Islam forbids

[Kalam]

Yes it is wise for you to get used to total failure in the relative privacy and anonymity of internet chat forum, before you fail out in public in a grandiose way.

I've been patiently waiting for you to begin your utter humiliation of me since you began posting here.

Unless of course you figure out what the hell Islam is all about along the way,
then you will either reject Islam or become a martyr .

It's cute that you think you have a better idea of "what Islam is" than I do. Rest assured, my views are not unknown to those who interact with me, including some very conservative Muslims who have yet to kill me or call me an unbeliever.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Yes it is wise for you to get used to total failure in the relative privacy and anonymity of internet chat forum, before you fail out in public in a grandiose way.

I've been patiently waiting for you to begin your utter humiliation of me since you began posting here.

Wrong thread ,
this is a thread for someone to prove unequivocal none Muslims are innocent according to Islamic scripture.
You have be unable to get in the neighborhood ,let alone the street with your "logical bombs of rationality "
Wrong board.
You'll be wanting
Bondage | BDSM Forums | Fetish, Bondage, and BDSM Message Boards

 

[Intense]

I'll address the misguided among my fellow believers when my knowledge of Arabic, my familiarity with the Sunni hadith collections, and my familiarity with the common interpretations of fiqh have all been nearly perfected. Until then, the arguments of the aspirant orientalists of USMB will make for decent target practice.

Yes it is wise for you to get used to total failure in the relative privacy and anonymity of internet chat forum, before you fail out in public in a grandiose way.
Unless of course you figure out what the hell Islam is all about along the way,
then you will either reject Islam or become a martyr .

If Kalam is speaking Honestly, He is already a Martyr. If not He is Accountable to God.

 

[Intense]

I apologize for not noticing this earlier!

Sorry Kalam, But your argument is a total failure.

I will take this judgment of yours into consideration along with your inability to demonstrate why my argument is a "total failure."

What you fail to address with your propaganda

I'm sorry; sound arguments substantiated with clear scriptural references can hardly be called propagandistic.


I'll address the misguided among my fellow believers when my knowledge of Arabic, my familiarity with the Sunni hadith collections, and my familiarity with the common interpretations of fiqh have all been nearly perfected. Until then, the arguments of the aspirant orientalists of USMB will make for decent target practice.


That won't be necessary. As somebody who has lived his life in a country that is mostly Christian, I've familiarized myself enough with Christianity to reject it decidedly.


I don't recall saying anything to the opposite effect.

Clean your own house.

You expect me to allow lies posted about my religion to remain uncorrected when addressing them is well within my means. That doesn't make a great deal of sense, now, does it?

Luke 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

And they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul; That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. And they sware unto the LORD with a loud voice, and with shouting, and with trumpets, and with cornets. And all Judah rejoiced at the oath: for they had sworn with all their heart, and sought him with their whole desire; and he was found of them: and the LORD gave them rest round about. - 2 Chronicles 15:12-15 (KJV)

Admiral Effort. We're You speaking for Islam, as a authority of the Church, the meaning would be significant. We know this to not be the case though Kalam. I renounce Murder in God's Name, by it by Jew, Christian, or Muslim. I am not a Fundamentalist Kalam, and Will not Kill without Justification, no matter Who would require it of Me. You Quote 2 Chronicles 15:12-15, disarmed, because I Question the Source, be it the hand of the Man that Translated it, or originally wrote it, or the intentions of the One that originally spoke it. Scripture does remind Us to Seek God First in All Things, To seek Him In Sincerity of Heart, to Seek Him through Conscience. If We ever find Harmony in this, We will not be Enemies, but both Earnestly part of the solution. Putting God Above All Else, does Place Him Above the Written Word, which is always in danger of being corrupted. I Respect Scripture, Yet I will choose Conscience having to act in conflict, further study, given the choice. Confirmation through something being confirmed elsewhere is helpful. There are snares in the written word by design, that I'm sure you are aware of. There are Multiple Applications, there is Relevance, there is Context.

Islam has adopted tome of the Traditions and Belief's from Judaism. I find Fault with not being able to be a Faithful witness in Court, testifying for a Non Believer, against a Believer, knowing that the Believer is at Fault. You both share that Hypocrisy. God has decreed Honest impartial Testimony, not a Kangaroo Court. We have also abandoned Slavery, I recommend You consider doing the same. We recognize Freedom of Religion to be an Unalienable Right, Conversion is a Right and is not punishable by death in a Free Society.

