like this they'd be bombed like Iraq was.

^ supports rape and murder of Jews

 

[daveman]

This is so easy to find, do you not know how to use a search engine?

Israel’s occupation of Palestinian Territory is ‘apartheid’: UN rights expert

Calling on the international community to accept and adopt the recent findings in his report, an independent human rights expert said on Friday that “apartheid is being practiced by Israel in the occupied Palestinian territory”.

news.un.org

https://www.btselem.org/topic/apartheid

If you need more just ask.

The UN? Oh, you mean the organization that had a group set up to help Gazans...by engaging in terror operations against Israel.

Naturally, a Jew-hating retard like you would believe the UN is credible.

What's your Stormfront username?

 

[daveman]

Yes I know you were replying to her, I'm speaking to you, Israel is an apartheid state, a racist state, a Jew supremacists state, admit that and we might have some chance of communicating here, but if you do as the Nazis did, just deny wrongdoing, blaming others for the policies of home demolitions, road blocks, illegal settlement building, incarceration without charge, children put on trial in secret military courts and never ending brutality even RAPE by male Jews of Palestinian Jews, then we are going to remain pretty far apart on this subject.

That's not the disincentive you believe it is, proto-Nazi. Normal people WANT to be as far apart from you as possible.

 

[daveman]

Listen to yourself, when I read your words I draw the same conclusions that I would have drawn if hearing Himmler saying:



You're so far gone man, so far gone, this is bad, that so many people have embraced evil as good, it beggars belief but it's the truth, the sad truth.

Yeah! Everybody knows the good thing to do would be to kill every last Jew!

Right?

 

[daveman]

Interesting how they completely ignore that multiple Arab countries drove close to 1 million Jews out of their homes, stealing their properties, rendering the Middle East 99.5% Judenfrei.

They want the same thing done to Israel.

 

[daveman]

And you're spoiled brat sense of entitlement to dictate what others can and can't say about some third world throwback country that's starting to implode, meets the definition of ultrasemitism.

My ancestors fought the fuckin Nazis, you battleaxe, so you don't get to tell me when I can speak of them or the context in which I choose to do so.

View attachment 1005883

You know what I can tell you?

I can tell you to stick your head in a bucket of runny shit and inhale sharply.

 

[Lisa558]

They want the same thing done to Israel.

True. They won’t be satisfied until the remaining 0.5% of land where Jews are is rendered Jew-free.

 

[daveman]

True. They won’t be satisfied until the remaining 0.5% of land where Jews are is rendered Jew-free.

And not a one of the chickenshits are over there enlisting in Hamas.

 

[Shusha]

What rights would they have and what limits would would be placed upon them?

Every citizen (Jewish and Arab) of the Province of Gaza would have the same rights under the law. Citizens of the Province of Gaza would be distinct from citizens of Israel (dual citizenship permitted). Israel ensures and manages infrastructure, health care, education, internal and external security. Every citizen votes and has a say in the government of the Province of Gaza (within parameters of security as set by Israel). Gaza gets prosperity. Israel gets peace. In 50 years, the citizens of Gaza decide (by referendum) whether they would prefer to be fully incorporated into Israel or whether they would prefer independence.

 

[westwall]

Yes, they are. You don’t seem to have a grasp of them or you would not have presented and then doubled down on a false dichotomy: you are either stupid or for Hamas.

Yet you present no new ones. Here's your chance to present some facts.

Please do so.

 

[Lisa558]

Yet you present no new ones. Here's your chance to present some facts.

Please do so.

The problem with Coyote’s approach is that she considers Palestinians “regular” people who would welcome the chance to have their own sovereign land next to Israel. They have been presented with this option before, but have rejected it - and more than once.

That is because the Palestinians, or the large majority of them, do NOT want Israel to exist. The condition was predicated on their acceptance of that, and it was rejected. The current generation, and those before, have been so indoctrinated to want NO ISRAEL and NO JEWS that a two-state solution would not work….

….and now more than ever. That is because the anti-Israel crowd, driven by antisemitism*, have lied and spread their propaganda to such an extent that the Palestinians would want Israel wiped out, now more than ever. (Just listen to the hateful comments on this forum alone.)

No, Shusa’s proposal is the only one with any hope. Israel must move into the region (in retrospect, their decision to leave 15 years ago was too kind for these haters), and the hate must be bred out of them, largely via education. Right now, their schools teach that sacrificing oneself to kill a Jew will be rewarded in heaven.)

*If anti-Israel hate wasn’t driven by antisemitism, then the liberal universitires wouldn’t have their Jewish students unable to attend class, spit on, yanked out of their dorm rooms, slammed against walls, etc., etc.

 

[ShahdagMountains]

The Left's addiction to anti-Zionism - CarolineGlick.com

How did anti-Zionism become part of the Left's catechism? Caroline Glick discusses with Izabella Taborovsky.

carolineglick.com