Islam forbids

[THE LIGHT]

However, the question still stands. As a notable descendant of Mohammad, should he not be a good representative of his relative's and fellow brother's religion?

No. Want to know another notable descendant of Muhammad (SAW)? Brooke Shields. You and I probably are, too. It doesn't really mean anything.

"The longer ago somebody lived, the more descendants a person is likely to have today. Humphrys estimates that Muhammad, the founder of Islam, appears on the family tree of every person in the Western world."
​

Does your family have royal roots? - More health news- msnbc.com

Really? Can I sell you some of my ocean front property in oklahoma with it?

 

[Kalam]

Really? Can I sell you some of my ocean front property in oklahoma with it?

If you're planning on making a point about how some distant relative of Muhammad is a perfect Muslim merely by virtue of his ancestry, I'd go ahead and do it.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

The president of al-Azhar University, Ahmed Omar Hasham, said that Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance and stability. "It does not call for aggression or injustice. False

You heard it here first, folks. Fitnuts knows more about Islam than both the Grand Imam and the President of the most important and respected Sunni Islamic university in the world.

You didn't seem to have much respect for the books certified by the institution .
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1367626-post356.html
Umdat al-Salik wa Uddat al-Nasik

The western meaning of justice and the Islamic meaning of justice are to different things Islam Islam calls for the eradication of all none muslims this goal is an obligation and deceit is merely a tactic. Disbelief is a direct assault on Huquq Allah "Rights of god" And must be righted by muslms.

8:39

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do
2:193.
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc193

Index of /what-is-islam/quran/noble

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

You heard it here first, folks. Fitnuts knows more about Islam than both the Grand Imam and the President of the most important and respected Sunni Islamic university in the world.

No. He's just calling them liars. They are probably more than smart enough to know that what they said is untrue.

Accusations of dishonesty are typically accompanied by specific evidence of the person in question being dishonest. I guess that doesn't apply to Muslims. How nice it must be to "prove" any Muslim wrong simply by declaring him a liar!

The likelihood of a muslims lying is always a consideration to consider.
From an excellent piece on Islamic deceptive practices.


“… ‘it is obligatory for a [Muslim] student to give a positive interpretation to every utterance of his [Muslim] brothers that seems to be wrong until he has exhausted seventy excuses. No one is incapable of this except a failure.’” [see text at note 22, infra]

Snip
“2. BACKGROUND

“A phenomenon confronting [ U.S. ] intelligence analysts is the Teflon effect in Islamic scholarship. Islamic scholarship appears to employ “positive bias.” [This is] resulting in a curious lack of critical analysis and objective criticism by mainstream Islamic scholars and authors when addressing Islamic topics.
“a. In those instances where penetrating, objective research is conducted by Islamic authors, the authors have been subjected to threats of violence, disproportionate to the level of their inquiry. Criticism of Islam and Muslims frequently results in a surprisingly shrill and disproportionate hue and cry, suppressing critical inquiries into Islamic topics. [see note 1, at end of this briefing paper]
“b. A source for this phenomenon lies in the Islamic Sacred Law.

“3. DISCUSSION

“a. Islamic Law.
“(1) Islamic law is comprised of the Koran [see note 2], the Hadiths [see note 3], and consensus and reasoning by analogy [see note 4].
“(2) Within the Sunni tradition, a primary legal reference is Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri’s Reliance of the Traveler: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law. [see note 5]
“(3) These sources provide general guidelines for representing Islam in public writings. The provisions cited below exert pressures inducing bias, obstructing objectivity, and creating a Teflon effect which is intolerant of derogatory comments concerning Islam or Muslims.
“(4) It is logical to infer that the more learned, the more devout [is an] Islamic writer or his reviewer, the more closely the writer adheres to Islamic precepts. Conversely, the more secular [is] the Islamic writer, and the reviewer of his works, the less likely he is bound to these religious precepts.
“(5) Accredited Islamic scholarship is bound by the strictures of the Koran, the Hadiths and Islamic Law (reflected in said Reliance of the Traveler), and specific guidance is provided concerning the revelation of the “shameful points” of Islam.
“b. The Koran. A recurring theme in the Koran is the overlooking of the faults, evil deeds or lesser sins of devout Muslims. [see note 6]
“c. The Hadiths. There is a similar theme of over-looking the faults of the pious and devout [Muslims] in the Hadiths. [see note 7]
“d. The Reliance of the Traveler. The following passage, taken from Reliance of the Traveler, quotes the Koran and the Hadiths, and [such law]
forms a powerful influence over Islamic scholarship.