 

[Kalam]

Yes it is wise for you to get used to total failure in the relative privacy and anonymity of internet chat forum, before you fail out in public in a grandiose way.

I've been patiently waiting for you to begin your utter humiliation of me since you began posting here.

Wrong thread ,
this is a thread for someone to prove unequivocal none Muslims are innocent according to Islamic scripture.
You have be unable to get in the neighborhood ,let alone the street with your "logical bombs of rationality "
Wrong board.
You'll be wanting
Bondage | BDSM Forums | Fetish, Bondage, and BDSM Message Boards

No thank you, but I appreciate that you went searching through your internet bookmarks for my sake.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.

 

[mal]

Noor Faleh Almaleki Dies After Being Hit by Car Allegedly Driven by DAd

^Another Quality Example of the Tolerance and Love that is Islam.



peace...

 

[mal]

His Daughter OBVIOUSLY wasn't "Innocent".



peace...

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

"Kalam" you can learn every language on earth and study every scrape of Islamic scripture .
In the final analysis you will find no daylight between what I say Islam is, and what Islams "prophet" says Islam is.

 

[Kalam]

Admiral Effort. We're You speaking for Islam, as a authority of the Church, the meaning would be significant. We know this to not be the case though Kalam.

Sorry; I'm confused. What isn't the case?

I renounce Murder in God's Name, by it by Jew, Christian, or Muslim. I am not a Fundamentalist Kalam, and Will not Kill without Justification, no matter Who would require it of Me.

That's reassuring, I guess. I'm not sure what the point of mentioning this was, though. Is it your contention that Islam promotes murder and killing without justification?

You Quote 2 Chronicles 15:12-15, disarmed, because I Question the Source, be it the hand of the Man that Translated it, or originally wrote it, or the intentions of the One that originally spoke it. Scripture does remind Us to Seek God First in All Things, To seek Him In Sincerity of Heart, to Seek Him through Conscience. If We ever find Harmony in this, We will not be Enemies, but both Earnestly part of the solution. Putting God Above All Else, does Place Him Above the Written Word, which is always in danger of being corrupted. I Respect Scripture, Yet I will choose Conscience having to act in conflict, further study, given the choice. Confirmation through something being confirmed elsewhere is helpful. There are snares in the written word by design, that I'm sure you are aware of. There are Multiple Applications, there is Relevance, there is Context.

There certainly are, much to the chagrin of feeble discussants such as Mr. F who rely largely on quote-mining. My intention was to illustrate the fact that it is just as easy, if not easier, to make the Bible seem like an abhorrent call for death to unbelievers as it is to do so with the sublime Qur'an.

Islam has adopted tome of the Traditions and Belief's from Judaism. I find Fault with not being able to be a Faithful witness in Court, testifying for a Non Believer, against a Believer, knowing that the Believer is at Fault. You both share that Hypocrisy.

The Qur'an does not comment on the permissibility of the testimony of non-Muslims, so whether or not such testimony is acceptable is left to our discretion. The Hanafi and Hanbali jurisprudential interpretations accept the testimony of non-Muslims (Hanbali with stipulations.) I see nothing wrong with allowing it as long as the individuals are trustworthy.

God has decreed Honest impartial Testimony, not a Kangaroo Court. We have also abandoned Slavery, I recommend You consider doing the same.

Slavery is not permissible; it is clear from the words of the Qur'an that a scheme was established by Islam to gradually lead to the abolition of slavery.

It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteous is the one who believes in Allah, and the Last Day, and the angels and the Book and the prophets, and gives away wealth out of love for Him to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask and to set slaves free and keeps up prayer and pays the poor-rate; and the performers of their promise when they make a promise, and the patient in distress and affliction and in the time of conflict. These are they who are truthful; and these are they who keep their duty. - 2:177​

And let those who cannot find a match keep chaste, until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And those of your slaves who ask for a writing (of freedom), give them the writing, if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you. And compel not your slave-girls to prostitution when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail goods of this world’s life. And whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. - 24:33​

We recognize Freedom of Religion to be an Unalienable Right, Conversion is a Right and is not punishable by death in a Free Society.

