Israel Going House to House

[okfine]

You try so hard to justify what Muslim barbarians did to innocent Jews.

What about the hostages the Muslims are torturing this very minute? THAT is where the focus should be.

Never in any post have I defended either side, so you are so mistaken.

 

[Coyote]

No, it has always been about military objectives. They still have our people. They have said they are going to commit this atrocity over, and over, and over, a million times. It has always been about the military objectives.

I don’t think so because they don’t really have quantifiable objectives. No one can say what winning looks like or what happens next. The military objects are mixed in with rage and retribution directed at the civilian population as much as at Hamas.

This is as as much about Netanyahu’s political future as it is military objectives Imo.

It is absolutely possible it could have been done with less loss of life. But I don't know how it could possibly be judged from where we are sitting at our computers, without a WHOLE lot more information that won't likely be available to us (you and I) for months, if not years.

That is true, but it doesn’t stop any of us from speculating and blaming and it doesn’t mean we should uncritically accept everything Israel does as righteous and above board. They are a nation and like any other nation they have their own national interests (or political interests) to look to as well.

It is the assumption of intent that you place on the Israelis that I find offensive.

Is it an assumption? Or a question that needs to be asked?

Why don’t you look at what has been coming out of this government since they came into power in both words and actions (and inactions). And even before they came into power. And look at the man in power who is willing to corrupt Israel in order to satisfy religious extremists who’s support is the only thing allowing him to remain in power?

 

[Coyote]

The numbers of Hamas Fighters surrendering has increased in last 24 hours , speculation is that the Combat Operations in Gaza could gravitate to Pacification and mop up in TWO WEEKS !

What about the hostages?

 

[Coyote]

You try so hard to justify what Muslim barbarians did to innocent Jews.

What about the hostages the Muslims are torturing this very minute? THAT is where the focus should be.

There are a lot of innocent people who deserve our focus.

 

[Blaster]

What about the hostages?

It is Hamas responsibility to return them.

 

[Coyote]

It is Hamas responsibility to return them.

I’m asking on whether there is any further word on them. Unfortunately they aren’t all held by Hamas.

 

[Shusha]

I don’t think so because they don’t really have quantifiable objectives. No one can say what winning looks like or what happens next.

Oh, on the contrary the objectives are clear and quantifiable:
1. Return of every. single. hostage. (Or their remains).
2. Hamas surrender.
3. Destruction of all weapons and infrastructure that is used to harm Israeli civilians.

What happens next is a different question. Gaza can't be left in chaos without a governing authority. That authority being Israel, or some other country, or if Gaza can somehow, by some miracle, put together a viable, peaceful government, are all options. Personally, I think a conditional mandate by another Arab nation until Gaza can develop and choose water, is the best for the people of Gaza and Israel. But will another Arab nation step up? I think it unlikely. Which pretty much leaves Israel without a lot of choices except to apply sovereignty temporarily or permanently. Israel doesn't have a whole lot of options here. Hamas responsibility.

The military objects are mixed in with rage and retribution directed at the civilian population as much as at Hamas.

I think that is true. I know I've been full of unending rage for all these weeks now. Hard to watch ordinary Gazans spitting on your broken, mutilated, young women. Hard to imagine all the other atrocities being celebrated. But, I can't say how this translates, exactly, into military actions on the whole. I do believe Israel is doing what it can to limit civilian casualties, and not committing, as a whole, wanton killing of civilians. I think there will be stories coming out in the months and years ahead of individual exceptions to this, horrific acts that individual soldiers committed.

That is true, but it doesn’t stop any of us from speculating and blaming and it doesn’t mean we should uncritically accept everything Israel does as righteous and above board.

Agreed.

Why don’t you look at what has been coming out of this government since they came into power in both words and actions (and inactions). And even before they came into power. And look at the man in power who is willing to corrupt Israel in order to satisfy religious extremists who’s support is the only thing allowing him to remain in power?

Ugh. Don't make me research Israeli politics! The lowest layer of hell. Ugh.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

If I saw my family and friends suffer the oppression and humiliation, I would probably retaliate myself.

If you were an Israeli who watched his pawpaw's head get chopped off with a garden hoe, after meemaw was raped with the handle?

 

[okfine]

If you were an Israeli who watched his pawpaw's head get chopped off with a garden hoe, after meemaw was raped with the handle?

My statement could be read and understood by any and all whether a supporter of either side or not.

 

[Coyote]

Oh, on the contrary the objectives are clear and quantifiable:
1. Return of every. single. hostage. (Or their remains).
2. Hamas surrender.
3. Destruction of all weapons and infrastructure that is used to harm Israeli civilians.

Ok, I can go along with that.