“(1) Asking About Another’s Mistakes. Objective inquiry, and the analysis based on objective inquiry, is restrained in Islam. Historical research, historical accounts, investigative journalism and other lines of literary inquiry into Islam may be influenced, by authors faithful to the following [Islamic law]:

“’…It is forbidden to ask about another’s errors and blunders in order to tell them they have made a mistake or to embarrass them, being unlawful because it entails an injury to another and belittling him in front of people.
“’But when one’s asking about mistakes is to learn or teach, to test or sharpen students’ minds or make them reflect, then it is recommended and desirable, because it facilitates the comprehension of religious knowledge.’ [see note 8]


http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/AlexandraParis60203.htm

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Its a plain fact, one you refuse to acknowledge.

Prove that the Qur'an refers to abrogation of itself. Prove that we're supposed to completely ignore the context of both 2:106 and 16:101.

prove it to you?
Not possible .You are immune to reason and fact proof.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1359548-post196.html
Prove it in general? its common knowledge.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/1490020-post764.html

An example of the abrogation: there are 124 versus that call for tolerance and patience which have been canceled and replaced by this one single verse:

9.5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Quran, there are only 43 Surahs that were not affected by this concept.

This doctrine is based on the Quran, where Allah allegedly says in Surah 2:106. Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allâh is able to do all things?

Also, in Surah
16:101. And when We change a Verse [of the Qur'ân, i.e. cancel (abrogate) its order] in place of another, and Allâh knows the best of what He sends down, they (the disbelievers) say: "You (O Muhammad SAW) are but a Muftari! (forger, liar)." Nay, but most of them know not.
The Noble Quran : Surat 16

The Abrogator and the Abrogated
In their attempt to polish Islam's image, Muslim activists usually quote the Meccan passages of the Quran that call for love, peace and patience. The deliberately hid the Medenan passages that call for killing, decapitating, and maiming.

Muslim activists also fail to reveal to people in the West a major doctrine in Islam called "al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh" (the Abrogator and the Abrogated). This simply means that when a recent verse in the Quran gives a contradictory view to another verse that preceded it (chronologically), the recent verse abrogates (cancels and replaces) the old verse and renders it null and void.

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

 

[Kalam]

You didn't seem to have much respect for the books certified by the institution.

I criticized you for quoting from Reliance of the Traveler when the Qur'an was being discussed. However, you're attempting to divert the discussion away from your most recent display of idiocy. Let's focus on why you feel that you're qualified to categorically dismiss the statements of Al-Azhar's Grand Imam regarding the fundamental precepts of Islam.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

You didn't seem to have much respect for the books certified by the institution.

I criticized you for quoting from Reliance of the Traveler when the Qur'an was being discussed. However, you're attempting to divert the discussion away from your most recent display of idiocy. Let's focus on why you feel that you're qualified to categorically dismiss the statements of Al-Azhar's Grand Imam regarding the fundamental precepts of Islam.

As I stated,perhaps in a manner that was unclear to you , to be precise

he is using deception to promote a false image of Islam.
Something he could not do by telling the truth

... If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it.
“’When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if the goal is permissible, and it is obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory.
“’When, for example, one is concealing a Muslim from an oppressor who asks where he is, it is obligatory to lie about him being hidden.
“’Or when a person deposits an article with one for safekeeping and an oppressor wanting to appropriate it inquires about it, it is obligatory to lie about having concealed it, for if one informs him about the article and he then seizes it, one is financially liable (to the owner) to cover the article’s cost.
“’Whether the purpose [of telling a lie] is war, settling a disagreement, or gaining sympathy of a victim legally entitled to retaliate against one, so that he will forbear to do so, it is not unlawful to lie when any of these aims can be obtained through lying.’”

“(a) Islamic scholars elaborate on this point.

“’Believers [Muslims] in a weakened stage in a non-Muslim country should forgive and be patient with people of the book [being Christians and Jews] when they insult Allah and His prophet by any means. Believers [Muslims] should lie to people of the book [Christians and Jews] to protect their lives and their religion [of Islam].’ [see note 16]

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/AlexandraParis60203p3.htm

The fact presented in the thread have proved conclusively that Islam scripturally sanctifies terrorism , injustice and genocide.