There is no compulsion in religion -- the right way is clearly distinct from error. So whoever disbelieves in the devil and believes in Allah, he indeed lays hold on the firmest handle which shall never break. And Allah is Hearing, Knowing. - 2:256

Narrated Jabir: A bedouin came to the Prophet and said, "Please take my Pledge of allegiance for Islam." So the Prophet took from him the Pledge of allegiance for Islam. He came the next day with a fever and said to the Prophet "Cancel my pledge." But the Prophet refused and when the bedouin went away (from Medina), the Prophet said, "Medina is like a pair of bellows: It expels its impurities and brightens and clears its good."

- Sahih Bukhari, Ahkaam ("Judgments"), no. 323​

 

[Kalam]

"Kalam" you can learn every language on earth and study every scrape of Islamic scripture .
In the final analysis you will find no daylight between what I say Islam is, and what Islams "prophet" says Islam is.

I've already determined that you're incorrect based on what I do know, which I daresay is more than you if we're strictly speaking in terms of scripture.

 

[Kalam]

Noor Faleh Almaleki Dies After Being Hit by Car Allegedly Driven by DAd

^Another Quality Example of the Tolerance and Love that is Islam.



peace...

His Daughter OBVIOUSLY wasn't "Innocent".



peace...

What makes you so sure that this man's actions were valid in Islam and that his daughter was deserving of death according to scripture? As they say, put up or shut up. I'll go ahead and bet ten dollars that you fail to provide scripture or that Fitnah attempts to do so for you.



...سلام

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

"Kalam" you can learn every language on earth and study every scrape of Islamic scripture .
In the final analysis you will find no daylight between what I say Islam is, and what Islams "prophet" says Islam is.

I've already determined that you're incorrect based on what I do know, which I daresay is more than you if we're strictly speaking in terms of scripture.

I'll address the misguided among my fellow believers when my knowledge of Arabic, my familiarity with the Sunni hadith collections, and my familiarity with the common interpretations of fiqh have all been nearly perfected. Until then, the arguments of the aspirant orientalists of USMB will make for decent target practice.

You are putting the cart before the horse.
Study it all, the final step will be you have to be honest about what it all means.
Then you will find me looking back at you in the mirror.

 

[Kalam]

"Kalam" you can learn every language on earth and study every scrape of Islamic scripture .
In the final analysis you will find no daylight between what I say Islam is, and what Islams "prophet" says Islam is.

I've already determined that you're incorrect based on what I do know, which I daresay is more than you if we're strictly speaking in terms of scripture.

I'll address the misguided among my fellow believers when my knowledge of Arabic, my familiarity with the Sunni hadith collections, and my familiarity with the common interpretations of fiqh have all been nearly perfected. Until then, the arguments of the aspirant orientalists of USMB will make for decent target practice.

You are putting the cart before the horse.
Study it all, the final step will be you have to be honest about what it all means.
Then you will find me looking back at you in the mirror.

TBH, my studies have lead me almost exclusively in the opposite direction. I was not an observant or religious person when I began truly studying Islam some time ago; I began with few preconceptions and submitted myself to the clear word of Allah (SWT) as recorded in the Qur'an. If I had found that the teachings of Islam were identical to what you seem to think they are, I would probably no longer be a Muslim today.

 

[Intense]

Admiral Effort. We're You speaking for Islam, as a authority of the Church, the meaning would be significant. We know this to not be the case though Kalam.

Sorry; I'm confused. What isn't the case?

I renounce Murder in God's Name, by it by Jew, Christian, or Muslim. I am not a Fundamentalist Kalam, and Will not Kill without Justification, no matter Who would require it of Me.

That's reassuring, I guess. I'm not sure what the point of mentioning this was, though. Is it your contention that Islam promotes murder and killing without justification?


There certainly are, much to the chagrin of feeble discussants such as Mr. F who rely largely on quote-mining. My intention was to illustrate the fact that it is just as easy, if not easier, to make the Bible seem like an abhorrent call for death to unbelievers as it is to do so with the sublime Qur'an.


The Qur'an does not comment on the permissibility of the testimony of non-Muslims, so whether or not such testimony is acceptable is left to our discretion. The Hanafi and Hanbali jurisprudential interpretations accept the testimony of non-Muslims (Hanbali with stipulations.) I see nothing wrong with allowing it as long as the individuals are trustworthy.

God has decreed Honest impartial Testimony, not a Kangaroo Court. We have also abandoned Slavery, I recommend You consider doing the same.

