Israel Occupation Police breaking the law with children

[Beelzebub]

Get on topic Kondor.
I have no more patience with your tantrums.

 

[Kondor3]

Get on topic Kondor. I have no more patience with your tantrums.

The sequence was entirely on topic...

It pertained to your accusation that I was advocating for harsher Israeli law, concerning Israeli handling of child-combatants.

A false accusation that you mistakenly made as a result of an unthinking knee-jerk reaction.

The rest is merely showing you up for the dishonest intellectual coward that you are, for being unable to admit the glaringly obvious mistake you made, in falsely accusing me in that fashion.

Pointing-out intellectual cowardice in a topical context is always considered 'on topic'.

In case you hadn't noticed, you've just had your head handed to you on a platter, in this narrow frame of reference...

As to your pathetic, juvenile attempts to wiggle out of your self-inflicted dilemma...

Here in the States, in a baseball context, you'd be laughed out of the stadium and sent back down to the Minors...

Have a good day.

After this, I know that I will.

What a nice gift... what a nice way to start the day... thank you.

 

[Beelzebub]

Get on topic Kondor. I have no more patience with your tantrums.

The ...

You think?

 

[Kondor3]

Get on topic Kondor. I have no more patience with your tantrums.

The ...

You think?

You remind me of an old girlfriend... unable to shut up... usually wrong... always had to get in the last word...

Too late now... you've been pwned... big-time... take your lumps and learn from your mistakes.

End of sequence.

 

[Beelzebub]

Get on topic Kondor. I have no more patience with your tantrums.

The ...

You think?

You ,,,

You're wrong.

 

[Coyote]

Do the Israelis need to modify their procedures for the handling of child-rioters and child terrorists to better align them with some sort of globally-acceptable standards for the handling of child combatants?

If such standards exist, and if they are applicable in this context, and if deficiencies exist in such procedures, on paper and/or in practice at large, then, sure, even the Israelis can sometimes benefit from improvement in their procedures from time to time - one good-sized 'tweak' coming up, perhaps.

Meanwhile, they could also probably stand some revising of procedures for dealing with the parents or guardians of such child combatants.

Like arresting their asses - both parents - interrogating them within an inch of their sanity, then throwing their asses into jail for a long, long time.

If, indeed, they're not doing that very thing already.

Time to make the parents pay, for their negligence or malevolence, in allowing their children to participate in such activities.

It's also time to start destroying places (and people) who offer-up such training to children.

Does that apply to the parents and families of Jewish stone throwing children or the young men who burned alive the arab kid? Currently, there is a double standard in this.

 

[Coyote]

IDF are their favourite target.

How long did she serve?

She didn't. An innocent.
Do you doubt that the killers would prefer to kill IDF?

As I asked Coyote, please tell me how many times they chose to target soldiers, and how many times they targeted whoever was in their way. No, as I see it, they always prefer the innocent. Double the joy if those are small kids.

Should have seen the celebration after the Fogels died. They were on the ninth cloud.

No different from the settlers party after Baruch Goldstein's massacre. He's still worshipped by extremists.

 

[Beelzebub]

IDF are their favourite target.

How long did she serve?

She didn't. An innocent.
Do you doubt that the killers would prefer to kill IDF?

As I asked Coyote, please tell me how many times they chose to target soldiers, and how many times they targeted whoever was in their way. No, as I see it, they always prefer the innocent. Double the joy if those are small kids.

Should have seen the celebration after the Fogels died. They were on the ninth cloud.

No different from the settlers party after Baruch Goldstein's massacre. He's still worshipped by extremists.

Not to mention the beer swilling celebrations from the hill, as Gaza was bombed.
Israelis support this like its a football match.

 

[Kondor3]

...Does that apply to the parents and families of Jewish stone throwing children or the young men who burned alive the arab kid? Currently, there is a double standard in this.

Are you operating under the impression that fairness and consistency have anything whatsoever to do with the handling of an embedded Enemy Population?