 

[Sunni Man]

The fact presented in the thread have proved conclusively that Islam scripturally sanctifies terrorism , injustice and genocide.

When was this proved conclusively ?

You really live in your own little world Fitnuts

 

[Kalam]

The likelihood of a muslims lying is always a consideration to consider.

I'm sure it is in the minds of the apostate fruitbars at "faithfreedom."

No Qur'anically-conscious Muslim is a liar. Dutiful believers are truthful:

And mix not up truth with falsehood, nor hide the truth while you know. - 2:42​

It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteous is the one who believes in Allah, and the Last Day, and the angels and the Book and the prophets, and gives away wealth out of love for Him to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask and to set slaves free and keeps up prayer and pays the poor-rate; and the performers of their promise when they make a promise, and the patient in distress and affliction and in the time of conflict. These are they who are truthful; and these are they who keep their duty. - 2:177​

The patient and the truthful, and the obedient, and those who spend and those who ask Divine protection in the morning times. - 3:17​

And whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger, they are with those upon whom Allah has bestowed favours from among the prophets and the truthful and the faithful and the righteous, and a goodly company are they! - 4:69​

Allah will say: This is a day when their truth will profit the truthful ones. For them are Gardens wherein flow rivers abiding therein for ever. Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Allah. That is the mighty achievement. - 5:119​

O you who believe, keep your duty to Allah and be with the truthful. - 9:119​

That Allah may reward the truthful for their truth, and chastise the hypocrites, if He pleases, or turn to them (mercifully). Surely Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful. - 33:24​

Surely the men who submit and the women who submit, and the believing men and the believing women, and the truthful men and the truthful women, and the patient men and the patient women, and the humble men and the humble women, and the charitable men and the charitable women, and the fasting men and the fasting women, and the men who guard their chastity and the women who guard, and the men who remember Allah much and the women who remember -- Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a mighty reward. - 33:35​

And those who believe in Allah and His messengers, they are the truthful and the faithful ones with their Lord. They have their reward and their light. And those who disbelieve and reject Our messages, they are the inmates of hell. - 57:19​

 

[Kalam]

he is using deception to promote a false image of Islam.

Prove specifically that this man was lying.

 

[Kalam]

Prove it in general? its common knowledge.


This doctrine is based on the Quran, where Allah allegedly says in Surah 2:106.
Also, in Surah
16:101.

How thick must you be to repeatedly post something that has conclusively been shown to be false?

The argument for abrogation has no basis in either of these verses.

 

[Liability]

Prove it in general? its common knowledge.


This doctrine is based on the Quran, where Allah allegedly says in Surah 2:106.
Also, in Surah
16:101.

How thick must you be to repeatedly post something that has conclusively been shown to be false?

The argument for abrogation has no basis in either of these verses.

Your contention, your mere claim, that you have "conclusively" proved anything is evidence that you are untruthful.

You have YET to defeat the rational and reasonable interpretation of the rather clear verses cited by Mr. F regarding abrogation.


You yourself HAVE admitted that there some passages of the Qur'an do contradict other passages. (In fairness, you may not even comprehend that you have admitted as much, but you have.)

If there are contradcitions, both cannot be simultaneously true. Rationality and logic suggest (as do the verses cited by Mr. F.) that subsequent verses abrogate the prior ones since it makes no sense to believe that subsequent verses which contradict earlier ones are the invalid ones. {If the subsequent verses were invalid -- and come later -- why would Allah have imparted them in the first place?}

Your thinking remains addled because you are unable to use logic, Kalam.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

The likelihood of a muslims lying is always a consideration to consider.

I'm sure it is in the minds of the apostate fruitbars at "faithfreedom."

No Qur'anically-conscious Muslim is a liar. Dutiful believers are truthful:

And mix not up truth with falsehood, nor hide the truth while you know. - 2:42​

It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteous is the one who believes in Allah, and the Last Day, and the angels and the Book and the prophets, and gives away wealth out of love for Him to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask and to set slaves free and keeps up prayer and pays the poor-rate; and the performers of their promise when they make a promise, and the patient in distress and affliction and in the time of conflict. These are they who are truthful; and these are they who keep their duty. - 2:177​

The patient and the truthful, and the obedient, and those who spend and those who ask Divine protection in the morning times. - 3:17​

And whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger, they are with those upon whom Allah has bestowed favours from among the prophets and the truthful and the faithful and the righteous, and a goodly company are they! - 4:69​