Slavery is not permissible; it is clear from the words of the Qur'an that a scheme was established by Islam to gradually lead to the abolition of slavery.

It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteous is the one who believes in Allah, and the Last Day, and the angels and the Book and the prophets, and gives away wealth out of love for Him to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask and to set slaves free and keeps up prayer and pays the poor-rate; and the performers of their promise when they make a promise, and the patient in distress and affliction and in the time of conflict. These are they who are truthful; and these are they who keep their duty. - 2:177​

And let those who cannot find a match keep chaste, until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And those of your slaves who ask for a writing (of freedom), give them the writing, if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you. And compel not your slave-girls to prostitution when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail goods of this world’s life. And whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. - 24:33​

We recognize Freedom of Religion to be an Unalienable Right, Conversion is a Right and is not punishable by death in a Free Society.

There is no compulsion in religion -- the right way is clearly distinct from error. So whoever disbelieves in the devil and believes in Allah, he indeed lays hold on the firmest handle which shall never break. And Allah is Hearing, Knowing. - 2:256

Narrated Jabir: A bedouin came to the Prophet and said, "Please take my Pledge of allegiance for Islam." So the Prophet took from him the Pledge of allegiance for Islam. He came the next day with a fever and said to the Prophet "Cancel my pledge." But the Prophet refused and when the bedouin went away (from Medina), the Prophet said, "Medina is like a pair of bellows: It expels its impurities and brightens and clears its good."

- Sahih Bukhari, Ahkaam ("Judgments"), no. 323​

Kalam: Sorry; I'm confused. What isn't the case?

You speak for Yourself, Not All of Islam.


Kalam:That's reassuring, I guess. I'm not sure what the point of mentioning this was, though. Is it your contention that Islam promotes murder and killing without justification?

Justification, meaning Self Defense, Just Cause, No Alternative. Defensive Action.


Kalam: There certainly are, much to the chagrin of feeble discussants such as Mr. F who rely largely on quote-mining. My intention was to illustrate the fact that it is just as easy, if not easier, to make the Bible seem like an abhorrent call for death to unbelievers as it is to do so with the sublime Qur'an.

Jews and Christians No Longer Kill People because of The Bible or Religion. Islam does. Google the History of Terrorism in India. If the Bible told Me to Kill You because Of Your Faith, I would Choose My Faith Through Conscience and Refuse the Bible. I would Question It's Validity on the Matter. There are Verses that would Nullify the Charge. The Bible, The Koran are both Spiritual Swords, Unique to It's Possessor. Time teaches Us all that Kalam.
One of the dangers in Fundamentalism of either sort is getting caught up in such a snare, worse is leading or teaching others to Follow in the mis direction.


Kalam: I see nothing wrong with allowing it as long as the individuals are trustworthy.

From The Medina Charter, maybe Just a matter of Interpretation or Circumstance.

(14) A believer shall not slay a believer for the sake of an unbeliever, nor shall he aid an unbeliever against a believer.

(15) God’s protection is one, the least of them may give protection to a stranger on their behalf. Believers are friends one to the other to the exclusion of outsiders.

"Constitution" of Medina (Dustur al-Madinah)


Kalam: Slavery is not permissible; it is clear from the words of the Qur'an that a scheme was established by Islam to gradually lead to the abolition of slavery.

So No Muslims openly own Slaves today? If so, I'm really glad to hear that. If not so, sooner rather than later is my advice.



Kalam: There is no compulsion in religion -- the right way is clearly distinct from error. So whoever disbelieves in the devil and believes in Allah, he indeed lays hold on the firmest handle which shall never break. And Allah is Hearing, Knowing. - 2:256

The Killing needs to stop. Asa hard as the rejection is, you get over it.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

I began my study of Islam to understand how Islam had been "hijacked and twisted" like I heard on TV and read in the media after 9/11.
I waited and waited for the details, the details never came.
So I sought out the details for myself.
I now know,
they never are coming.

 

[Kalam]

You speak for Yourself, Not All of Islam.

No living man or woman can speak for all of Islam. I defend Islam using Islam as it's presented in the Qur'an and legitimate ahadith.

Justification, meaning Self Defense, Just Cause, No Alternative. Defensive Action.

Coming to the defense of others and ending persecution are just causes for warfare and jihad bil sayf if those goals cannot be accomplished peaceably. Wouldn't you agree?