 

[Coyote]

The unequal treatment of minors under the Israeli justice system is an ongoing issue. Palestinian minors are subject to a completey different set of rules than Jewish minors, they are forceably removed from their homes, seperated from their parents, refused the right to any sort of represenation, and often brutally treated. This has been well documented. If a Jewish child was treated this way, the parents would be suing and it would be called illegal.

 

[Coyote]

...Does that apply to the parents and families of Jewish stone throwing children or the young men who burned alive the arab kid? Currently, there is a double standard in this.

Are you operating under the impression that fairness and consistency have anything whatsoever to do with the handling of an embedded Enemy Population?

I'm talking about the rule of law and justice - something civilized countries try to adhere to. If you are saying that Israel is no different than it's Arab neighbors in this regard then there is nothing to discuss.

 

[Kondor3]

The unequal treatment of minors under the Israeli justice system is an ongoing issue. Palestinian minors are subject to a completey different set of rules than Jewish minors, they are forceably removed from their homes, seperated from their parents, refused the right to any sort of represenation, and often brutally treated. This has been well documented. If a Jewish child was treated this way, the parents would be suing and it would be called illegal.

Minor-residents of Rump Palestine are not Israeli citizens.

They are the young members of an embedded Enemy Population.

The Israelis do not need to treat them in an identical fashion to Israeli children.

Unfair? Yep. Unpopular? Yep. So?

But I agree with the premise that the Israelis should probably review their procedures for the handling of Enemy Child Combatants and should probably review their practical application of those procedures to ensure a better alignment with global standards for such handling, if those exist.

 

[Kondor3]

...Does that apply to the parents and families of Jewish stone throwing children or the young men who burned alive the arab kid? Currently, there is a double standard in this.

Are you operating under the impression that fairness and consistency have anything whatsoever to do with the handling of an embedded Enemy Population?

I'm talking about the rule of law and justice - something civilized countries try to adhere to. If you are saying that Israel is no different than it's Arab neighbors in this regard then there is nothing to discuss.

When the US Army fought its way across the western and southern parts of Germany in early 1945, they were not overly concerned with ensuring that the US Army was treating German children in a fashion identical to the way in which American children were treated.

The Jews of Israel and the Muslims of Rump Palestine are engaged in a long-running and undeclared asymmetrical war.

War.

The Israelis need merely ensure that they treat Palestinian children decently and humanely, rather than on a par with their own child-citizens.

If the Israelis are falling short in such treatment, once such children are taken into custody, then they do, indeed, need to revisit their practices, and fix the problem.

 

[Coyote]

...Does that apply to the parents and families of Jewish stone throwing children or the young men who burned alive the arab kid? Currently, there is a double standard in this.

Are you operating under the impression that fairness and consistency have anything whatsoever to do with the handling of an embedded Enemy Population?

I'm talking about the rule of law and justice - something civilized countries try to adhere to. If you are saying that Israel is no different than it's Arab neighbors in this regard then there is nothing to discuss.

When the US Army fought its way across the western and southern parts of Germany in early 1945, they were not overly concerned with ensuring that the US Army was treating German children in a fashion identical to the way in which American children were treated.

The Jews of Israel and the Muslims of Rump Palestine are engaged in a long-running and undeclared asymmetrical war.

War.

The Israelis need merely ensure that they treat Palestinian children decently and humanely, rather than on a par with their own child-citizens.

If the Israelis are falling short in such treatment, once such children are taken into custody, then they do, indeed, need to revisit their practices, and fix the problem.

Depends.

There are international standards for for the treatment of children in the justice system.

For example, take the issue of solitary confinement. NPR did an expose on the treatment of minors in the criminal justice system in the US and one of the issues was putting 16 and 17 year olds in solitary confinement for mild issues (solitary confinement, in people that age, who's brains aren't completely developed) is hugely damaging and suicide, insanity and self damage rates are very high.

​

Solitary confinement of Palestinian children as actually increased in the past year, and includes children as young as 12: Israel Is Holding Even More Palestinian Children In Solitary For Throwing Rocks VICE News

The number of Palestinian children held in solitary confinement, subjected to harsh interrogation and general mistreatment in Israeli prisons is increasing, according to a report released on Monday by an international non-governmental organization.