Allah will say: This is a day when their truth will profit the truthful ones. For them are Gardens wherein flow rivers abiding therein for ever. Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Allah. That is the mighty achievement. - 5:119​

O you who believe, keep your duty to Allah and be with the truthful. - 9:119​

That Allah may reward the truthful for their truth, and chastise the hypocrites, if He pleases, or turn to them (mercifully). Surely Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful. - 33:24​

Surely the men who submit and the women who submit, and the believing men and the believing women, and the truthful men and the truthful women, and the patient men and the patient women, and the humble men and the humble women, and the charitable men and the charitable women, and the fasting men and the fasting women, and the men who guard their chastity and the women who guard, and the men who remember Allah much and the women who remember -- Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a mighty reward. - 33:35​

And those who believe in Allah and His messengers, they are the truthful and the faithful ones with their Lord. They have their reward and their light. And those who disbelieve and reject Our messages, they are the inmates of hell. - 57:19​

I agree the Quran warns muslims to be truthful with other muslims' none muslims is a different story.

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 267:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "Khosrau will be ruined, and there will be no Khosrau after him, and Caesar will surely be ruined and there will be no Caesar after him, and you will spend their treasures in Allah's Cause." He called, "War is deceit'.

----------
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 268:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle called,: "War is deceit".

----------
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 269:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

The Prophet said, "War is deceit."

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Prove it in general? its common knowledge.


This doctrine is based on the Quran, where Allah allegedly says in Surah 2:106.
Also, in Surah
16:101.

How thick must you be to repeatedly post something that has conclusively been shown to be false?

The argument for abrogation has no basis in either of these verses.

You are immune to reason and fact proof.

 

[Kalam]

Your contention, your mere claim, that you have "conclusively" proved anything is evidence that you are untruthful.

You're right - the credit belongs primarily to Maulana Muhammad Ali.

You have YET to defeat the rational and reasonable interpretation of the rather clear verses cited by Mr. F regarding abrogation.

I had before you and he arrived. He has consistently failed to illustrate specifically why the refutation I've offered is illogical and continues to post (read: copy and paste) arguments based on the very passages that the refutation explains. Nothing about Fitnuts is "rational" or "reasonable" - his pitiful existence on this messageboard is singularly devoted to spreading the propaganda of Wahhabis and similar radicals and acting as if they're representative of the entire Islamic religion.

You yourself HAVE admitted that there some passages of the Qur'an do contradict other passages. (In fairness, you may not even comprehend that you have admitted as much, but you have.)

I've admitted no such thing. Show me an apparent contradiction in the Qur'an and, time permitting, I'll explain why it's a simple misinterpretation.

If there are contradcitions, both cannot be simultaneously true.

I concur. None exist...

Rationality and logic suggest (as do the verses cited by Mr. F.)

The verses cited by Fitnuts, as any honest reader of the Qur'an will conclude, refer to the abrogation of previous scriptures by the Qur'an. Again, see the explanation of 16:101 and 2:106 by Islamic leader/scholar and translator of the Qur'an, Maulana Muhammad Ali:

That certain verses of the Qur'an are abrogated by others is now an exploded theory. The two passages on which it was supposed to rest, refer, really, to the abrogation, not of the Qur'an but of the previous revelations whose place the Holy Book had taken. The first verse is contained in the sixteenth chapter (al-Nahl) - a Makkah revelation - and runs thus: "And when We change a message for a message, - and Allah knows best what He reveals - they say: Thou art only a forger" (16:101). It is a fact that details of the Islamic law were revealed at Madinah and it is in relation to these details that the theory of abrogation has been broached. Therefore, a Makkah revelation would not speak of abrogation. But the reference in the above verse is to the abrogation, not of the Qur'anic verses but of the previous Divine messages or revelations, consequent upon revelation of the Qur'an. The context shows this clearly to be the case, for the opponents are here made to say that the Prophet was a forger. He was so accused by the opponents not because he announced the abrogation of certain verses in the Qur'an but because he claimed that the Qur'an was a divine revelation which had taken the place of previous revelations. They argued that it was not a revelation at all: "Only a mortal teaches him" (16:103). According to them the whole of the Qur'an, and not merely a particular verse of it, was a forgery. The theory of abrogation, therefore, cannot be based on this verse which speaks only of one revelation or one law taking the place of another.