What happens next is a different question. Gaza can't be left in chaos without a governing authority. That authority being Israel, or some other country, or if Gaza can somehow, by some miracle, put together a viable, peaceful government, are all options. Personally, I think a conditional mandate by another Arab nation until Gaza can develop and choose water, is the best for the people of Gaza and Israel. But will another Arab nation step up? I think it unlikely. Which pretty much leaves Israel without a lot of choices except to apply sovereignty temporarily or permanently. Israel doesn't have a whole lot of options here. Hamas responsibility.

IMO? The Arab States, Israel, the U.S., the Palestinians themselves and maybe the EU all had a hand in creating the situation that exists today. The Palestinians have also served as useful political pawns for their own national interests. I think it needs to be a multinational mandate.

I think that is true. I know I've been full of unending rage for all these weeks now. Hard to watch ordinary Gazans spitting on your broken, mutilated, young women. Hard to imagine all the other atrocities being celebrated.

Agree.

I had to stop watching the footage and images, as with what the Russians did in Ukraine.

But, I can't say how this translates, exactly, into military actions on the whole. I do believe Israel is doing what it can to limit civilian casualties, and not committing, as a whole, wanton killing of civilians. I think there will be stories coming out in the months and years ahead of individual exceptions to this, horrific acts that individual soldiers committed.

I’m not convinced. One article I read outlined several different strategies they could use that would be slower but result in fewer civilian casualties. My opinion is that their attempts to genuinely limit civilian casualties are too little too late and due to pressure from allies.

Agreed.

Ugh. Don't make me research Israeli politics! The lowest layer of hell. Ugh.

 

[Shusha]

I’m not convinced. One article I read outlined several different strategies they could use that would be slower but result in fewer civilian casualties. My opinion is that their attempts to genuinely limit civilian casualties are too little too late and due to pressure from allies.

Do you remember the source? I'll read it.

 

[Coyote]

Do you remember the source? I'll read it.

I’ll look

 

[Coyote]

Do you remember the source? I'll read it.

Found it:

U.S. Officials Outline Steps to Israel to Reduce Civilian Casualties (Published 2023)

The measures include using smaller bombs against Hamas, U.S. officials said.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Shusha]

Found it:

U.S. Officials Outline Steps to Israel to Reduce Civilian Casualties (Published 2023)

The measures include using smaller bombs against Hamas, U.S. officials said.

www.nytimes.com

Paywalled.

Edited to add, I found a summary elsewhere. (Not the actual article).

 

[Lisa558]

Found it:

U.S. Officials Outline Steps to Israel to Reduce Civilian Casualties (Published 2023)

The measures include using smaller bombs against Hamas, U.S. officials said.

www.nytimes.com

The NYT is extremely leftist and biased against Israel.

Given the atrocities the Muslim terrorists committed against innocent Jews, combined with the appalling fact that 85% of Palestinians SUPPORT the barbaric murder of Jews committed by the savages - yes, they qualify as savages - I think Israel is showing amazing humanity by trying to reduce the civilian deaths at all. Remember, the majority of them want the Jews DEAD.

 

[Coyote]

Paywalled.

crap….

Here is an excerpt:

But U.S. officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the meetings were private, said there had been a number of conversations in which they had advised their Israeli counterparts to take a more deliberate approach in their operations.

U.S. officials told the Israelis that they could reduce civilian casualties if they improved how they targeted Hamas leaders, gathered more intelligence on Hamas command and control networks before launching strikes, used smaller bombs to collapse the tunnel network and employed their ground forces to separate civilian population centers from where the militants are concentrated.

The Americans say Israel’s forceful response to the attack by Hamas on Oct. 7, in which more than 1,400 people were killed and more than 240 were taken hostage, reflects the importance that it places on re-establishing deterrence against attacks from adversaries in the region. The Israeli military’s aura of power was shaken by the Oct. 7 attack, the officials say.

The unfolding humanitarian crisis in Hamas-controlled Gaza, where the health ministry says more than 9,400 people have been killed, has provoked outrage in the region, in the United States and around the world, leading the Biden administration to be more vocal in saying that Israel has to do more to protect civilians.

Mr. Blinken urged Israel to agree to a series of pauses in the fighting to facilitate the flow of humanitarian aid into Gaza and the exit of foreign nationals from the enclave, but Mr. Netanyahu rebuffed the idea, saying any pauses would be contingent on the release of all Israeli hostages.

In the first two weeks of the war, roughly 90 percent of the munitions Israel dropped in Gaza were satellite-guided bombs of 1,000 to 2,000 pounds, according to a senior U.S. military official. The rest were 250-pound small-diameter bombs.

Asked about the U.S. request to use smaller bombs, a spokesman for the Israeli Defense Forces, Maj. Nir Dinar, said: “We don’t comment on munitions and our conversations with allies.”

Israel used at least two 2,000-pound bombs during an airstrike on Tuesday on Jabaliya, a dense area just north of Gaza City, according to experts and an analysis conducted by The New York Times of satellite images, photos and videos.