The report was released by Defense for Children International - Palestine (DCI-P), a monitoring organization that focuses on the treatment of children in areas of conflict, and details the treatment of Palestinian children between the ages of 12 and 17 in the occupied West Bank throughout last year.

The report found that solitary confinement was used as a form of interrogation and intimidation in nearly 22 percent of recorded cases — a 2 percent increase since 2012. The average length of solitary confinement was 10 days, with the longest period being 29 days.

In addition to solitary confinement, the report also found that more than 76.5 percent of Palestinian children detained in Israeli prisons experienced some form of physical violence, 74.5 experienced verbal abuse, and 98 percent were not informed of the reason for the arrest.


Between 500 and 700 Palestinian children are detained every year in the Israeli military prison system. Since 2000, approximately 8,000 Palestinian children have been arrested and prosecuted in Israeli military courts.

The overwhelming charge brought against Palestinian youths is stone throwing, which can lead to a sentence of up to 20 years in prison.

In 85 percent of these cases children are taken from their homes in the middle of the night during raids carried out by Israeli soldiers, according to the report, which states that the children are then blindfolded and forcibly brought to a detention center inside Israel, where they are interrogated by the Israel Security Agency, (or Shin Bet), the Israeli equivalent of the FBI.

Dual System of Laws

Although the systematic use of solitary confinement and physical abuse against minors is arguably an offense in and of itself, it is part of a much broader issue of the system of laws that govern the region.

Since the West Bank is an occupied territory, Israeli military law is the legal system that governs it. But this legal system solely applies to the Palestinian inhabitants of the West Bank, and not the 600,000 Israeli citizens that live there in illegal settlements.

“There is a dual legal system that exists in the West Bank,” George Bisharat, a professor of criminal procedure and law at University of California Hastings College of Law, told VICE News. “Israel citizens are subject to Israeli civil law, while all Palestinians, both adults and juveniles, are subject to Israeli military law.”

This legal framework is not only discriminatory, but actively in violation of international law. Arresting children in the West Bank and bringing them to Israel for interrogation and detainment violates Article 76 of the Fourth Geneva Convention that forbids the transfer of detainees outside the occupied territory. Article 76 even specifies, “proper regard shall be paid to the special treatment due to minors.”
​

The report notes several disturbing things:

Nearly 100 Percent Conviction Rate - The overall conviction rate for Palestinians in Israeli military courts is 99.74 percent. Of the 853 youths charged with rock-throwing between 2005 and 2011, only one was acquitted.

...A spokesperson for the Israeli military told VICE News that the reason for the high number of arrests amongst Palestinians is because the IDF faces extensive violence on a daily basis from Palestinian minors — violence that is encouraged by the surrounding culture and an institutionalized public support system.

"The IDF strongly rejects the claims that Palestinian minors are systematically mistreated in any way after being detained for involvement in violent acts or terror activity," said the statement from the IDF.

But the reason for the high number of arrests and convictions among Palestinian adults and youths is not necessarily due to a high rate of criminal activity or violence inherent in Palestinian youths or culture, Bisharat pointed out.

“One of the more troubling aspects of the mistreatment of juveniles is the way in which the Israeli legal system has been used as a tool of pressure to recruit collaborators,” he said. “Children are one of the most vulnerable populations to be recruited.”

DCI-P’s report echoes this with regards to the use of solitary confinement.

“The use of solitary confinement by Israeli authorities does not appear to be related to any disciplinary, protective, or medical rationale or justification,” the report states.​

Using the system to pressure children like this is hugely damaging and damning and dual system of laws governing justice in the same territory encourages this.

 

[montelatici]

The unequal treatment of minors under the Israeli justice system is an ongoing issue. Palestinian minors are subject to a completey different set of rules than Jewish minors, they are forceably removed from their homes, seperated from their parents, refused the right to any sort of represenation, and often brutally treated. This has been well documented. If a Jewish child was treated this way, the parents would be suing and it would be called illegal.

Minor-residents of Rump Palestine are not Israeli citizens.

They are the young members of an embedded Enemy Population.

The Israelis do not need to treat them in an identical fashion to Israeli children.