The other verse which is supposed to lend support to the theory runs thus: "Whatever message we abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or one like it" (2:106). A reference to the context will show that the Jews or the followers of previous revelations are here addressed. Of these it is said: "they say: We believe in that which was revealed to us; and they deny what is besides that" (2:91). So they were told that if a certain revelation was abrogated, it was only to give place to a better one. And there is mention not only of abrogation but also of something that was forgotten. The words "or cause to be forgotten" cannot refer to the Qur'an at all because no portion of it could be said to have been forgotten so as to require a new revelation in its place. There is no point in supposing that God should make the Prophet forget a verse and then reveal a new one in its place. Why not, if he really had forgotten a verse, remind him of the one forgotten? But even if it is supposed that his memory ever failed in retaining (which really never happened), that verse was quite safely preserved in writing, and the mere failure of memory could not necessitate a new revelation. That the Prophet never forgot what was recited to him is plainly stated in the Qur'an: "We shall make the recite, so thou shalt not forget" (87:6). History also bears out the fact that he never forgot any portion of the Qur'anic revelation. Sometimes the whole of a very long chapter would be revealed to him in one portion, as in the case of the sixth chapter which extends over twenty sections, but he would cause it to be written without delay, and make his companions learn it by heart, and recite it in public prayers, and that without the change of even a letter, notwithstanding the fact that he himself could not read from a written copy, nor did the written copies, as a rule, remain in his possession. It was a miracle indeed that he never forgot any portion of the Qur'an, though other things he might forget, and it is to his forgetfulness in other things that the words except what Allah pleases, in the next verse (87:7), refer. On the other hand, it is a fact that parts of the older revelations had been utterly lost and forgotten, and thus the Qur'an was needed to take the place of that which was abrogated, and that which had been forgotten by the world.​

that subsequent verses abrogate the prior ones since it makes no sense to believe that subsequent verses which contradict earlier ones are the invalid ones.

No verse abrogates any other verse. If the Qur'an was intended to be viewed through the lense of "abrogation," its chapters would have been arranged chronologically.

Your thinking remains addled because you are unable to use logic, Kalam.

I invite you to point out any unsound logic in the argument I've provided.

 

[Kalam]

I agree the Quran warns muslims to be truthful with other muslims' none muslims is a different story.

Show this to be true using the Qur'an.

 

[Kalam]

You are immune to reason and fact proof.

I accept that you're unable to find a rational basis for belief in abrogation now that 16:101 and 2:106 have been properly explained.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

These ayat set the conditions for taqiyya.

3:28. Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Auliyâ (supporters, helpers, etc.) instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by Allâh in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allâh warns you against Himself (His Punishment)[], and to Allâh is the final return.

2:173. He has forbidden you only the Maytatah (dead animals), and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that which is slaughtered as a scrifice for others than Allâh (or has been slaughtered for idols, etc., on which Allâh's Name has not been mentioned while slaughtering). But if one is forced by necessity without wilful disobedience nor transgressing due limits, then there is no sin on him. Truly, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

2:185. The month of Ramadân in which was revealed the Qur'ân, a guidance for mankind and clear proofs for the guidance and the criterion (between right and wrong). So whoever of you sights (the crescent on the first night of) the month (of Ramadân i.e. is present at his home), he must observe Saum (fasts) that month, and whoever is ill or on a journey, the same number [of days which one did not observe Saum (fasts) must be made up] from other days. Allâh intends for you ease, and He does not want to make things difficult for you. (He wants that you) must complete the same number (of days), and that you must magnify Allâh [i.e. to say Takbîr (Allâhu-Akbar; Allâh is the Most Great) on seeing the crescent of the months of Ramadân and Shawwâl] for having guided you so that you may be grateful to Him.

4:26. Allâh wishes to make clear (what is lawful and what is unlawful) to you, and to show you the ways of those before you, and accept your repentance, and Allâh is All Knower, All Wise.

16:116. And say not concerning that which your tongues put forth falsely: "This is lawful and this is forbidden," so as to invent lies against Allâh. Verily, those who invent lies against Allâh will never prosper.

22:78. And strive hard in Allâh's Cause as you ought to strive (with sincerity and with all your efforts that His Name should be superior). He has chosen you (to convey His Message of Islâmic Monotheism to mankind by inviting them to His religion, Islâm), and has not laid upon you in religion any hardship,[] it is the religion of your father Ibrahim (Abraham) (Islâmic Monotheism). It is He (Allâh) Who has named you Muslims both before and in this (the Qur'ân), that the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) may be a witness over you and you be witnesses over mankind![] So perform As Salât (Iqamat-as-Salât), give Zakât and hold fast to Allâh [i.e. have confidence in Allâh, and depend upon Him in all your affairs] He is your Maula (Patron, Lord, etc.), what an Excellent Maula (Patron, Lord, etc.) and what an Excellent Helper!