American military officials say that the smaller bombs are much better suited to the dense urban environments of Gaza. But Israel has over the years built up stocks of larger bombs, intended mostly to target hardened Hezbollah military positions in Lebanon.

The United States is now trying to send more of the smaller bombs to Israel, said the senior military official. If the United States can get those smaller munitions to Israel, American officials hope Israel will use them to mitigate the risk to civilians.

The United States has also increased the amount of intelligence that it is collecting in Gaza: American drones are flying over the enclave, searching for hostages held by Hamas and other groups, and U.S. military satellites have been redirected to monitor the enclave. The United States is also using aircraft on the two carriers in the Mediterranean to help collect additional intelligence, including electronic intercepts.

 

[Coyote]

The NYT is extremely leftist and biased against Israel.

Given the atrocities the Muslim terrorists committed against innocent Jews, combined with the appalling fact that 85% of Palestinians SUPPORT the barbaric murder of Jews committed by the savages - yes, they qualify as savages - I think Israel is showing amazing humanity by trying to reduce the civilian deaths at all. Remember, the majority of them want the Jews DEAD.

6,600 Gaza children have been killed, likely more buried under the rubble. 17,700 civilians killed so far.

You realize, don’t you, that that poll was conducted over a month after Israel started bombing Gaza? When the death
the toll was already in excess of 15,000? Think that might influence opinion?

Wrong to assume Gazans support Hamas atrocities | READER COMMENTARY

Palestinians in Gaza Strip have, at best, mixed views of Hamas and many were appalled by October 7 terrorism.

www.baltimoresun.com

While recent surveys carried out after Oct. 7 indicate that the majority of people in Gaza support the recent horrendous attack against Israeli civilians, the attitudes of the people in Gaza before Oct. 7 were very different. An article in the Foreign Affairs Magazine (Oct. 25) published by the Foreign Affairs Council presented the results of a comprehensive survey carried out in Gaza between Sept. 28 and Oct. 6, 2023, indicating that it is a mistake to conclude that the majority of Gazans were complicit with or supportive of the atrocities carried out by Hamas.

In the survey, most Gazans did not align themselves with Hamas’ ideology and have little or no confidence in the corrupt Hamas-led government, and the majority of Gazans did not share Hamas’ goal of eliminating the state of Israel. Of those surveyed, 73% favored a peaceful solution to the Israel-Palestinian conflict, and the majority favored the two-state solution outlined in the 1993 Oslo accords.

 

[Lisa558]

6,600 Gaza children have been killed, likely more buried under the rubble. 17,700 civilians killed so far.

You realize, don’t you, that that poll was conducted over a month after Israel started bombing Gaza? When the death
the toll was already in excess of 15,000? Think that might influence opinion?

Wrong to assume Gazans support Hamas atrocities | READER COMMENTARY

Palestinians in Gaza Strip have, at best, mixed views of Hamas and many were appalled by October 7 terrorism.

www.baltimoresun.com

While recent surveys carried out after Oct. 7 indicate that the majority of people in Gaza support the recent horrendous attack against Israeli civilians, the attitudes of the people in Gaza before Oct. 7 were very different. An article in the Foreign Affairs Magazine (Oct. 25) published by the Foreign Affairs Council presented the results of a comprehensive survey carried out in Gaza between Sept. 28 and Oct. 6, 2023, indicating that it is a mistake to conclude that the majority of Gazans were complicit with or supportive of the atrocities carried out by Hamas.

In the survey, most Gazans did not align themselves with Hamas’ ideology and have little or no confidence in the corrupt Hamas-led government, and the majority of Gazans did not share Hamas’ goal of eliminating the state of Israel. Of those surveyed, 73% favored a peaceful solution to the Israel-Palestinian conflict, and the majority favored the two-state solution outlined in the 1993 Oslo accords.

That’s what leftists do: just compare numbers.

HAMAS has promised to keep repeating October 7th until they’ve killed all Jews. Israel must do what is needed to make sure these barbarians are put down, forever. Israel Is showing amazing RESTRAINT against the Palestinians given that the majority of them SUPPORT the Jew-genocide objective of HAMAS.

If Israel did not give the PalestInians who want them dead warnings and escape routes, more would have died. It is the exact opposite of what HAMAS did.

 

[Failzero]

Don’t worry Hamas will be smashed within TWO WEEKS !

 

[Coyote]

That’s what leftists do: just compare numbers.

They aren’t numbers, they are human lives. That’s the problem with rightists. They just see numbers.

HAMAS has promised to keep repeating October 7th until they’ve killed all Jews. Israel must do what is needed to make sure these barbarians are put down, forever. Israel Is showing amazing RESTRAINT against the Palestinians given that the majority of them SUPPORT the Jew-genocide objective of HAMAS.

If Israel did not give the PalestInians who want them dead warnings and escape routes, more would have died. It is the exact opposite of what HAMAS did.

I’ll refer back to the article I quoted that you ignored.