Unfair? Yep. Unpopular? Yep. So?

But I agree with the premise that the Israelis should probably review their procedures for the handling of Enemy Child Combatants and should probably review their practical application of those procedures to ensure a better alignment with global standards for such handling, if those exist.

Actually, it is illegal. ICC should look into Israel's treatment of children and issue some EU warrants for the perpetrators.

"II. Special Protection of Children
The Fourth Geneva Convention contains a number of articles which provide special protection to children. The events of two world wars, as stated in the beginning, clearly established the need for special protection to children; however nowhere in the Convention this was stated as a principle. Protocol I fills this gap by stating in Article 77 that “children shall be the object of special respect and shall be protected against any form of indecent assault. The Parties to the conflict shall provide them with the care and aid they require, whether because of their age or for any other reason”. Attention is invited to the use of terms ‘shall be object of special respect’, and ‘shall be protected against any form of indecent assault’. The use of the word ‘shall’ makes it a mandatory provision in the form of ‘duty’ and casts an obligation on the parties to carry out the provision in letter and spirit. Further the use of the word ‘special’ denotes the importance and emphasis which the Prot. I places on the protection of children. According to Oxford Advanced Learner’s Dictionary (4th ed.) ‘respect’ means politeness or consideration arising from admiration or regard; admiration felt or shown for a person or thing that has good qualities or achievements”. The use of the word ‘special’ before ‘respect’ puts ‘respect’ on much higher plane and makes the protection of children all the more important both in letter and spirit. In the words of Jean Pictet “the word ‘respect’ (respecter) means, according to the Dictionary of the French Academy, “to spare, not to attack (epargner, ne point attaquer) whereas ‘protect’ (proteger) means ‘to come to some one’s defence, to give help and support’. These words make it unlawful to kill, ill-treat or in any way injure — while at the same time they impose an obligation to come to his aid and give him any care of which he stands in need”.[8] This obligation to protect the children admits no derogation unless specifically mentioned.

Thus, it may be stated that the principle of special protection of children during international armed conflicts is expressly established. This provision also serves to re-affirm the numerous provisions which contain the detailed rules in favour of children. Protocol II makes a somewhat similar provision in Article 4 for application in non-international armed conflicts. It provides that ‘children shall be provided with the care and aid they require’."

Special Protection Of Children During Armed Conflicts Under The Geneva Conventions Regime - 2001 ISILYBIHRL 2

 

[Kondor3]

...Actually, it is illegal. ICC should look into Israel's treatment of children...

Does the ICC have jurisdiction in such cases?

Will such an investigation distinguish between (a) children engaged in military operations as child-soldiers (suicide bombers, et al), (b) children found violating border-fence and other security protocols, (c) children accused of mundane criminal activity and (d) children who are innocent of any possible wrongdoing?

Will such an investigation take into account the state of asymmetrical warfare in which Israel and Rump Palestine are engaged?

...and issue some EU warrants for the perpetrators...

Is the ICC an organ of the EU?

Have such cases been successful in the past?

Have such warrants been issued in the past?

It seems likely that the Israelis would treat such warrants as an addition to their National Strategic Reserve of Toilet Paper.

 

[Lipush]

Do the Israelis need to modify their procedures for the handling of child-rioters and child terrorists to better align them with some sort of globally-acceptable standards for the handling of child combatants?

If such standards exist, and if they are applicable in this context, and if deficiencies exist in such procedures, on paper and/or in practice at large, then, sure, even the Israelis can sometimes benefit from improvement in their procedures from time to time - one good-sized 'tweak' coming up, perhaps.

Meanwhile, they could also probably stand some revising of procedures for dealing with the parents or guardians of such child combatants.

Like arresting their asses - both parents - interrogating them within an inch of their sanity, then throwing their asses into jail for a long, long time.

If, indeed, they're not doing that very thing already.

Time to make the parents pay, for their negligence or malevolence, in allowing their children to participate in such activities.

It's also time to start destroying places (and people) who offer-up such training to children.

Does that apply to the parents and families of Jewish stone throwing children or the young men who burned alive the arab kid? Currently, there is a double standard in this.