40:28. And a believing man of Fir'aun's (Pharaoh) family, who hid his faith said: "Would you kill a man because he says: My Lord is Allâh, and he has come to you with clear signs (proofs) from your Lord? And if he is a liar, upon him will be (the sin of) his lie; but if he is telling the truth, then some of that (calamity) wherewith he threatens you will befall on you." Verily, Allâh guides not one who is a Musrif (a polytheist, or a murderer who shed blood without a right, or those who commit great sins, oppressor, transgressor), a liar!

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

You are immune to reason and fact proof.

I accept that you're unable to find a rational basis for belief in abrogation now that 16:101 and 2:106 have been properly explained.

prove it to you?
Not possible .You are immune to reason and fact proof.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1359548-post196.html
Prove it in general? its common knowledge.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/1490020-post764.html

An example of the abrogation: there are 124 versus that call for tolerance and patience which have been canceled and replaced by this one single verse:

9.5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Quran, there are only 43 Surahs that were not affected by this concept.

This doctrine is based on the Quran, where Allah allegedly says in Surah 2:106. Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allâh is able to do all things?

Also, in Surah
16:101. And when We change a Verse [of the Qur'ân, i.e. cancel (abrogate) its order] in place of another, and Allâh knows the best of what He sends down, they (the disbelievers) say: "You (O Muhammad SAW) are but a Muftari! (forger, liar)." Nay, but most of them know not.
The Noble Quran : Surat 16

The Abrogator and the Abrogated
In their attempt to polish Islam's image, Muslim activists usually quote the Meccan passages of the Quran that call for love, peace and patience. The deliberately hid the Medenan passages that call for killing, decapitating, and maiming.

Muslim activists also fail to reveal to people in the West a major doctrine in Islam called "al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh" (the Abrogator and the Abrogated). This simply means that when a recent verse in the Quran gives a contradictory view to another verse that preceded it (chronologically), the recent verse abrogates (cancels and replaces) the old verse and renders it null and void.

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

 

[Liability]

Your contention, your mere claim, that you have "conclusively" proved anything is evidence that you are untruthful.

You're right - the credit belongs primarily to Maulana Muhammad Ali.

You have YET to defeat the rational and reasonable interpretation of the rather clear verses cited by Mr. F regarding abrogation.

I had before you and he arrived. He has consistently failed to illustrate specifically why the refutation I've offered is illogical and continues to post (read: copy and paste) arguments based on the very passages that the refutation explains. Nothing about Fitnuts is "rational" or "reasonable" - his pitiful existence on this messageboard is singularly devoted to spreading the propaganda of Wahhabis and similar radicals and acting as if they're representative of the entire Islamic religion.


I've admitted no such thing. Show me an apparent contradiction in the Qur'an and, time permitting, I'll explain why it's a simple misinterpretation.


I concur. None exist...


The verses cited by Fitnuts, as any honest reader of the Qur'an will conclude, refer to the abrogation of previous scriptures by the Qur'an. Again, see the explanation of 16:101 and 2:106 by Islamic leader/scholar and translator of the Qur'an, Maulana Muhammad Ali:

That certain verses of the Qur'an are abrogated by others is now an exploded theory. The two passages on which it was supposed to rest, refer, really, to the abrogation, not of the Qur'an but of the previous revelations whose place the Holy Book had taken. The first verse is contained in the sixteenth chapter (al-Nahl) - a Makkah revelation - and runs thus: "And when We change a message for a message, - and Allah knows best what He reveals - they say: Thou art only a forger" (16:101). It is a fact that details of the Islamic law were revealed at Madinah and it is in relation to these details that the theory of abrogation has been broached. Therefore, a Makkah revelation would not speak of abrogation. But the reference in the above verse is to the abrogation, not of the Qur'anic verses but of the previous Divine messages or revelations, consequent upon revelation of the Qur'an. The context shows this clearly to be the case, for the opponents are here made to say that the Prophet was a forger. He was so accused by the opponents not because he announced the abrogation of certain verses in the Qur'an but because he claimed that the Qur'an was a divine revelation which had taken the place of previous revelations. They argued that it was not a revelation at all: "Only a mortal teaches him" (16:103). According to them the whole of the Qur'an, and not merely a particular verse of it, was a forgery. The theory of abrogation, therefore, cannot be based on this verse which speaks only of one revelation or one law taking the place of another.

