Israel Lobby Too Powerful?

[dilloduck]

I respond that we have also given billions in aid to the Palestinians to "encourage" them to go to the peace table. It is in our interests to have stability in the region and that costs, same as we spread money around in other places around the globe.

The difference is that Israel remains our ally where others just take the money. Also, no funds we ever gave to Israel ended up in the foreign bank account of the prime minister's wife.

I have far greater objections to the tax dollars we've spent on Iraq.

And the are satisfied with that answer ??? Why should any of them get one thin dime and what does the US receive in return for this trillino dollar giveaway? Every cent we spend there in a total waste IMHO.

 

[jillian]

And the are satisfied with that answer ??? Why should any of them get one thin dime and what does the US receive in return for this trillino dollar giveaway? Every cent we spend there in a total waste IMHO.

Sometimes things are just the right thing to do..... so I'm gonna have to call a draw with ya on this one and agree to disagree.

 

[dilloduck]

Sometimes things are just the right thing to do..... so I'm gonna have to call a draw with ya on this one and agree to disagree.

Sure---(if we can just say Iraq was the right place to attack too! ) :happy2:

 

[jillian]

Sure---(if we can just say Iraq was the right place to attack too! ) :happy2:

:happy2: :rotflmao:

 

[José]

Originally posted by The Hawk
Freedom fighters form an army and fight like men. They don't blow themselves up with women and children. So I'd call them cowards.

It is always wrong to target civilians in any kind of war, guerrilla, armed struggle etc...

No matter who does it: America, palestinians or the Vatican.

As long as they do not take up arms they should not be considered targets.

 

[José]

But now we must pay attention to this point:

It is always possible to pursue a legitimate end using illegitimate means.

Through their armed struggle palestinian arabs pursue a legitimate goal (their right to live in western Palestine) through illegimate means (the targetting of civilians).

Adress their legitimate grievances, establish a state in Palestine with freedom for the palestinian people and security for the jewish population and they’ll have no need to wage their armed struggle using legitimate or illegimate means anymore.

A parallel can be established between the US conduct during WWII and the way palestinian arabs wage their armed struggle.

During WWII, America pursued a legitimate goal (the overtrow of two dictatorships) by illegitimate means (the killing of thousands of german and japanese civilians).

Should the plans and achievements of America in Germany and Japan be delegitimised because of the means used by the US government to achieve them?

Of course not.

The same can be said about palestinians. Western Palestine will forever be part of their homeland. History, genetics, international law and common morality tells them they have a right to live there.

No matter how many israeli civilians are killed in their armed struggle, their aspirations to live in western Palestine will be as legitimate 5 centuries in the future as they are now.

 

[José]

Now I would like to point out the hypocrisy and double standards of most S.P.A.C.’s (Super Patriotic American Clowns) of this forum when they judge the palestinian struggle.

When palestinian arabs intentionally target civilians to achieve their political goal (their right to live in western Palestine), the typical S.P.A.C. of the US Message Board calls them terrorists and cowards in an attempt to use their means to delegitimise their cause.

But when the US army intentionally target japanese civilians to achieve its political goal (the unconditional surrender of Japan) the same S.P.A.C. calls them heroes (trying to legitimise not only America’s goal, but also the means it used to achieve them).

This is why I made up this fantastic expression:

<B>SUPER PATRIOTIC AMERICAN CLOWN</B>

People who judge two basically identical courses of action by two different standards do not deserve to be called serious political thinkers.

In fact, they are missing their true calling.

They should be on a circus ring, not a message board.

 

[bush lover]

Hebrew is related to Arabic, some words are interchangeable. Jews and Arabs are Semitic cousins. Most Israelis also speak Arabic. Hebrew and Arabic are written right to left. There are massive palaces built by the Jews thousands of years ago in Israel, which you call Western Palestine. I would call Jordan Eastern Palestine. A thousand Jews on a mountain in Israel held off an army of Roman soldiers for more than a year. And that was a a couple of thousand years (give or take a few hundred) before the Arabs invaded the region from the east. Look at your history.

A further question Jose: Does Tibet have a right to be independent, or do the Commie Chinese have a right to own it just because they took it over in 1949?
Does Ireland have a right to be independent, or should England own it because they occupied Ireland for 700 years and nearly destroyed the Irish language, race, culture and religion?
Does Armenia have a right to exist as an independent country, after Russia and Turkey carved it up? Should those countries still rule Armenia?
How about Finland? Does it have a right to exist? Russia and Sweden used to rule them.
Do the Jews have a right to live in their homeland? If not, why not Jose?