It always surprised me. The Palestinian leadership said in the past that "We couldn't find the weapon to deal with the occupation's tanks.... but then we came up with the stone."

They see stoning as something holy and cherishable, but then the settlers learned to catch the stones and send them back like beachballs, right where they came from.

So now they complain. What is it that the Arabs dislike? The game being played, or the fact that the settlers now reached the Palestinian own level?

 

[Coyote]

Do the Israelis need to modify their procedures for the handling of child-rioters and child terrorists to better align them with some sort of globally-acceptable standards for the handling of child combatants?

If such standards exist, and if they are applicable in this context, and if deficiencies exist in such procedures, on paper and/or in practice at large, then, sure, even the Israelis can sometimes benefit from improvement in their procedures from time to time - one good-sized 'tweak' coming up, perhaps.

Meanwhile, they could also probably stand some revising of procedures for dealing with the parents or guardians of such child combatants.

Like arresting their asses - both parents - interrogating them within an inch of their sanity, then throwing their asses into jail for a long, long time.

If, indeed, they're not doing that very thing already.

Time to make the parents pay, for their negligence or malevolence, in allowing their children to participate in such activities.

It's also time to start destroying places (and people) who offer-up such training to children.

Does that apply to the parents and families of Jewish stone throwing children or the young men who burned alive the arab kid? Currently, there is a double standard in this.

It always surprised me. The Palestinian leadership said in the past that "We couldn't find the weapon to deal with the occupation's tanks.... but then we came up with the stone."

They see stoning as something holy and cherishable, but then the settlers learned to catch the stones and send them back like beachballs, right where they came from.

So now they complain. What is it that the Arabs dislike? The game being played, or the fact that the settlers now reached the Palestinian own level?

Stoning children is a game? It's ok if the Jews do it but not ok if the Palestinians do it? I would think it should be handled with equity since the human cost is high.

 

[Mojo2]

Judge rules police broke law in arresting Arab minors during protests
Police have been interrogating minors at night and without their parents present; the court has also received complaints of police violence.

The police broke the law in the arrest and detention of minors in the recent violence in the north in the Arab sector, according to a judge handling the cases. The actions of the police seem to mirror a trend shown by a recent state comptroller’s report on the arrests and processing of suspected youthful offenders.

Most of the cases – in the dozens – in which the police decided to prosecute minors were brought before Nazareth Youth Magistrate’s Court Judge Ilanit Imber to be remanded, rather than to be released by the officer in charge at the police station as the law allows under certain circumstances.

On the afternoon of November 10, Imber was already hearing her 10th case that day – a 14-year-old boy from an Arab village in the north suspected of participation in rioting. Her ruling in the case showed that she had decided to tackle the issue of the police conduct toward not only that teen, but other cases that had come before her during the recent period of unrest.

“This is a 14-year-old without a criminal record who cooperated with investigators and despite Clause 9 of the Youth Law, his parents were not brought in to sit with him during interrogation as the law requires,” the judge said. Imber added other instances in which the police broke the law in this case, noting that the teen was brought in at night without the presence of a parent and no reason was given for the parents not to be with the teen during questioning. “This is the 10th suspect brought before me in this affair and I see that the conduct of the petitioner [the police] with regard to Clause 9 has become systematic with regard to the abrogation of the right of minors to have their parents present.”

Imber also related to complaints by the young suspects of violence against them by police during their arrest or at the police station. She noted that the police had taken the boy to receive medical care without his parents and without reporting the fact to anyone – also in breach of the law.

“In this case I noticed that the minor had been injured in the hand and had been taken for treatment without the knowledge of the parents and with no relative present during the examination. More seriously, the file contains no mention of this nor a medical certificate that shows that the minor was taken for an examination and the court learned of this from the suspect’s attorney,” Inber ruled.

The Youth Law applies to minors from the age of 12 to 18. Among its provisions, it states that a minor up to the age of 14 can be questioned only until 8 P.M. and over the age of 14 until 10 P.M.

One of the law’s most important clauses is that minors should be arrested and held only as a last resort.