The other verse which is supposed to lend support to the theory runs thus: "Whatever message we abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or one like it" (2:106). A reference to the context will show that the Jews or the followers of previous revelations are here addressed. Of these it is said: "they say: We believe in that which was revealed to us; and they deny what is besides that" (2:91). So they were told that if a certain revelation was abrogated, it was only to give place to a better one. And there is mention not only of abrogation but also of something that was forgotten. The words "or cause to be forgotten" cannot refer to the Qur'an at all because no portion of it could be said to have been forgotten so as to require a new revelation in its place. There is no point in supposing that God should make the Prophet forget a verse and then reveal a new one in its place. Why not, if he really had forgotten a verse, remind him of the one forgotten? But even if it is supposed that his memory ever failed in retaining (which really never happened), that verse was quite safely preserved in writing, and the mere failure of memory could not necessitate a new revelation. That the Prophet never forgot what was recited to him is plainly stated in the Qur'an: "We shall make the recite, so thou shalt not forget" (87:6). History also bears out the fact that he never forgot any portion of the Qur'anic revelation. Sometimes the whole of a very long chapter would be revealed to him in one portion, as in the case of the sixth chapter which extends over twenty sections, but he would cause it to be written without delay, and make his companions learn it by heart, and recite it in public prayers, and that without the change of even a letter, notwithstanding the fact that he himself could not read from a written copy, nor did the written copies, as a rule, remain in his possession. It was a miracle indeed that he never forgot any portion of the Qur'an, though other things he might forget, and it is to his forgetfulness in other things that the words except what Allah pleases, in the next verse (87:7), refer. On the other hand, it is a fact that parts of the older revelations had been utterly lost and forgotten, and thus the Qur'an was needed to take the place of that which was abrogated, and that which had been forgotten by the world.​

that subsequent verses abrogate the prior ones since it makes no sense to believe that subsequent verses which contradict earlier ones are the invalid ones.

No verse abrogates any other verse. If the Qur'an was intended to be viewed through the lense of "abrogation," its chapters would have been arranged chronologically.

Your thinking remains addled because you are unable to use logic, Kalam.

I invite you to point out any unsound logic in the argument I've provided.

You, on the one hand, seem to deny (at least in your direct words) that the Qur'an contains within it any contradictory passages.

But then, later, you implicitly ACKNOWLEDGE that it DOES contain within it some contradictory passages when you attempt to EXPLAIN the contradictions.

If there were no contradictions, there would be no need for such "explanations."

You previosuly contended, for example, that some passages are supposedly literal while other passages are parables. Sure. YOU get to choose (pick and choose) which ones are to be taken literally and which ones can be 'explained" as matters of mere interpretation. But there are far too many contradictions for your facile explanations to hold water.

And I have provided a link or two previously (as to which you promptly engaged in ad hominem fallacy to disparage) showing many of the self-contradictions within the Qur'an.

Why you would need to ask me to provide the same again is -- strange -- therefore.

Here's one:

Can Angels Cause the Death of People? The Qur'an attacks those who worship anyone besides God (e.g. angels or prophets) because those can neither create, nor give life, nor cause anyone to die. Yet, the Qur'an explicitly states that one angel or several angels are causing certain people to die [Sura 4:97, 16:28, 32, 32:11].

Contradictions / Difficulties in the Qur'an

Please dispense with your ususal deflection of attacking the source. I couldn't care less what your opinion is of the source. Address, instead, the illustrated contradiction.

Then, of course, there is yet another example.

The Qur'anic verses commenting on the proper age of a girl to marry:

Qur'an Contradiction: Is there a minimum age for marriage?

Or, try this set:

Will Allah reward the good deeds of Unbelievers? S. 9:17 and 9:69 clearly say no. However, S. 99:7 implies yes. Moreover, S. 2:62 promises Christians reward for their good deeds. But S. 9:28-33; 5:17, 72-73 calls Christians idolaters, and S. 9:17 is very clear that idolaters will have no reward.

Contradictions / Difficulties in the Qur'an


Thee are SO many more. Contradictions / Difficulties in the Qur'an