 

[Annie]

It is always wrong to target civilians in any kind of war, guerrilla, armed struggle etc...

No matter who does it: America, palestinians or the Vatican.

As long as they do not take up arms they should not be considered targets.

Only the Palis have done so in modern times.

 

[dilloduck]

Only the Palis have done so in modern times.

How about Kosovo, Dafur ?

 

[Annie]

How about Kosovo, Dafur ?

Neither US nor Vatican targeted civilians in those places.

 

[dilloduck]

Neither US nor Vatican targeted civilians in those places.

Neither did the Palis.

 

[Annie]

Neither did the Palis.

But they do target civilians, what is your problem this morning?

 

[dilloduck]

But they do target civilians, what is your problem this morning?

Your inaccuracies-----the palis aren't the only people to target women and children in modern times as you claim.

 

[Annie]

Your inaccuracies-----the palis aren't the only people to target women and children in modern times as you claim.

I was responding to this,#29, while you just are trying to flame:

It is always wrong to target civilians in any kind of war, guerrilla, armed struggle etc...

No matter who does it: America, palestinians or the Vatican.

As long as they do not take up arms they should not be considered targets.

 

[dilloduck]

I was responding to this,#29, while you just are trying to flame:

Don't make this out to be a flame when nothing could be further from the truth. I was pointing out that there are groups other than Palis who have targeted civilians in modern times and gave examples. There are probably more. How can you possibly construe that as flaming ?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Now I would like to point out the hypocrisy and double standards of most S.P.A.C.’s (Super Patriotic American Clowns) of this forum when they judge the palestinian struggle.

When palestinian arabs intentionally target civilians to achieve their political goal (their right to live in western Palestine), the typical S.P.A.C. of the US Message Board calls them terrorists and cowards in an attempt to use their means to delegitimise their cause.

But when the US army intentionally target japanese civilians to achieve its political goal (the unconditional surrender of Japan) the same S.P.A.C. calls them heroes (trying to legitimise not only America’s goal, but also the means it used to achieve them).

This is why I made up this fantastic expression:

<B>SUPER PATRIOTIC AMERICAN CLOWN</B>

People who judge two basically identical courses of action by two different standards do not deserve to be called serious political thinkers.

In fact, they are missing their true calling.

They should be on a circus ring, not a message board.

That is a fantastic expression.

How About "Doomed To Death Jihadi Assmuffin"

Is that catchy enough for you?

 

[Annie]

Don't make this out to be a flame when nothing could be further from the truth. I was pointing out that there are groups other than Palis who have targeted civilians in modern times and gave examples. There are probably more. How can you possibly construe that as flaming ?

Again, that was not what was under discussion, it was America and Vatican-you jumped in for

 

[dilloduck]

Again, that was not what was under discussion, it was America and Vatican-you jumped in for

I was adding to the discussion. Any flaming was all in your mind. I did nothing to intentional incite, insult defame or anger you. Have OCA teach what flaming is all about.

 

[José]

Originally posted by RtwngAvengr
That is a fantastic expression.

How About "Doomed To Death Jihadi Assmuffin"

Is that catchy enough for you?

A majority of arabs/muslims have a justified resentment towards America/the West support for Israel (people here are always asking: where are the moderate muslims to condenm terrorism? Well, maybe they are waiting for the moderate americans to show up first and condenm the jewish racial dictatorship...)

These are reasonable individuals who resent America for what America does in Palestine not what America is. The resentment felt by the first group of arab/muslims can be adressed by many reasonable measures like the democratisation of Palestine.

But you also have hundreds of thousands of muslims (millions?) for all the wrong reasons you can imagine.

Triying to explain to them why democracy, free enterprise and secularism is best for all human societies, including arab societies, is as productive as asking a nuclear phisicist to explain particle phisics to a group of pigmies in the jungles of Congo.

The resentment felt by this second group can only be adressed by a total end of western influence in the arab/muslim world, which is not reasonable at all.

These individuals simply cannot be reasoned with, so there&#8217;s not much else to do other than engage them militarily.

Answering your question directly...

I don&#8217;t have a problem with any expression as long as they have a referent, that is, as long as they represent something real, something that do exist. Since there are lots of &#8220;Doomed To Death Jihadi Assmuffin&#8221; in the muslim world, it is fine by me... maybe I&#8217;m gonna start to use it myself... : )