The judge noted that at the time of his arrest, the offenses against the youth were not clearly defined “but rather described in a manner not conforming to the Penal Code.” Inber also said in the case of another minor suspected of illegal assembly in one of the disturbances in the north that the parents had not been informed that he was to be questioned. “This minor has no criminal record and although I believe that the evidence substantiates the suspicions and reason for an arrest, I believe that his case should be differentiated from that of other suspects because his part in the events differed from the rest, and noting the failures in the investigation, I have found it proper to significantly restrict the number of days in custody,” the judge ruled.

Judge rules police broke law in arresting Arab minors during protests - National Israel News Haaretz

This is unsurprising as Israeli forces routinely flout laws: Israeli, International, and The Laws of God, if you believe in such things.

That Israeli forces beat children when they are under their care seems to be a routine matter as well.

The Palestinians want the Jews DEAD and Israel destroyed.

That invalidates any moral appeals from their supporters.

Unless you support killing the Jews and destroying Israel.

 

[Coyote]

Judge rules police broke law in arresting Arab minors during protests
Police have been interrogating minors at night and without their parents present; the court has also received complaints of police violence.

The police broke the law in the arrest and detention of minors in the recent violence in the north in the Arab sector, according to a judge handling the cases. The actions of the police seem to mirror a trend shown by a recent state comptroller’s report on the arrests and processing of suspected youthful offenders.

Most of the cases – in the dozens – in which the police decided to prosecute minors were brought before Nazareth Youth Magistrate’s Court Judge Ilanit Imber to be remanded, rather than to be released by the officer in charge at the police station as the law allows under certain circumstances.

On the afternoon of November 10, Imber was already hearing her 10th case that day – a 14-year-old boy from an Arab village in the north suspected of participation in rioting. Her ruling in the case showed that she had decided to tackle the issue of the police conduct toward not only that teen, but other cases that had come before her during the recent period of unrest.

“This is a 14-year-old without a criminal record who cooperated with investigators and despite Clause 9 of the Youth Law, his parents were not brought in to sit with him during interrogation as the law requires,” the judge said. Imber added other instances in which the police broke the law in this case, noting that the teen was brought in at night without the presence of a parent and no reason was given for the parents not to be with the teen during questioning. “This is the 10th suspect brought before me in this affair and I see that the conduct of the petitioner [the police] with regard to Clause 9 has become systematic with regard to the abrogation of the right of minors to have their parents present.”

Imber also related to complaints by the young suspects of violence against them by police during their arrest or at the police station. She noted that the police had taken the boy to receive medical care without his parents and without reporting the fact to anyone – also in breach of the law.

“In this case I noticed that the minor had been injured in the hand and had been taken for treatment without the knowledge of the parents and with no relative present during the examination. More seriously, the file contains no mention of this nor a medical certificate that shows that the minor was taken for an examination and the court learned of this from the suspect’s attorney,” Inber ruled.

The Youth Law applies to minors from the age of 12 to 18. Among its provisions, it states that a minor up to the age of 14 can be questioned only until 8 P.M. and over the age of 14 until 10 P.M.

One of the law’s most important clauses is that minors should be arrested and held only as a last resort.

The judge noted that at the time of his arrest, the offenses against the youth were not clearly defined “but rather described in a manner not conforming to the Penal Code.” Inber also said in the case of another minor suspected of illegal assembly in one of the disturbances in the north that the parents had not been informed that he was to be questioned. “This minor has no criminal record and although I believe that the evidence substantiates the suspicions and reason for an arrest, I believe that his case should be differentiated from that of other suspects because his part in the events differed from the rest, and noting the failures in the investigation, I have found it proper to significantly restrict the number of days in custody,” the judge ruled.

Judge rules police broke law in arresting Arab minors during protests - National Israel News Haaretz

This is unsurprising as Israeli forces routinely flout laws: Israeli, International, and The Laws of God, if you believe in such things.

That Israeli forces beat children when they are under their care seems to be a routine matter as well.

The Palestinians want the Jews DEAD and Israel destroyed.

That invalidates any moral appeals from their supporters.

Unless you support killing the Jews and destroying Israel.

So you support abusing children if they are of the wrong brand?

Nice.