Jews and Christians No Longer Kill People because of The Bible or Religion.

While largely true, your statement has some very serious exceptions.

Islam does. Google the History of Terrorism in India. If the Bible told Me to Kill You because Of Your Faith, I would Choose My Faith Through Conscience and Refuse the Bible. I would Question It's Validity on the Matter. There are Verses that would Nullify the Charge. The Bible, The Koran are both Spiritual Swords, Unique to It's Possessor. Time teaches Us all that Kalam.

A Muslim must acknowledge the legitimacy of the entire Qur'an as the unaltered word of Allah (SWT.) Many Christians rightfully doubt the legitimacy of parts of the Bible. That is the difference.

One of the dangers in Fundamentalism of either sort is getting caught up in such a snare, worse is leading or teaching others to Follow in the mis direction.

As I said, there is no ignoring the Qur'an. If you disagree with what it says, you should not consider youself a Muslim. There are correct interpretations that are being adopted by an increasing number of people, and incorrects interpretations that are clung to by a significant number of others. Hope for your and my sake that the correct interpretation prevails.

From The Medina Charter, maybe Just a matter of Interpretation or Circumstance.

It should be noted that the charter raises the loyal non-Muslims of Madinah, the Jewish tribes, to the level of true believers; "they are one ummah." The charter does not refer to testimony or judicial proceedings other than mentioning that matters requiring judgment are to be referred to the Messenger (SAWS.)

So No Muslims openly own Slaves today? If so, I'm really glad to hear that. If not so, sooner rather than later is my advice.

None are true believers and none do so with the backing of the Qur'an or Islam.

The Killing needs to stop. Asa hard as the rejection is, you get over it.

I do not nor have I ever advocated death as a punishment for apostasy.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

No living man or woman can speak for all of Islam. I defend Islam using Islam as it's presented in the Qur'an and legitimate ahadith.
.

And what makes you the judge of legitimate hadith?
It must be in harmony with your grotesque "interpretation" of the Quran
throwing the rest of scripture under the camel.

Kind of transparent.

You are free to understand Islam as you wish, the problem is, so many "misunderstand" Islam in exactly the same way, it kind of makes you look a little , forgive me ,crazy or full of shit.

 

[Kalam]

And what makes you the judge of legitimate hadith?
It must be in harmony with your grotesque "interpretation" of the Quran
throwing the rest of scripture under the camel.

Kind of transparent.

I'll accept most ahadith from the 6 major Sunni collections unless it can be demonstrated that a particular hadith, such as the hadith concerning the age of Aishah, is inaccurate. To call an interpretation that is based wholly on the words of the Qur'an and common rationality "grotesque"... well, that's just ridiculous.

You are free to understand Islam as you wish, the problem is, so many "misunderstand" Islam in exactly the same way, it kind of makes you look a little , forgive me ,crazy or full of shit.

You are wrongfully attempting to give people the impression that most Muslims are Wahhabis. Browse the fatawa and articles on Islamonline and you'll find that even "conservatives" in the Islamic community tend to agree with many of the interpretations I've put forth here.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

And what makes you the judge of legitimate hadith?
It must be in harmony with your grotesque "interpretation" of the Quran
throwing the rest of scripture under the camel.

Kind of transparent.

I'll accept most ahadith from the 6 major Sunni collections unless it can be demonstrated that a particular hadith, such as the hadith concerning the age of Aishah, is inaccurate. To call an interpretation that is based wholly on the words of the Qur'an and common rationality "grotesque"... well, that's just ridiculous.

You are free to understand Islam as you wish, the problem is, so many "misunderstand" Islam in exactly the same way, it kind of makes you look a little , forgive me ,crazy or full of shit.

You are wrongfully attempting to give people the impression that most Muslims are Wahhabis. Browse the fatawa and articles on Islamonline and you'll find that even "conservatives" in the Islamic community tend to agree with many of the interpretations I've put forth here.

Yeah we can tell that by how you continually link to it as proof the Ibn Kathirs tafsir is wholly unreliable and how you use it to explain in full detail for the meaning of fitnah,

mischief and proof that non believers are innocent.

If your interpretation is so widely accepted, there must be hundreds , nah thousands of fatwas that state Ibn Kathir is a heritic whos tasfir should be avoided .

I hate to appeal to number or popularity but since you brought it up

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